5.3 changes concerning PvP

90 Orc Warrior
6055
Ever since PvP started seeing development back in Vanilla (the creation of WSG etc) there has always been a call for a form of divide between PvE and PvP. This was not an attempt to divide the community in to two sections but to prevent the best geared from one area being extremely effective in both areas. The introduction of PvP gear in TBC brought some good changes, but stacking Stamina just didn't cut it and Resilience was too flappy.

When I first read the changes to PvP gear for MoP regarding Power/Resi, I thought to myself "Oh good they're finally putting some real effort into separating PvP and PvE!", but the execution of the divide has been, quite frankly, dire. I can understand the attempt to encourage newcomers and lesser geared players into PvP to spring life back into it. It's a half-wit attempt at fixing a problem first created by the removal of Battlegroups. But it's better than nothing.

Allowing PvE players to return to PvP without the gear is not the answer to the problem that currently exists. Resilience should be static but only on PvP gear.

Resilience and Power should not be available via gems or enchants to prevent stacking, the stats should only be available from the gear. This prevents any poor gemming and enchanting by optimistic PvE players but also helps keep the progressive scale of gear active. While I feel that all players should be on par in terms of Resilience, I don't think it should come as a freebie, especially to those that possess little or no PvP gear. There is no reason for Resilience to continue increasing as the tiers go higher and the seasons pass by, but the general Stats and Power should. Power should also be capped to be equal with Resilience (ie 65%).

Putting that aside, I have real concerns for tanking specialisations as of 5.3. How does, say, a Protection Warrior in PvP gear compete with one in PvE gear? The defensive stats (dodge, parry) present on a PvE Warrior are overwhelming in comparison, not to mention basic stats. PvP Warriors will only have margainally more Resilience to boast, the divide between PvE and PvP in this instance is nearly non-existant in comparison to DPS and Healers.
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It's not fun when the PvP gear you've worked so hard to get is only useful when you zone in to an arena or a battleground. And is otherwise useless.


It's not fun when the PvE gear you've worked so hard to get is only useful when you zone in to an instance or a raid.

You see what i did there i guess...

This is never ending loop, though neither of the sides should be in advantage. Yet its hard to make it work like that.

From my point of view, PvP gear should have only PvP secondary stats, same as you dont see on raid gear PvE and PvP secondary stats as well.. It would sort a lot of things. Lowering burst in PvP gear(burst is anyway still geting nerfed bcs of the PvP), making PvP gear useless for raiding (same as PvE gear is useless for top PvP ranks at this rate).
Ppl in PvP gear would survive a lot longer in the cost of lower dmg output, while ppl in PvE gear could deal more dmg(yet this dmg would be reduced just by the PvP gear which their oponents are wearing) in the cost of having survivability of butter cube..
But i guess it feels better when blizz says"yay, we bring you fresh new pvp gear with even more stats on" than reduce the numbers of the stats.. Even if it brings even more imbalance in the game, so the cons are more than debatable..
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90 Orc Death Knight
16950
You'd need heroic gear to make raiding gear better than PvP gear for most classes.

I hardly think you'll meet heroic geared raiders in WPvP and think "!@#$, my 2.2k rating is useless now)
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90 Pandaren Rogue
4030
so if the tyrannical ELITE gear has the same stats as the tyrannical gear, WHY would we upgrade? what is the point of those items anyway? please explain
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27/03/2013 13:32Posted by Nakatoir
They are pretty much forcing us in to pve it seems, time to get that hard core raid on the go
Can you explain why you feel this way? In Battlegrounds and Arena, PvP items will trump PvE gear.
But in duels, world PvP it won't, it's illogical. How can a player playing PVE have advantage above player playing PVP?! Let us, PVP players, have advantage in raids then. Oh, you can't even imagine that, right? See? That's how you treat PvP players.
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90 Human Death Knight
12460
I have a better solution than scaling down pve gear in pvp!! :D Though I cant take credit for it as my friend came up with the idea.

The solution would be, remove pvp power and pvp resilience gems from the game. Then you would not need to scale down pve items since they could never in any way be better than pvp items since they could not socket them with pvp power/resilience. That is what makes heroic pve loot better than pvp items. The ability to gain pvp power/resilience.

But then you might say "But hey! How can I do more damage in pvp now?!". And its simple, you socket with the regular "main" stats that your class/spec needs. And for more survivability? Simply socket stamina instead!

This would sort out the "pve gear is better" and it would also make pvp gear more viable in pve! Though you'd also have to tweak a bit so that pvp power would be part of the ilvl budget, so pvp gear would not be better than pve gear. Or simply have it as it is now, always a lower ilvl :)

This would imo, sort out the problems people are complaining about.

I would love to hear everyones thoughts on this because I think its an absolutely brilliant idea!
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90 Human Paladin
16105
Can you explain why you feel this way? In Battlegrounds and Arena, PvP items will trump PvE gear.


To be fair, you did say that that honor gear would be somewhat worse then last seasons conquest gear too. I understand if people don't believe you.
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90 Troll Hunter
0
I think this thread has one of the best responses by a blue.
The issues from the impending change is Tanks, World PVP, Duels, healers.

Duels:easy to fix, make gear scale and battle fatigue work when people dueling (when 2 people duel they are already in another phase, not affected by healing, and aoe stuff).

Tanks: they said they aknowledge this and they are going to sort it out

Healers: They said pvp power effect will be augmented for healers. They can increase battle-fatigue + pvp power effect for healing (not only for healers since that would mean hybrid healing nerf).

World PvP: They will neglect this - I understand many people like this, but it's mostly casual. If you try to do WPVP, gear will not be the major factor in my opinion, as fights RARELY occur at fair terms. If you are in your precious pve gear and i jump you after you just used CDs when you are engaged with a couple of mobs without having trinket, well, gl! And really how many people have issues with WPVP? If you are annoyed, go to another server (not transfer, just get invited by a friend) - there are so many DEAD servers that you can go to.

What i dont understand is why they remove resil from gear - what are they trying to fix? So far pve gear was out of pvp (apart for some trinkets), so what's the goal here?
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90 Undead Monk
10050
27/03/2013 13:32Posted by Nakatoir
They are pretty much forcing us in to pve it seems, time to get that hard core raid on the go
Can you explain why you feel this way? In Battlegrounds and Arena, PvP items will trump PvE gear.
PvP gear offers the same stats as a PvE gear in the same item level, the things you will lose out on is set bonuses, some sockets, and maybe some socket bonuses.
Actually, the sockets come at the price of some of the iLvl budget. So even if you miss out on a socket or two, PvP gear gets some more stats as well as PvP power not being a part of the iLvl budget. :)


I can explain, because I play the game to WORLD PvP, not to do bgs/arena and rbgs.
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90 Troll Death Knight
7160

Can you explain why you feel this way? In Battlegrounds and Arena, PvP items will trump PvE gear.
But in duels, world PvP it won't, it's illogical. How can a player playing PVE have advantage above player playing PVP?! Let us, PVP players, have advantage in raids then. Oh, you can't even imagine that, right? See? That's how you treat PvP players.


This


Can you explain why you feel this way? In Battlegrounds and Arena, PvP items will trump PvE gear.

Actually, the sockets come at the price of some of the iLvl budget. So even if you miss out on a socket or two, PvP gear gets some more stats as well as PvP power not being a part of the iLvl budget. :)


I can explain, because I play the game to WORLD PvP, not to do bgs/arena and rbgs.


And this

So what you are effectively saying is....play arena and BG or gtfo and go pve?
Edited by Xsadia on 27/03/2013 15:17 GMT
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90 Human Rogue
9260
Can you explain why you feel this way? In Battlegrounds and Arena, PvP items will trump PvE gear.


Because PvE gear will be BiS if you don't change something. Which means that PvPers will be forced to PvE to get the best gear.

Goes directly against something you promised at the start of this expansion; "PvP players won't have to do PvE."
Edited by Sharein on 27/03/2013 15:27 GMT
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90 Night Elf Monk
8965
These changes are brilliant imo.
The base resi will make sure that new PvPers - may they be newly dinged or PvE:ers trying out PvP - can still be relatively competitive compared to fully PvP geared people (or at least they won't get 1-shot).
As for the extra sockets: as Nakatoir says they are counted into the ilvl budget and will thereby have less in other stats. And let's be honest, a neck and/or a ringwith 2 sockets is hardly gamebreaking. They are slightly better, but when it all adds up it is very neglectible. It would have been a completely different story if the weapons or trinkets would have been superior- they are actually gamechanging.

As for world PvP/duels: As much as I love world PvP and duels, no one can say that any of these have ever been even close to balanced for many years (if ever). This will increase the imblance, but I think it is better if the focus balance on the parts of PvP that can actually be balanced.

There are so much elitism here from people that has hardly stepped into an arena. Stop pretending like PvE doesn't require any sort of skill and that PvE:ers are crappy players. Guess what; your 1550 achievment doesn't require any skill either. Respect the fact that there are more than one side of the game and that these guys also want to take part in PvP from time to time.

TL:DR: This change is awesome for competitive PvP and will make it a lost easier for new players to start PvPing, thus (hopefully) increasing the participation in arenas/rbgs.
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Community
Because PvE gear will be BiS if you don't change something. Which means that PvPers will be forced to PvE to get the best gear.
Only in world PvP, but our developers are already looking into solutions for this.

Also, this is the Arena and Rated Battleground forum, if you wish to discuss the World PvP aspects of this change, please do so in this thread: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7171277166

27/03/2013 14:48Posted by Mírion
To be fair, you did say that that honor gear would be somewhat worse then last seasons conquest gear too. I understand if people don't believe you.
Well, if you won't believe me there is a blog that states quite clearly that in instanced PvP such as Battlegrounds and Arena, PvP gear will be BiS. I quoted this previously in the thread from the PvP Gear in Patch 5.3 blog — "Even Honor gear, with its considerable amount of PvP Power, will provide more damage in PvP than normal and Heroic raid gear."
Edited by Nakatoir on 27/03/2013 15:54 GMT
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90 Human Paladin
16105
27/03/2013 15:49Posted by Nakatoir
Well, if you won't believe me there is a blog that states quite clearly that in instanced PvP such as Battlegrounds and Arena, PvP gear will be BiS.


I've been posting for this change for days now ;) Myself I love it because gearing isn't a part I enjoy myself.

It was just posting a thought on why people are against this to start with. Myself I know that PvP gear will be the best but I'm a bit worried about all the gems slots in the PvE gear and the fact that reslience gems are still in the game.
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90 Tauren Druid
11505
I hope youre right Nakatoir. :)
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90 Human Rogue
9260
Just make it so that you can't put resilience gems/PvP power gems into PvE gear gem sockets.
Edited by Sharein on 27/03/2013 16:00 GMT
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Community
27/03/2013 15:54Posted by Mírion
It was just posting a thought on why people are against this to start with. Myself I know that PvP gear will be the best but I'm a bit worried about all the gems slots in the PvE gear and the fact that reslience gems are still in the game.
Actually, this is something I addressed in an earlier post. The sockets of PvE items are a part of the iLvl budget, so if an item has more sockets it generally has less stats when unsocketed. The PvP power on the PvP gear is not a part of the iLvl budget. You can also use your sockets to gear for PvP power and resilience, those gems are not restricted to PvE gear only. :p
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90 Tauren Druid
11505
Just make it so that you can't put resilience gems/PvP power gems into PvE gear gem sockets.


good idea
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