5.3 changes concerning PvP

90 Dwarf Warrior
7250
we do fight in arena and instanced rbgs for a gear so we can own in world
world pvp is the thing that is fun for me, this new patch notes it's like a /slap and /spit at me they say pvp gear should be the best to do pvp, yet it seems that they again want to pvp player to stay in instanced zone out of world :(
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can`t agree more. ppl with pve gear should be at a gigantonormous disadvantage vs a player with pvp gear.


Can't agree any less tbh. In bgs and arenas, sure PvP geared players should have an advantage...but not a massive one as they are probably more skilled at killing players than dragons anyway!. In a dungeon, PvE should have an advantage over PvP, but again, maybe not a massive one. Knowledge is power and in both circumstances, this knowledge should be the advantage as opposed to out statting someone for a cheap win. In the actual world, both PvE and PvP should be similar. Afterall, its shared between both types of players. Questers shouldn't have to go questing in pvp gear if they don't want to, in fear of being ganked. (the other side of the coin). SO if everyone has a baseline 65% resilience in the world...how does that restrict world pvp? Surely everyone can fancy their chances or defend themselves. World pvp is NOT picking on someone lower or less geared than you.

I like both sides of the game, and in my eyes, wow just opened up. I agree its still too early to really comment on this, we don't know if pvp gear will get boosted with extra slots, or wether the pvp power stat will compensate enough etc etc. But if the whole difference in gear becomes simply a choice how you wish to attain it, then more for the good I think.
Edited by Sláine on 25/03/2013 11:52 GMT
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90 Human Paladin
16105
can`t agree more. ppl with pve gear should be at a gigantonormous disadvantage vs a player with pvp gear.


Why? I want more people to start doing PvP not less, if there's more people doing BGs and arenas it means that Blizzard will pay more attention to PvP. If you like Bgs it usually leads in to them wanting to try rated PvP eventually which means more people in arenas.

Win-win really, there's nothing to be afraid of, maybe you'll lose some BGs to PvE geared people, so what? As long as they don't have an advantage of using PvE gear I'm more then happy if they play BGs or arenas since it's just good for me.
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90 Human Mage
8195
Keep base res at 40%, wearing full pvp gear = 25% more base res.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
7885
It might indeed not promote World PVP, let's hope they have a fix for that. More changes and a blog on the current changes should be here soon.


Judging from the twitter, they are aware of the impact this will have on WPvP, at least on the level that it will be more desireable for WPvP players to PvE for their gear than PvE. But Blizzards stance on it appears to be:

1) The damage to WPvP is worth encouraging PvE players to engage in PvP. Presumably the main reason for this change is to get more players doing both PvP and PvE - so PvErs do not feel excluded from PvP.

Whether PvPers are excluded from PvE is debateable - I think that with the exception of LFR, which is kinda like Random BGs, they are, since boss fights essentially become a DPS race and PvP power/resil is useless.

2) Massive WPvP fights are no longer viable due to realm populations being unbalanced. They most likely intend to shift the importance of WPvP into instanced PvP, and promote the latter at the cost of the former.

Of course, everyone does what they enjoy, so I understand that it doesn't concern those players who are not into WPvP, hoewever WPvP is far from dead on several servers, and still has large active communities, and I think these changes are not beneficial for them.
Edited by Shágon on 25/03/2013 13:13 GMT
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Community
23/03/2013 11:35Posted by Thornass
One minor concern would be World PvP. If the item level of PvP gear is only 496, PvE gear might be very dominant here. To be fair with you though, I'm not that bothered with World PvP in the first place, so don't mind this at all.
We are well aware that this is a concern that has arisen from players regarding the recently announced changes. While we understand that this is an unfortunate sacrifice for the overall betterment of PvP, we feel that this change will improve the state of both competitive and entry level PvP. This means that more players will be able to enter into PvP and as such increase to competition and the attractiveness of this fun and exciting area of the game.

This doesn't mean that world PvP and duels will be ignored. We definitely understand that players are wanting more huge, epic and glorious PvP such as those that come from world PvP, we just don't feel that it's the right place with the faction imbalance that is present in such battles. We are also looking into trying to find some solutions that will help with PvE gear in duels as we have seen this is a concern as well.
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26/03/2013 08:31Posted by Nakatoir
One minor concern would be World PvP. If the item level of PvP gear is only 496, PvE gear might be very dominant here. To be fair with you though, I'm not that bothered with World PvP in the first place, so don't mind this at all.
We are well aware that this is a concern that has arisen from players regarding the recently announced changes. While we understand that this is an unfortunate sacrifice for the overall betterment of PvP, we feel that this change will improve the state of both competitive and entry level PvP. This means that more players will be able to enter into PvP and as such increase to competition and the attractiveness of this fun and exciting area of the game.


First of all you should be looking into other game mechanics than scaling gear, deleting resilience from gear etc.

1) Balance classes (huge issue)
2) Delete the 70 zillion CC possibilities on all characters
3) Fix the amount of "I can global you on 1 macro" playstyle

It's basicly looking away from other problems and trying to solve it with other things. This game has changed alot in the past 3 years. Just got back after inactivity and talked stuff over with alot of people. Basicly there are to much classes that have to much nowadays. Old arena was way better back in the days, now it's just to much of everything.
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90 Human Monk
9880
My biggest concern with these changes is the set bonuses awarded from PvE. In a lot of cases they're just too strong for PvP, especially tank set bonuses.

Let me elaborate: A tank has no use at all what so ever of PvP power, nada zip null. So he gets his shiny PvE gear with superduper tank stats on it, an insane amount of sockets. He then sockets and enchants all out resilience on everything becoming virtually immune to melee damage (hi dodge, parry and block!) and still extremely viable against casters.

Basically no high rated RBG team will take a PvP geared tank, because they will benefit so much more from PvE geared tanks with the appropriate gems and enchants.

This is quite concerning.

For healers it won't matter much as they're increasing the impact of PvP power, but still some set bonuses might still be worthwhile, like the 2 set bonus for MW monks. That would make the already insane RBG healing for monks tenfold better.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
14150
Perhaps it is time that we start to refer to it as "Battleground gear" and "Standard gear" or something. PvP Gear doesn't seem like a good label to use anymore.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
8260
Man, these people are incompetent... And it's really so easy... Either completely separate PvP gear from PvE gear, meaning make PvP gear much more effective in PvP than PvE gear (because duh, it's actually called "PvP gear"), or completely remove PvP and PvE gear and make GEAR.

Now, if their concern is to allow PvEers better access to PvP, I'd say the second one is the way to go... Of course, the real question is already why have 2 types of gear if they want PvEers to have better access to PvP?

As of now, if I understand correctly, someone with heroic PvE gear will roflstomp on a full PvP gear. And this is an "unfortunate sacrifice for the overall betterment of PvP". I loled
Edited by Paradisia on 26/03/2013 09:11 GMT
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90 Orc Shaman
16680
Shouldn't world pvp be balanced for pve and pvp gear being around equal in power. After all it's not exclusively pvp environment nor is it exclusively pve environment. Yes pve gear will propably have bigger ilevel and, oh my, pvp gear will give better value per itemlevel for pvp, thus balancing it out.
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90 Human Mage
0
One minor concern would be World PvP. If the item level of PvP gear is only 496, PvE gear might be very dominant here. To be fair with you though, I'm not that bothered with World PvP in the first place, so don't mind this at all.
We are well aware that this is a concern that has arisen from players regarding the recently announced changes. While we understand that this is an unfortunate sacrifice for the overall betterment of PvP, we feel that this change will improve the state of both competitive and entry level PvP. This means that more players will be able to enter into PvP and as such increase to competition and the attractiveness of this fun and exciting area of the game.

This doesn't mean that world PvP and duels will be ignored. We definitely understand that players are wanting more huge, epic and glorious PvP such as those that come from world PvP, we just don't feel that it's the right place with the faction imbalance that is present in such battles. We are also looking into trying to find some solutions that will help with PvE gear in [url="https://twitter.com/holinka/status/315679130081456128"]duels[/url] as we have seen this is a concern as well.


It's not soo much epic large WPVP battles that are the problem me think. During large battles its a chaotic mess anyway and it becomes more about the shear amount of numbers.
Its more pvp dailies have just been introduced again in a whole new extensive form. And people with no pvp gear could choose todo the pve dailies on island of thunder. It feels really nice being able todo the pvp dailies whilst good pvp geared. It has a great enigmatic feel to it. If pve gear is going to dominate in world pvp then these new pvp dailies lose their luster and put people doing more pvp with more pvp gear at disadvantage against pve geared players whilst doing pvp dailies. And that is just too inconsistent. If you scale pve gear down during pvp arena's, battlegrounds, then scale pvp gear UP to the equivalent pve gear during world battles or at the very least pvp dailies. Its going to feel so underwhelming doing pvp dailies whilst being gimped so much against pve geared players. (Especially if skill of both players are equal)
Edited by Cova on 26/03/2013 09:25 GMT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
14150
Since this has been designated the "single feedback thread" by Nakatoir, I'll post my input regarding tanks here, rather than finding a more specific thread or making my own.

For dps and healers PvP Power should be enough to encourage PvP gear given the right balance of PvP Power and Battle Fatigue. For PvP tanks this isn't true since output isn't really a focus.

Some players seem to take out some frustration with the fact that PvE gear will be optimal for PvP tanking on the PvE tanks, expressing jealousy. I think this is very misguided and puts the focus on the wrong thing. I don't think the PvE tanks will "love it". Most of them will be like "Meh, I don't fancy standing around with a flag all day regardless." In my experience PvP tanks and PvE tanks are seldom the same person. The effect will instead most likely be that many current PvP tanks will be disheartened at the prospect of farming PvE gear every season or be suboptimal and just give up on it, prefering a dps or healer instead. Giving us a severe FC shortage.

We should not wish for a tank "set" as that would not really solve things, given that "worthless" PvP power would still leave any better itemized piece trump ing the PvP gear. Further this approach would force players into making a distinctive choice between using conquest for tanking or dps - and since only one of them are Arena viable that will obviously make it hard for players to choose to be tanks. Thus we need PvP Power to overcome not only PvE set bonuses, but also the fact that PvE tank gear has stats like Dodge and Parry where the PvP gear offers Crit and Haste. We need something along the lines of PvP power to become a really strong defensive stat like resilience for Prots, Guardians etc. In fact I suggest it should be counted AS resilience.

I'd suggest an implementation on the PTR of a conversion, PvP Power->Resilience, just like spirit->hit for hybrids. I'd start with a 1 to 1 conversion to be tuned over the course of the PTR to hopefully find a number that makes it preferable to PvE gear without making tanks invincible.
Edited by Jeniwyn on 26/03/2013 09:27 GMT
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90 Human Mage
5920
I know GC hates the word "scaling", but I'm afraid now its extremely relevant.

HOW will the 65% damage reduction change in future patches?

65% would've been ridiculous in 5.0. Now its fine. Next patch, its too little. What to think of this?
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90 Human Warrior
5470
In order the balance the damage gap between PVE and PVP gears, more PVP power is effectively added to the PVP set (previous resi bonus is changed to pvp power). Actually this is very unfair to classes like warrior, who are nuked from very beginning of an arena to the end. With full resi gems a mage-rogue setup still still kills me within 4 seconds, think about what's going to happen when they have even more pvp power. pvp resi matters more for melee classes like warriors since I can not kite, we can not stealth, we are always there being ganked. But they dont really matter that much for mages or rogues who have blocks who can blink or who can stealth.

After the nerf on warrior D-stance, it's like every on in arena knows the tac: nuke the warrior! I think this better be changed!
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90 Human Mage
5920
I'd suggest an implementation on the PTR of a conversion, PvP Power->Resilience, just like spirit->hit for hybrids. I'd start with a 1 to 1 conversion to be tuned over the course of the PTR to hopefully find a number that makes it preferable to PvE gear without making tanks invincible.


Nice point. Though I hate rbg
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How can people even complain about this? Who the f cares about gear upgrades, this is awesome. You could make it even better and make the honorfarm not as much of a pain in the butt.
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90 Human Paladin
12585
One minor concern would be World PvP. If the item level of PvP gear is only 496, PvE gear might be very dominant here. To be fair with you though, I'm not that bothered with World PvP in the first place, so don't mind this at all.
We are well aware that this is a concern that has arisen from players regarding the recently announced changes. While we understand that this is an unfortunate sacrifice for the overall betterment of PvP, we feel that this change will improve the state of both competitive and entry level PvP. This means that more players will be able to enter into PvP and as such increase to competition and the attractiveness of this fun and exciting area of the game.

This doesn't mean that world PvP and duels will be ignored. We definitely understand that players are wanting more huge, epic and glorious PvP such as those that come from world PvP, we just don't feel that it's the right place with the faction imbalance that is present in such battles. We are also looking into trying to find some solutions that will help with PvE gear in [url="https://twitter.com/holinka/status/315679130081456128"]duels[/url] as we have seen this is a concern as well.


The whole reason we chose to start again on Alliance side Twisting Nether is because it has one of the worst faction ratios giving us an easy time finding world PvP which has been fun for the past many years. Don't take this away from us.

Right now world PvP is about who is more prepared, organized and PvP skilled, but giving every single PvEer on our realm the possibility to hop in and get away with it just means we won't stand a chance. A 10 to 1 horde to alliance ratio means people will just keep popping in.
Edited by Zerotorescue on 26/03/2013 09:41 GMT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
14150
How can people even complain about this? Who the f cares about gear upgrades, this is awesome. You could make it even better and make the honorfarm not as much of a pain in the butt.


This is a complex issue and you've managed to misunderstand it completely it seems.

The PvP grind will be the same as it has always been. You will need 14 slots of conquest gear + weapons each season. That will not change.

What will change is how PvE and PvP gear compare to each other. The intent is that PvP gear
should be slightly better than PvE gear. What we are trying to address are issues with the suggested implementation where things might end up not working out that way; oversights we think Blizzard has made/might do; and voice our concerns over implications that Blizzard at the moment consider acceptable side effects that we may or may not think are actually quite troublesome.
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