Difficulty of the game (or the lack of it)

90 Undead Warlock
6670
Hey guys ;)

I am simply curious to see what other people feel about this and maybe get some insight from Blizzard.

The raiding from vanilla WoW up to and including WotLK has been an amazing experience for me. So has the PvP, it has always given me the adrenaline rush I needed to stay interested in the game. Even the leveling was amazing. The quests were great in that on more than one occasion I'd find myself having to find more people in the area to be able to down a certain mob for my quest (STV being a great example of this) and dungeons .. man, I had to find groups for dungeons on my own realm! Loved it, loved having to find the things to unlock them, loved having to summon people to get started, loved looking for people to run with as they usually ended up as becoming my friends.

The issues:

Difficulty while leveling
WoW has now been dumbed down so much to the point that my Dutch 7 yo. nephew can level up to 80 (mage) without knowing any English, thus not having a clue of what spells do and so on. He doesn't read quests because whatever he needs to click on is sparkly, and what he needs to kill is marked red. Arrows lead him in all the directions he needs to go so basically, he doesn't need to do anything other than spam frostbolt and the occasional frostnova or whatever.

Now when I do questing myself instead of letting my nephew do it while I go play guitar or whatever it just hurts my heart to see the old STV "bosses" for example either be completely gone or they're now normal mobs that I kill with 3 spells.. There's no challenge at all in leveling now.

Dungeons
Getting into dungeons, and dungeons themselves have turned into the most impersonal experiences I've ever had. Raid/dungeon finder gets me groups while I can AFK and I don't even need to pay attention to the group or talk or whatever because I can solo every dungeon I enter. When I play my tank monk now for example I just tell the healer to go dps spec because I have enough selfhealing to stay alive and mobs don't live longer than 5 seconds. It's boring, tedious and completely ruins my experience in WoW. The other people might as well be NPCs for me because it doesn't change a damn thing about what happens around me.

Specs
I miss having to choose my talents carefully, re-speccing, being different from the rest. I remember having a frostweaving DK and a half enh/ele mixed shaman, was amazing. Right now in arenas when you see what spec somebody is you know exactly what's coming. There's no guessing, observing or adapting anymore (to a certain degree).

Dungeons and questing having been made redundant now just leaves PvP. World PvP is non-existent and battlegrounds are filled with bots, nothing for me to find there either. So what do I do in WoW now to get my adrenaline shot? Raid finder is faceroll. Arenas are filled with FotM classes/specs and if you're not one of those you can throw away your dreams of high rating (not that it matters anymore anyways because elite gear gives nothing extra except for a different color). Raiding itself.. I can't even be bothered anymore. New raids are cleared within the first 10 hours they're out, no challenge there.

The last challenge WoW has given me since Ulduar came out was the green fire warlock solo quest. Kanrethad is the most challenging and fun boss I've ever fought and downed (72 attempts, F yeah!) altough, with all the crying on the warlock forums on how difficult the boss is it will likely get nerfed within the next few weeks anyways.

So yeah, am I the only person who thinks WoW too dumbed down and is no longer challenging? Let me know.
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90 Gnome Death Knight
11725
The difficulty whilst leveling has completely diminished, I agree.

The dungeon finder has introduced ignorance and spite in the community due to the cross realm attitude of "You're not on my realm, I'll never see you again" which could easily be fixed with a reputation system.

The talent thing is interesting because I actually prefer this talent system, whereas the old one was just small, minor changes, (like major glyphs), these are huge things- such as new abilities. Although it looks like there's considerably less customization, their really isn't- it's got rid of all the old "required" talents and made all of them viable.
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Difficulty while leveling
WoW has now been dumbed down so much to the point that my Dutch 7 yo. nephew can level up to 80 (mage) without knowing any English, thus not having a clue of what spells do and so on. He doesn't read quests because whatever he needs to click on is sparkly, and what he needs to kill is marked red. Arrows lead him in all the directions he needs to go so basically, he doesn't need to do anything other than spam frostbolt and the occasional frostnova or whatever.

Now when I do questing myself instead of letting my nephew do it while I go play guitar or whatever it just hurts my heart to see the old STV "bosses" for example either be completely gone or they're now normal mobs that I kill with 3 spells.. There's no challenge at all in leveling now.


We didn't read quests back then (well, some of us did, and still do) and could do them just fine. You could also level up spamming frostbolt or frost nova, you just had to be careful with how many mobs you were pulling at the same time. And we had sites like Thottbot to go check where quest objectives where (and map addons to get the coordinates). Now those things are built in the game, but it wasn't nothing that didn't exist before.

The STV "bosses" and many other elite quests were changed some time ago. Among other reasons, because it was getting increasingly harder to find players to do that content as we were moving into newer expansions. So, during The Burning Crusade's launch, it was very easy to find players to group up for the elite quests at Hellfire Peninsula, yet at the end of that very same expansion, it was rather difficult to find alts that would help you go through. As you move forward from that content, new players coming up to the game just can't do them because they can't group with people. What's the point of a difficult monster if noone can kill him because you can't find a group at the appropriate level?

Dungeons
Getting into dungeons, and dungeons themselves have turned into the most impersonal experiences I've ever had. Raid/dungeon finder gets me groups while I can AFK and I don't even need to pay attention to the group or talk or whatever because I can solo every dungeon I enter. When I play my tank monk now for example I just tell the healer to go dps spec because I have enough selfhealing to stay alive and mobs don't live longer than 5 seconds. It's boring, tedious and completely ruins my experience in WoW. The other people might as well be NPCs for me because it doesn't change a damn thing about what happens around me.


If you are having an easy time on 5-man heroics, you're more than welcome to try Challenge Modes. Though, if your party overgears the content it's to be expected that it won't be too difficult (but again, this is nothing new, it was being done in previous expansions as better gear was being released).

Specs
I miss having to choose my talents carefully, re-speccing, being different from the rest. I remember having a frostweaving DK and a half enh/ele mixed shaman, was amazing. Right now in arenas when you see what spec somebody is you know exactly what's coming. There's no guessing, observing or adapting anymore (to a certain degree).

How did you choose your talents carefully? I mean, it's an honest question. Because most of the community would go and use the same cookie cutter specs (and using anything else would be a DPS loss on PVE or a survivability loss in PVP).

New raids are cleared within the first 10 hours they're out, no challenge there.


Which one?
Throne of Thunder's Heroic race is still on (and it wasn't released 10 hours ago :-P).

And also, unless you have cleared it, the challenge is there, waiting for you. If you refuse to do it that's entirely a different topic.

So yeah, am I the only person who thinks WoW too dumbed down and is no longer challenging? Let me know.

You aren't, but I would recommend you reading this answer I made about this topic as well as that thread. Might be useful.
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76 Pandaren Monk
2995
If you find it easy that doesn't mean that others find it easy. Why not challenge yourself? make up you're own difficulty. Like maybe do the Ironman challange..i tried that..only got to lvl 7 >_>
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25 Troll Shaman
500
I'm sorry but I'm going to be frank for a moment, people like OP who are complaining how easy the game is, is starting to piss me off. Not just because it's annoying whining, but because there is PLENTY of challenging content if you actually wanted to do it.

You see, I really doubt you want a challenge, because then you would be doing it, and enjoying it, instead of being a pathological whiner.

I mean, who the F*** queues for heroic dungeons, EXPECTING a challenge? Did you know blizzard has stated heroics are not supposed to be hard anymore?

I mean, who the F*** levels a character, EXPECTING a challenge? Did you know blizzard is trying to expand it's player base so they don't just cater to veteran players from vanilla and TBC?
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90 Human Warlock
16615
The challenge is there, but now you have to go seek it yourself in form of high end pvp, challenge modes, heroic raids, brawlers guild, or soloing old content that havn't been soloed before.

Blizzard is trying to expand their player base, so they have to put in all sorts of content, both for those who plays 2 hours a week, and those who plays closer to 20 or 30. And lets face it, if the heroic dungeons were tuned for players playing 20 hours a week, casuals wouldnt have a fun time once they hit level 90
Edited by Caci on 28/03/2013 17:09 GMT
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90 Draenei Priest
12505
The challenge is there, but now you have to go seek it yourself in form of high end pvp, challenge modes, heroic raids, brawlers guild, or soloing old content that havn't been soloed before.


Pretty much this.

Plus it seems WoW is simplifying and speeding up the levelling process as it seems to be concentrating on endgame content. Personally, I would love to see a return of (more) orange and red quests and slightly less linear questing, though.

Btw, have you done any raiding OP? Normal or heroic I mean (not LFR). Challenge mode dungeons? If so, how did you find them?

Edit - I used to agree with you about the new talent system. I didn't like it at first, but then I realised that as Draztal pointed out, the majority of players all used the same points anyway. Now at least we get to choose what we want to do instead of just conforming to what everyone else was speccing into.
Edited by Twijfelkont on 28/03/2013 17:13 GMT
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90 Draenei Shaman
16635
Leveling was never very difficult tbh, especially depending on what class and spec you were. Tedious, yes, difficult, not really. Also, I don't think they should make it more difficult now that there are 90 levels to go through. The pace is ok if you are new and don't have heirlooms, and it is ok if you are not new and are sick of leveling so you use heirlooms to get through asap.

I sometimes miss /4 for example, but the problem with that nowdays would be the fact that leveling is spread over 90 levels - imagine having to find 4 more people of level range 30 to 35 to do Scarlet Monastery dungeons through LFM chat (or trade chat). It would take ages, not to mention that many realms are ghost towns. Same goes for old group quests. More often than not, you just can't find enough people to do stuff (which is why I am glad they made, for example, old Dragonblight group quests soloable).

Talent specs - I don't mind the new ones. In Cataclysm the mixed specs were pretty much dead (especially when they introduced ''must spend 31 talent in one tree to be able to access another tree''), the last time they worked ok was in WotLK, and that was a long time ago.

Don't forget that a lot of players have been playing for many years. We have seen and experienced many, many different bosses and styles of boss fights. Most new things they come up with is a lot easier to learn because we are already used to many of those things/circumstances/conditions. Point being, boss mechanics may become more complex over time, but we also become more clever and more likely to overcome them faster (not to mention that people who started playing in vanilla/tbc have also aged, which in itself brings some new things on the mental plan).

Don't get me wrong, on one hand, looking back at classic and TBC, I miss some of the stuff (the masochistic parts of leveling, dungeon bosses wiping a group like nothing, professions being a complete pain in the -bleep- to level, running everywhere until level 40 and first mount, etc) but on the other hand, when I think a bit about it... I am glad a lot of it is gone. Some things were challenging but a lot of it was also useless waste of time.

As for PvP, it was always about FotM.
Edited by Manatea on 28/03/2013 17:26 GMT
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85 Worgen Warlock
1540
This is a phenomenon that happens in every game really.

Reason is because most gamers havent achieved anything great in irl and need to feel better about themselves in some way and games make them feel like they are great and awesome when they do quests, succeed, win etc.

And easy pve is the best illusion to make players feel great about themselves and keep them paying.
Game designer: "Do you want people to be defeated and realize how crappy they are(which is the truth) and ragequit the game, its a lot more profitable to fill them with lies of awesomness which they will gladly believe"

And pvp in most games is starting to get dumped down in order to increase profit. With huge amounts of cc and limiting global cooldowns were even a dumb person can get a kill
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85 Blood Elf Mage
9400
How did you choose your talents carefully? I mean, it's an honest question. Because most of the community would go and use the same cookie cutter specs (and using anything else would be a DPS loss on PVE or a survivability loss in PVP).


While that is true then the old talent system offered the choice of going with strange specializations, either for soloing or catching people off guard in pvp. It did also include some more thinking through when changing or fixing different mechanics, though.

I don't know if it would be possible to increase the maximum capacity of a server and then prevent people, without existing characters, from making new characters on specific low population realms. Then over time it would be possible to "merge" realms into bigger ones, which could resolve some of the low level problems with finding others to level with.

Another thing during the leveling process is to make standard mobs and some bosses tougher. That would include a change in the xp given and number of things needing collecting or killing in order to keep the pace the same, but still giving people more of a challenge.
Giving us the option of doing "orange" and "red" quests again would also be great, especially for the more experienced players because that provides somewhat of a challenge.
Leveling may just be throwing frost bolts, but there's a difference between doing it while you have to pay more attention to your surroundings or not.
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85 Night Elf Druid
9450
Now when I do questing myself instead of letting my nephew do it while I go play guitar or whatever it just hurts my heart to see the old STV "bosses" for example either be completely gone or they're now normal mobs that I kill with 3 spells.. There's no challenge at all in leveling now.


Should it be challenging to level up a char?

For which reason?

Isnt the story the interesting part of the leveling experience?


Getting into dungeons, and dungeons themselves have turned into the most impersonal experiences I've ever had. Raid/dungeon finder gets me groups w


If you want a personal experience, get some friends and do the dungeons with them. It's an option you could do.

So yeah, am I the only person who thinks WoW too dumbed down and is no longer challenging? Let me know.


End game content is way more difficult than ever before.. if you chose to play the difficult part.

If you run lfr only, then yes, it's no ongoing challenge. But lfr is not made to be challenging.
Edited by Nessaya on 28/03/2013 17:51 GMT
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90 Undead Warlock
7270
If you are having an easy time on 5-man heroics, you're more than welcome to try Challenge Modes. Though, if your party overgears the content it's to be expected that it won't be too difficult (but again, this is nothing new, it was being done in previous expansions as better gear was being released).


I think his talking about all the dungeons from 15-90 not just the so called "mop hc's" I really think you guys need to go over all these dungeons and fine tune them a bit more because they are way to easy. they shouldn't be HC type but bosses shouldn't die within 10 seconds of being pulled.
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90 Pandaren Monk
7100
snip


Oh, look, it's you again, generalizing the entire playerbase in a derogatory fashion. Surprise, surprise. You really are a pessimist, you know that right?

@OP

Yes, the game IS pretty easy in it's current state, but that's only because the actual 'difficulties' have been shifted upwards a tier without the majority of people taking note of that - Challenge Mode is the new Heroic, etc etc.

I enjoy questing - although with heirlooms, you speed through the zones too quickly to actually enjoy them, which is the reason why I tend to not use them (I did pay for the game after all, might as well experience my money's worth...). Dungeons are easy, yes - I can solo most of them on my Discipline priest without heirlooms and with the enemies being red to me. But that's a challenge, and it's extremely fun to push yourself.

However, the re-occuring "the people in my dungeons might as well be NPC's" is valid... because you also think like this, and people probably think this about YOU when you're in THEIR dungeon group too. Try chatting to them once in a while - I've made a lot of battletag friends through LFD and I play with them a lot in CRZ/CR content such as heroics and shizzle.

PvP is NOT filled with bots, unless you live on a different planet to me - your use of heuristical data being applied to 'every player' is incorrect - I've only seen one or two bots, and I play BG's a ton on my other characters (Can't stand monk PVP, lol). The FoTM thing is utter rubbish, since the more people play a certain class, the easier you can learn counters to them and gain practice against them. If you use the term FoTM you aren't PvP'ing properly... it's essentially a term used when you can't work out how to kill X class or Y spec and think it's Blizzard's fault for that - I'll give you a clue; it's not.

You do raise some valid points, I agree, but you just need to play the game in a style that you find enjoyable and challenging - if you can't find either, maybe you should take a raincheck on why you are playing at all.
Edited by Mishiya on 28/03/2013 17:56 GMT
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85 Night Elf Druid
9450
I think his talking about all the dungeons from 15-90 not just the so called "mop hc's" I really think you guys need to go over all these dungeons and fine tune them a bit more because they are way to easy. they shouldn't be HC type but bosses shouldn't die within 10 seconds of being pulled.


Probably you should not use heirlooms.
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90 Worgen Druid
8885
How did you choose your talents carefully? I mean, it's an honest question. Because most of the community would go and use the same cookie cutter specs (and using anything else would be a DPS loss on PVE or a survivability loss in PVP).


And they still do, except it takes less time to copy said spec now. :(
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85 Night Elf Druid
9450
And they still do, except it takes less time to copy said spec now. :(


But there are no real global cookie cutters aymore.
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90 Worgen Hunter
17600
Everything is easy at the bottom because that's how games are supposed to work.
The challenge isn't coming to you, you go and take the challenge.

Just like you can stay in random heroics and LFRs all day, you could stay at the end of every Mega Man stage and farm powerups until you're at full health, or farm the same underwater dungeon over and over in Dark Cloud to make the last boss a pushover, or get Knights of the Round Table in FF7 after those 3-4 days or so of mindless chocobo racing and push one button to win.

The possibility is there, so most people are naturally going to use it. Why try and get gear the hard way by finding a group for raids while you can just do LFR? Or dungeons and get valor gear?
Why even raid when you can do LFR and see the same thing but with higher numbers?
Why.

Because people want a challenge.

[/]
Edited by Emiroda on 28/03/2013 18:02 GMT
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39 Blood Elf Warlock
6825
What's the point of a difficult monster if noone can kill him because you can't find a group at the appropriate level?

What the point of CRZ if you can't level with other people (because literally everything out there is too easy)? at the moment CRZ does more harm than good because it's only advantageous for excessive ganking.

Besides, why not make bosses in low lvl 5 mans more difficult? you have the group for that, why make them so easy?

l don't mind about talents personally - yea l'd prefer to feel as though l was making my own char, but at least we still have some form of choice. l'd like it if talents were something we
could incorporate into our routine, not just CDs or gimmicks like we have now.

Raids are fine, but we can all agree LFR is not

So levelling and 5 mans are my only real issues, but these are just a waste of time. You should need to cooperate in 5s, and atm my chat's always empty. A lot of people want wow to be something fun and challenging - it's just stupid that you should level 1-90 weeks without ever being challenged (l never use heirlooms, and still l can never drop below 90% hp on one mob, 50 if l pull 3, nor can l ever finish half a zone)

see the post just below this one - he knows what we want
Edited by Gallitor on 28/03/2013 18:09 GMT
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90 Human Monk
5200

Dungeons
Getting into dungeons, and dungeons themselves have turned into the most impersonal experiences I've ever had. Raid/dungeon finder gets me groups while I can AFK and I don't even need to pay attention to the group or talk or whatever because I can solo every dungeon I enter. When I play my tank monk now for example I just tell the healer to go dps spec because I have enough selfhealing to stay alive and mobs don't live longer than 5 seconds. It's boring, tedious and completely ruins my experience in WoW. The other people might as well be NPCs for me because it doesn't change a damn thing about what happens around me.


If you are having an easy time on 5-man heroics, you're more than welcome to try Challenge Modes. Though, if your party overgears the content it's to be expected that it won't be too difficult (but again, this is nothing new, it was being done in previous expansions as better gear was being released).



I can't believe this so even Blizzard is saying 90% of the content is mindless grind.

Including every normal dungeon, heroics and raids (yes no tactics in raids just mash the keyboard). Pre Challenge Mode.

I agree with you OP. We NEED the world to be more dangerous more fun and in turn feel more rewarding.

-Bring back CCing in dungeons. Giving dps an extra job.
-Stop making tanking just about aoe damage. They should not be dpsers, most of the time they are highest dps.
-Make threat important again.
-Bring back tactics in Instances, rather than a rampage through.
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