New PVP Stats = Missing Item Level?

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90 Human Paladin
19750
I am really not sure but as far as I know, PVP Power/Resilience cost item level, blanket removal of a stat aka make it passive = you should add another stat or increase current one.

Now the stat is removed with no other stat boost, I believe that stat boost is needed, specially to PVP Power in order to overcom PVE gear.

What is your thought?
90 Blood Elf Priest
14150
I am really not sure but as far as I know, PVP Power/Resilience cost item level


It doesn't cost any item level.
90 Human Rogue
15650
I don't think it does, not entirely sure though.

Now the stat is removed with no other stat boost, I believe that stat boost is needed, specially to PVP Power in order to overcom PVE gear.

I think Nakatoir actually stated that they are going to do that, or something similar, to increase the value of PvP gear.
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7101670278
Edited by Thornass on 29/03/2013 07:02 GMT
90 Blood Elf Priest
14150
29/03/2013 07:02Posted by Thornass
I don't think it does, not entirely sure though.


It doesn't. I am entirely sure.

I think Nakatoir actually stated that they are going to do that, or something similar, to increase the value of PvP gear.


He said something that could be interpreted as such somewhere, it is very unlikely to be the case though. Much more likely is that he has misunderstood something or expressed himself poorly. The stats will increase slightly overall since the items will go from 493 to 496 ilvl but beyond that there is no real reason to believe that any stats will be increased since that would violate the stat budget of the item level.

On mmo-champion we can now see the first iteration of the new gear from the PTR. It shows removed resilience from all pvp gear and conquest gear increased to ilvl 496. Nothing more, nothing less.
90 Human Rogue
15650
no real reason to believe that any stats will be increased since that would violate the stat budget of the item level.

Isn't that what happened with the S13 Malev items though? Their amount of stamina got increased, they have a way higher PVP Resi/Power than higher item level items (relatively). So it is possible?

On mmo-champion we can now see the first iteration of the new gear from the PTR. It shows removed resilience from all pvp gear and conquest gear increased to ilvl 496. Nothing more, nothing less

This is the early PTR though, so much can still change. If it's not there yet, doesn't mean it won't change.
90 Undead Death Knight
9715
I am concerned about World PvP.
I understand Arena and BGs will have an item level cap, but it would seem unfair imo to get owned outside by some hero raider.
I want my PvP gear to be best for PvP anywhere.

If someone can engage in Player versus Player in a contested teritory with someone of higher PvE gear and soothe me, would be much appreciated.
A duel would work, too.

Now don't want any carebears here telling me how World PvP is so !@#$ or a waste of time, I just need to be sure that PvP gear won't let me down in encounters outside Arena or BGs.
Edited by Mirijam on 29/03/2013 08:10 GMT
90 Blood Elf Priest
14150
Isn't that what happened with the S13 Malev items though? Their amount of stamina got increased, they have a way higher PVP Resi/Power than higher item level items (relatively). So it is possible?


The entire debacle with S13 Malev is one of the reasons they've stated for doing this. It is precisely what they want to avoid.

This is the early PTR though, so much can still change. If it's not there yet, doesn't mean it won't change.


They might still, in principle, scrap the entire idea of ilevel cap and increased base resilience. But discussing such hypotheticals will not really get us anywhere. I found the Nakatoir quote btw.

Actually, the sockets come at the price of some of the iLvl budget. So even if you miss out on a socket or two, PvP gear gets some more stats as well as PvP power not being a part of the iLvl budget. :)


He is saying that a PvE item with sockets will have less stats other stats than PvP gear without sockets, since some of the item level budget is spent on said sockets. Nothing else. He is expressing it a little clumsily though, easy to misinterpret.
90 Human Rogue
15650
easy to misinterpret.

True, who knows. :)

I think we can all agree on that PvP gear should be better in PvP than PvE gear, and Blizzard will definitely make sure it will work like this next patch.
90 Blood Elf Priest
14150
Now don't want any carebears here telling me how World PvP is so !@#$ or a waste of time, I just need to be sure that PvP gear won't let me down in encounters outside Arena or BGs.


It will be decent and better or equal to what something like 99% of the players you meet in the world will have equipped. However it will not be the best possible gear since players with heroic PvE loot with extra sockets that they have put PvP gems in will be at an advantage. This should be exceedingly rare as most PvE players will gem for PvE, but clearly it isn't impossible.

The problem shouldn't be exaggerated.
90 Blood Elf Priest
14150
I think we can all agree on that PvP gear should be better in PvP than PvE gear, and Blizzard will definitely make sure it will work like this next patch.


They will not go to any length to make sure this is the case for every single slot, for every single spec, for every single point of the seasons. I would be very surprised if some few exceptions to the general rule that PvP gear is best in arenas didn't make it into 5.3. However, the relatively open dialogue with @Holinka should make those exceptions relatively rare as long as we help them out by pointing out issues we identify.

It might seem strange since I've been focusing on problems, but I honestly think that the upcoming season will be one of the seasons where PvEers have the least advantage in arenas ever. Its just that once Blizzard make an overall great move like this, its probably a good idea to point out any lingering issues so that those can be corrected too.
Edited by Jeniwyn on 29/03/2013 09:42 GMT
90 Human Rogue
15650
29/03/2013 08:52Posted by Jeniwyn
I think we can all agree on that PvP gear should be better in PvP than PvE gear, and Blizzard will definitely make sure it will work like this next patch.


They will not go to any length to make sure this is the case for every single slot, for every single spec, for every single point of the seasons. I would be very surprised if some few exceptions to the general rule that PvP gear is best in arenas made it into 5.3. However, the relatively open dialogue with @Holinka should make those exceptions relatively rare as long as we help them out by pointing out issues we identify.

It might seem strange since I've been focusing on problems, but I honestly think that the upcoming season will be one of the seasons where PvEers have the least advantage in arenas ever. Its just that once Blizzard make an overall great move like this, its probably a good idea to point out any lingering issues so that those can be corrected too.

Very good post, Jeniwyn, and I definitely agree with you. I think we should keep reporting all our concerns, so that Blizzard knows what is going on in the community and knows what they need to look out for. Blizzard has proven in the recent changes (and through Holinka on Twtter and for Nakatoir for us in the EU) that they do listen to us, and that they do want to make changes that the PvP community wants.

If there has ever been a time in World of Warcraft that huge (I'd almost say revolutionary) changes to the game were possible, it is now.
Community
Let's look at one example, both items are ilvl 476:

Dorian's Necklace of Burgeoning Dreams
849 sta + 566 int + 399 haste + 340 mastery = 2154

Malevolent Gladiator's Pendant of Alacrity
849 sta + 566 int + 405 haste + 331 mastery + (299 PvP Power + 299 PvP Resilience) = 2151 + (598) = 2749

As you can see, if you simply sum up all the stats without taking into account any sort of relative stat weights (which are irrelevant for this case as the existing PvE stats on both items are exactly the same) you can clearly see that they are pretty similar if you ignore the PvP stats (2154 vs 2151).
So we can conclude that PvP stats (Resilience and PvP Power) do not count towards the ilvl budget of any item.

So, yes even if PvP stats are out of the ilvl budget, the removal of resilience will still mean that PvP items are losing something extra that was exclusive to them, but PvP Power is still there and is still out of the budget, if we find that this is not enough we can always change some of the numbers on PvP items, like turning the PvP Power “knob” up until we are happy with them.

Note: Malevolent gear actually has even more stamina than that due to a recent hotfix, but I used the old values just to show that the numbers were correct in terms of correlation between stats and ilvl.
90 Human Rogue
15650
Thanks for the answer Taepsilum, hoped that would be the case.
90 Human Paladin
12585
Let's look at one example, both items are ilvl 476:

Dorian's Necklace of Burgeoning Dreams
849 sta + 566 int + 399 haste + 340 mastery = 2154

Malevolent Gladiator's Pendant of Alacrity
849 sta + 566 int + 405 haste + 331 mastery + (299 PvP Power + 299 PvP Resilience) = 2151 + (598) = 2749

As you can see, if you simply sum up all the stats without taking into account any sort of relative stat weights (which are irrelevant for this case as the existing PvE stats on both items are exactly the same) you can clearly see that they are pretty similar if you ignore the PvP stats (2154 vs 2151).
So we can conclude that PvP stats (Resilience and PvP Power) do not count towards the ilvl budget of any item.

So, yes even if PvP stats are out of the ilvl budget, the removal of resilience will still mean that PvP items are losing something extra that was exclusive to them, but PvP Power is still there and is still out of the budget, if we find that this is not enough we can always change some of the numbers on PvP items, like turning the PvP Power “knob” up until we are happy with them.

Note: Malevolent gear actually has even more stamina than that due to a recent hotfix, but I used the old values just to show that the numbers were correct in terms of correlation between stats and ilvl.


But is it intended that as a tank you have to obtain offspec PvP gear in order to be able to do Throne of Thunder LFR?

There are no tanking PVP items so the only option is to get either ret gear (with tons of crit) or holy gear for your offspecs which in your bags still boost your item level to a level required to queue for ToT. These items help your tanking in no way but since obtaining any useful tanking items with high enough item level takes many weeks this seem to be the only quickly available way.

Now I wouldn't mind healing a LFR raid as holy (since that gear set is better due to the PvP items) but my guild requires me to obtain tanking gear for once we start raiding in a week or so so I have to queue as a tank in order to get tanking gear.
Edited by Zerotorescue on 29/03/2013 11:02 GMT
90 Human Rogue
15650
But is it intended that as a tank you have to obtain offspec PvP gear in order to be able to do Throne of Thunder LFR?

I am not very familar with the MoP's PvE, why is it that you need PvP gear to Tank in PvE? Just for the item level to enter LFR?
Edited by Thornass on 29/03/2013 11:06 GMT
90 Human Paladin
12585
29/03/2013 11:05Posted by Thornass
But is it intended that as a tank you have to obtain offspec PvP gear in order to be able to do Throne of Thunder LFR?

I am not very familar with the MoP's PvE, why is it that you need PvP gear to Tank in PvE? Just for the item level to enter LFR?


Yeah. Heroic items are 463, while 460 is required to get in the Mogu'shan Vaults, 470 for Heart of Fear/Terrace of Endless Spring and 480 for Throne of Thunder. Without PVP gear it takes many weaks to acquire the required Valor Points for gear to enter these raids, but instead getting unusable PvP gear just to be able to queue as a tank seems just silly. If the stats are supposed to be the same then shouldn't a tanking PVP gear set be added?
Edited by Zerotorescue on 29/03/2013 12:44 GMT
90 Human Rogue
15650
First of all, Blizzard wants people to go through old content for their PvE gear. They actually don't want people to get PvP gear to participate in PvE gear.

Secondly, if you do some dailies, you can quite quickly get 489/496/5xx (don't know the exact number as I haven't done any content of 5.2 yet) items, which boosts your item level by a lot. If you want to have a quick item level booster, you can also consider buying crafted items on the auction house.
If you then go through MSV, get some gear there (drop rate has been increased, you can also 'coin' items for extra chances on gear) you will easily be geared enough for 470 item level raids, in which you can get new gear again, et cetera. You can then enter the ToT LFR.

PvP gear is made for PvP purpose in general, not for PvE.
90 Dwarf Paladin
11990
Dorian's Necklace of Burgeoning Dreams
849 sta + 566 int + 399 haste + 340 mastery = 2154

Malevolent Gladiator's Pendant of Alacrity
849 sta + 566 int + 405 haste + 331 mastery + (299 PvP Power + 299 PvP Resilience) = 2151 + (598) = 2749
With respect but your comparison is misleading. You have to compare LFR items (ilvl502) with the recent honour gear. Random Battleground is the equivalent to Looking For Raid in terms of PvP. And thus there will be an imbalance. And this is definitely not from a PvP point of view.

For example: my motivation for gathering PvP equipment is the sheer chaotic situation in the open world (most Horde players run around in PvE gear) while questing. On my server Horde outnumbers us Alliance by a factor 10:1 (and even additional x-realm players in most areas). In general burst and healing are already too high, PvP equipment is necessary to survive this mayhem when those raging packs of players are going wild. Any PvE equipped player is dead in seconds.

The idea of having a higher base resilience is a good one. But I think we need even more resilience unless you want those times back when stamina (== ilvl) was the key stat, when someone with their lvl60 T2 could nuke everyone in three to four GCDs. I think the scaling to equal ilvl in BGs/arenas is a good way, but there will be much more imbalance in the open world. Stacking resilience helps a lot but if we can only rely on gems and enchantments it won't be enough.
Edited by Homlit on 29/03/2013 12:55 GMT
90 Human Paladin
12585
29/03/2013 12:49Posted by Thornass
First of all, Blizzard wants people to go through old content for their PvE gear. They actually don't want people to get PvP gear to participate in PvE gear.


This doesn't seem to reflect the changes to the PvP gear making them as useful as PvE gear for PvE. In the past a lot of item budget went into resi which is when this seemed to be true.

29/03/2013 12:49Posted by Thornass
Secondly, if you do some dailies, you can quite quickly get 489/496/5xx (don't know the exact number as I haven't done any content of 5.2 yet) items, which boosts your item level by a lot.

Still limited to 1 item a week as they all require Valor Points to buy. And honestly with the Shado-Pan Offensive you don't even need to farm rep anymore.

29/03/2013 12:49Posted by Thornass
If you want to have a quick item level booster, you can also consider buying crafted items on the auction house.

I wish this were true. But my auction house is dead. (see: https://eu.theunderminejournal.com/?realm=A-Twisting Nether )
29/03/2013 12:49Posted by Thornass
If you then go through MSV, get some gear there (drop rate has been increased, you can also 'coin' items for extra chances on gear) you will easily be geared enough for 470 item level raids, in which you can get new gear again, et cetera. You can then enter the ToT LFR.

Tanking gear doesn't seem to drop as often as DPS gear (compared to several friends). Prior to unlocking all LFR raids by buying PvP gear I really didn't get any items.

PvP gear is made for PvP purpose in general, not for PvE.

Again, since PvP resi/power no longer seems included in item budgets this doesn't seen to be the case. Which is why it would be strange to exclude tanks from the party.
Community
With respect but your comparison is misleading. You have to compare LFR items (ilvl502) with the recent honour gear. Random Battleground is the equivalent to Looking For Raid in terms of PvP. And thus there will be an imbalance. And this is definitely not from a PvP point of view.


How is it misleading? The main question was about whether or not resilience and PvP power counted towards the ilvl budget; this comparison was made to simply show that given two same ilvl and identical pieces, one PvE and one PvP, the PvE stats remain basically the same.
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