If it pleases the court...

90 Tauren Warrior
15960
I've come to beg for the life of the five-man dungeon.

To this point, Mists of Pandaria has seen the smallest number of gearing dungeons in the game's history. This isn't about a lack of content, as there's more than enough of that in general, but the five-man dungeon has fulfilled a number of traditional roles in its history and I feel it's to the detriment of the game that it's taken a back seat.

The biggest issue, in my opinion, is the loss of the catch up mechanic in the progression curve. You've made recruiting extremely painful in this expansion for guilds stuck on normal mode encounters, and we who beg simply cannot choose. My guild already houses a couple of people who would be willing to make way for new players and play different classes, but it's already too demanding on our time to catch up our characters that have already done some raiding, never mind those that haven't.

LFR, as the sole catch up, is not a solution.

Previously, the system was different and it was the five-man dungeon that helped us along. From the inception of the idea during 3.2, we've seen the game move along nicely with the Icecrown trio, the revamped Zandalari dungeons and Dragon Soul. These allowed players to plough as much time as they deemed necessary into gearing up an alt so that they could help their guilds, play different classes, and generally be more flexible to their community.

Now, I understand the issue: the problem with the previous incarnation of this catch up system, the one we saw in Dragon Soul, had the rather unfortunate side effect of making the previous raiding tier absolutely redundant. We live in a world where content is coming out faster than ever, and I'm not sure that the developers could keep up with the demand even now if they were to allow people to wholeheartedly skip tiers as they did then.

But the dungeon system needed a tweak, it didn't need jettisoned entirely.

The Zandalari dungeons were a good example of how this can be done. They came between two major raiding tiers, but were set at an item level that didn't make the previous tier redundant. They were good for the hump and allowed alts to get themselves ready at a more reasonable rate than today, without necessarily ruining the tier of content that came before them. To paint this example more accurately, if the Dragon Soul dungeons released gear that was item level 372 rather than 378, the catch up would still be available but Firelands would still be worth running in order to get the better options that still resided there.

Please, do not talk to me of heroic scenarios. I know what they're going to do, I know what they're being designed for, and I'm sure they'll be fun in and of themselves. But expecting people to try and catch up by hoping that a single drop might have something they're looking for is going to lead to even more frustration than the silly system we have now.

The ship for 5.3 has sailed, and that's fine. But for 5.4 and the Siege of Orgrimmar, I don't see why three dungeons can't be pulled in to provide a better catch up mechanic than what we have. Ragefire Chasm can be one, and its contents need little more than retuning. Other dungeons from the classic era such as Blackrock Depths or Razorfen Downs could be given heroic modes so that players don't have to put up with the cesspit of LFR, valor and daily grinding just to get themselves ready for a new tier of content. An item level of 512 to 516 would be just fine and wouldn't cause the Throne of Thunder to be skipped entirely.

Before closing, I'm going to appeal to the heart.

It was Blizzard that gave casual players the opportunity to participate in the game's best content in WotLK, and get involved in "progression". In Cataclysm, brutally punishing content took that opportunity away to an extent, but at least there was dungeons to let players catch up. Now, not only is the content too punitive on normal mode, there is no viable catch up mechanic outside the ghetto of LFR and the meandering hope that what you need might drop.

Someday.

Come on, Blizzard. There is more to your community than the hardcore or the mega-casual. It's time to start thinking about them, too.

Peace.
Edited by Zellviren on 16/04/2013 22:50 BST
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90 Goblin Warrior
20000
Do a TL:DR plz.
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I said something much the same about catch up Dungeonsin another topic.

I feel they have a purpose in the middle-late stage of a expansion and importantly provide an alternative thing to do when we are on the painful final tier stretch.

My guild and I loved trying to break our DBM records for bosses. For playing the...I wonder if I can tank this game. I fear that come end expac I will be able to send Susan (My Frost Elemental) out to deal with the HC's on her own. Where in Hour of Twilights I could mess around near the end on my main.

It let me have alts too. I have 2 characters this expac and my Monk, who I love, has literally killed all of two bosses in raids since I do not have the time to play him. a Catchup mechanic, executed as above, would allow him to be a viable character for me to play with. In fact, should my guild decide they need a Boomkin, I would be able to gear one up to be sub par but not so much that I'm completely unviable to provide this.

I like dungeons. I do not think there are enough. I loved the variety of them in the past and the interesting mechanics. Fighting alongside Illidan felt awesome, the Rogues flying dagger was cool too. The Zul'Heroics were all tonnes of fun and whilst I would have prefered something in Caverns to do with the Ancients and the Elementals, I will not complain.

Even back in Lich King, storming Ice Crowns underbelly was cool. The Forgemaster was awesome and the escape from the Lich King was a cool boss fight. I was a Hordie back then so doing it with Sylvanas was even better.

I would love it, if prior to every final raid, the devs sat down and thought - we should use Caverns of Time to tell them a story and set up the raid. 3-5 Dungeons (the more the better) giving us a bit of backstory into the raid.

Let us fight with Garrosh in the Arena.
Let us fight alongside Grom against some demons foreshadowing future demon expac.
Even better - let us die with Brox - to be taken away by a Broze Dragon and rewarded for valiance despite the odds.
Give us an origin story for Mida in the form of a raid. Yes - turn us into Goblins for it. We've been Humans, Nelves and Trolls....why not.

Dungeons are probably my favourite part of the game since they can be done whenever and without need for massive organisation. I am not the only one who feels this about them I am sure.

TL:DR - Its a fantasy video game - learn to read.
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90 Tauren Paladin
BKB
12945
I don't think the system for catch-up is an issue, really. It's not instant, sure, but between LFR, normals (with charms), crafted gear and valor points, you can catch up very fast.

I got my second Holy Paladin into LFR Throne within 3 days of hitting 90.

As for the dungeons being enjoyable, I disagree wholeheartedly. Currently, spamming these 5mans is a soulless blast through cutscenes and scripted rooms with strangers and trash that you may as well just pull to the boss. ...only you can't do that, because the scripting won't allow you to pull more than one pack at a time.

Do you really want to run a caverns of time instance 20 times a week? I sure remember how painful Hour of Twilight and Well of Eternity were. Please god no, not again. If we want to make dungeons an alternate gearing or catchup route, then we should at least make dungeons an enjoyable experience first.
Edited by Isseit on 17/04/2013 00:55 BST
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90 Gnome Warlock
8105
Agree with isseit.

I miss dungeons and I used HOT for the reasons suggested. Sometimes they were great fun, others a chore. LFR is similar I guess. The best solution is spamming old lfr with coins and a run or two on normals with coins

Elder charms rain from ToT, they are not hard to come by I make about 5k gold off sha crystals the runs give me i do go, lots of catchup routes with effort.

As bad as lfr is, I much rpefer a weekly option than a daily spamfest. Running LFR wings once vs running three dungeons 7 times a week. I know what i prefer.
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1 Pandaren Hunter
0
I like HoT dungeons. They had bosses with meaningful machanics that weren't so easy to overgear, yet they weren't overwhelming.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
15070
I miss more dungeons too. Not as a gear up mechanic but just for something to do.

The MoP dungeons I completely overgear to the point I feel sorry for healers running with me. they may as well just put /follow on me. LFR is the way to go to gear but the queues are far too long and the time commitment to wade through endless trash and then to wipe when the elegon floor falls away or tanks try to tank the WoTE bosses ontop of each other is too great.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
7785
To this point, Mists of Pandaria has seen the smallest number of gearing dungeons in the game's history. This isn't about a lack of content, as there's more than enough of that in general, but the five-man dungeon has fulfilled a number of traditional roles in its history and I feel it's to the detriment of the game that it's taken a back seat.


I agree. It is quite obvious that dungeons are right now less needed than ever, and as a result people are doing them less than ever.

16/04/2013 22:45Posted by Zellviren
The biggest issue, in my opinion, is the loss of the catch up mechanic in the progression curve.


It is not "lost". But it has definately being prolonged atm, by not having previous tier valor rewards available through justice points. This has toned down the dominant role of a dungeon where an alt with greens would gather insane amount of justice points by spamming dungeons for epics and at the same moment efficiently gaining valor points for higher quality epics.
It was not uncommon a tοon with partially green gear, with the completion of a single heroic to gain 4-5 upgrades simultaneously (2-3 from the instance one epic from justice points and one even better epic from valor points).

Catch up mechanisms around dragon soul was completely out of hand though.

Now, I understand the issue: the problem with the previous incarnation of this catch up system, the one we saw in Dragon Soul, had the rather unfortunate side effect of making the previous raiding tier absolutely redundant. We live in a world where content is coming out faster than ever, and I'm not sure that the developers could keep up with the demand even now if they were to allow people to wholeheartedly skip tiers as they did then.


That is one problem ofc. People are mindlesly spamming dungeons to get irrelevant -to the dungeon- gear. How many times can you run an instance before you re sick and tired of every little stone of it?
While doing that -for the gear- ppl behind the toons were losing large chanks of content simply because it would be stupid even to attempt them. Nothing could beat RDF in terms of efficiency and..."time is money friend!" :)

Content releases are insanely high, and that is v good.
LFR is available for previous tier now, and that boosts significantly the speed at which you can find a group and go over there and check em up.
Senarios aree seeking for a purpose and it seems that blizzard is targeting them toiwards a portion of the player base used to dungeons. The lack of tank and heal requirement makes the queuing very rapid!
The developing cost is much lower.
The locations already exist in the world.

You cannot beat a senario and now with "heroic" versions of them awarding 516, your problem regarding "catching up" will be solved!

Please, do not talk to me of heroic scenarios. I know what they're going to do, I know what they're being designed for, and I'm sure they'll be fun in and of themselves.


I did, but :)
I don't disagree with you about the lack of people doing the dungeons.
I don't disagree about the lack of purpose they currently have.
In my opinion dungeon should be dealt with now in a similar manner that raids do.
Design fewer of them and make them viable for a tier at a time. Then bring out a few more. THEY would be now the "relevant content".
Make the "heroic version" or whatever it is gonna be called with the prequisite to join as a group and that version should give rewards on par with LFR.
Make it also for that version to be higher tuned.
The "normal" version could be 6-8 item levels bellow.

This way people will avoid the mindless roflstomping of irrelevant content in the same places for an entire Expansion and Dungeons will get a role closer to Vanilla/TBC. Entertaining, reasonably challenging, reasonably rewarding.

It was Blizzard that gave casual players the opportunity to participate in the game's best content in WotLK, and get involved in "progression". In Cataclysm, brutally punishing content took that opportunity away to an extent, but at least there was dungeons to let players catch up. Now, not only is the content too punitive on normal mode, there is no viable catch up mechanic outside the ghetto of LFR and the meandering hope that what you need might drop.


Wrath had the best balance overall. Especially during and after Ulduar. Everything would fall in the right place. But they had to change it.
Now we re richer in -to do- things. Senarios, Pet Nattles, Daylies, world bosses. Still things need redefining.
One of the issues to be resolved is certainly a role for dungeons now that are just one of the many pathes to gear up (and not the most preffered one).
Make fewer of them and add more per tier. Quality over quantity.
And between you and me this particular set of instances was the most dissapointing i ve ever been exposed to. Simply horrible, but thats another story.

My two cents OP, you 're raising some valid concerns about dungeon's future i must say :)

Oh jesus you 're Zelviren?
What has happened to you? You re so...fluffy :S
Edited by Lorac on 17/04/2013 11:53 BST
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Community
I love 5mans, always did, they just seem to fit perfectly with what I enjoy most about WoW, playing with a small group of friends that also happen to be very good players.
For me this made heroic dungeons one of the most entertaining things about WoW ever since The Burning Crusade, followed only by Arenas and heroic Raiding.
So on that regard, totally agree, I would love to see more (heroic) dungeons popping up, but I don't necessarily agree that they’re needed because of catching up issues.

We’re aware that not everyone finds LFR entertaining, yet some of those players still run it for the drops, and of course… that’s not ideal. I mean, almost everyone enjoys the hunt for loot, it’s a big part of the MMORPG experience, but you should be having fun while doing it.
This is where I believe heroic scenarios and challenge modes can make a difference, those players will (hopefully) become more inclined to run these instead of LFR. (Or in addition to LFR; as some players will always go where there is at least 1 loot upgrade for them no matter what, and that’s ok.)
These rewards will have a higher ilvl than current LFR gear (still subject to change).
With the possibility for better rewards than LFR, I would expect to see skilled casual players choosing to do for example one challenge mode daily quest and one heroic scenario instead of an LFR wing.

Also important to notice, Ghostcrawler recently said that devs are considering making heroic scenarios require a pre-made group.
This is quite a change, and if that goes live I believe that we’re on the path for having content for just about every kind of player, new and casual players will have dungeons, dailies, LFR and Battlegrounds; casual (due to lack of time) but highly skilled players will have challenge modes, heroic scenarios and Arena/RBGs, and the more hardcore/highly skilled players will have normal and heroic raiding in addition to all the rest.

So would 5mans still make sense? Of course, there will still be players that probably prefer 5mans to any other type of content but unfortunately with the current pace of development, we need to decide between raids and dungeons, because that’s the issue, they compete with each other in terms of resources, and while I think we can and should always try to improve on this, in both the efficiency and efficacy in which we produce content, I believe that right now most players still prefer to have more raiding content than dungeon content.
We have dailies, heroic scenarios, challenge modes, LFR, crafting, BGs, RBGs and Arenas, all of these have the ability to provide more than enough gear to be able to start raiding (at least) on normal mode.

There needs to be some progression too, we don’t want players to ding 90 and jump directly into ToT normal, but if you’re in a guild that has run previous raids and is just trying to fill some of the open raiding spots, you can afford to take slightly less geared players and still maintain an overall decent average raid ilvl.
In the case of a new guild, you won’t have to wait too long before you step into ToT with all the options players have for gearing up that I’ve mentioned before, including previous raids.

I would also question the argument for skipping content. I could understand it if you’re close to the end of an expansion and you want to see the latest content before it “expires”, but otherwise, you’re just skipping on a lot of entertainment value. Personally, I still am quite fond of those old Kara alt-runs even when we were doing BT with mains. Having a path that you have to follow to evolve your characters is a good thing, too much skipping just devalues content even faster, content that could otherwise be a source of great entertainment. Personally it makes me a bit sad inside to see all that old content being somehow wasted away, what was once the glory and jewel of each of the previous expansions’ PvE content shines now somehow a little less bright and has devalued in a way that makes it almost obsolete, I only wish we could one day make all that content available for everyone to experience again the way it was designed to be experienced in a seamless fashion. Oh well, blues can get nostalgic and dream too you know :’)

I'm quite excited to see how heroic scenarios will turn out, and also for the changes being applied to the challenge mode rewards, I'm hoping to see a lot of players running both of these, and I will for sure be one of them.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14185
I'll have to agree with every point that the Original poster has stated so far. I enjoyed the zandalari dungeons thoroughly, and i would really like more of that type of content. Easily accessible, challenging, Purposeful and dynamic content that doesn't get stale after two runs. A scenario get stale after two runs. One wing of LFR gets stale after two runs. A daily quest gets stale after two runs. The magic of the 5-man dungeon is that it does not.

Also, i'll have to ask, what changes are being made to challenge mode loot? A bag added to the end of the instance, or is there anything more? Will ilv 476 gear drop from the bosses? I'm not seeing the propsals you are referring us to, Taepsilum.

About the issue with development priorities, why not give fans what they want? Players have been making their respectable opinions heard about the tedious elements that are attached to dailies and LFR, and the lack of social aspects in Scenarios and LFR.

Scenarios are great additions to the game, but they were initially intended to replace group quests for low levels, not dungeons for max level players.

And where is the statistics that show if players want more raiding content than raid content? Analyse how many players are running dungeons and how many players are running raids. Do the math and i'm sure you'll see that things are different. Make an ingame poll where players can upvote their favourite content, so that you guys and gals at blizzard can really see what the players want.

But i guess you guys don't have any room for that in your development schedule. That's why we go here to express our thoughts. But you dismiss them. The OP kindly asked for any blizzard representative to avoid discussion of scenarios. This subforum is called ''raids and dungeons'' so the things you are talking about are out of context, Taepsilum.
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90 Worgen Hunter
17600
I do dungeons on my hunter, preferably some time in the weekend. For the love of all that's nice and fluffy I cannot bring myself to queue for LFR on my main when I don't need the gear.

I would love new 5mans to keep my valor speedruns interesting, but do I want the devs to sacrifice precious time from creating the next raid or polish the upcoming War Effort? Hell no!
Feel free to knock me out of my seat, but my best bet is that hiring too many people isn't just an economical mess, but also a logistic mess.

As a retired raider (for now), I don't approve of more 5mans as it stands. Blizzard are probably already discussing precise release dates for the upcoming expansion. We're too far in now to mash something in between.
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90 Human Death Knight
14380
LFR, as the sole catch up, is not a solution.

I can say now that with the previous tier being accessible to pug, that I'm actually getting a lot more out of the game. It's old content, but seen through new eyes in a new role, it does offer something new.

I'd felt that was supposedly the intention behind Mogushan Vaults last tier; that it'd be the "Puggable start up raid"; something GC said was missing in Tier 11. At that time, with the removal of 10 man difficulty, and both raiding formats effectively being "scaled up" to where 25 man difficulty level was balanced, a lot of guilds felt they hit a brick wall very quickly and there wasn't content to "go back" to, to gear up and get back into. Something previous tiers and 10 man raids had offered during Wrath.

Obviously, LFR was introduced in Dragon Soul to fill that 'void', as clearly Firelands simply wasn't adequate content with just 7 bosses to keep players occupied; as well as having built up a reputation for it's difficulty which acted as a deterrent all its own, as was the case during Firelands for T11 in spite of their nerfs.

I think, obviously, the main problem last tier was specifically Elegon. That instance simply didn't need a roadblock in it. If it was comfortably puggable as all the other bosses are, dailies would have felt less mandatory, alts wouldn't have been neglected, and the Valor Cap a less distant dream. Heart of Fear, Terrace and Heroic modes would have offered enough content to keep most mortals busy up to the wire.

I honestly don't think LFR is aimed at the same sort of audience. I think that, because I don't feel it's aimed at me. As a means of 'gear catch up', I actually feel it's pretty awful because, maybe I just have bad luck in there. But more importantly, LFR isn't very sociable. My biggest dread tanking it is what the other tank is going to be like not anyhing to do with mechanics. At least in old content I can go with a full group of people I know and raid cooldowns, strategies etc can be comfortably discussed without having to worry about antisocial elements.

With that in mind, I don't think an extra tier of dungeons is really necessary. If I wanted to do a dungeon, it'll be because I wanted the VPs or a challenge with friends; LFD offers the former, Challenge modes offer both (although the latter is rather difficult to put together, since their rewards are character bound and everyone wants to go on their mains). I understand people might be bored of and want a change of scenery for doing those, but let's face it, they get old fast and you out gear them even faster.

I think Heroic Scenarios can offer that change of scenery and challenge, as well as new progression path, and if they can do it without sucking resources from making raids, then I'm all for it.
Edited by Necrecia on 17/04/2013 17:12 BST
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90 Goblin Priest
13465
My plea is this
Would it not be possible to devote some time to creating 10man dungeons on a grand scale a'la the old Blackrock Depths size, just a couple as an experiment in a future expansion or patch?

The rewards should be nothing more then a standard loot table with equal gear to the normal 5man dungeons, perhaps a chance to gain a pet or mount from one of the bosses which is randomly chosen by the system, so there's an added layer of surprise for players.

While I am against the LF-tools, I don't mind these dungeons being part of the LF features to reach a broad group of players, but put the difficulty a tad higher then the current heroic dungeons so there's a little investment from players instead of the standardised auto-pilot mode while chain pulling.

I am asking because I genuinely feel the current 5mans, LFR which predominantly is a solo "raid" instance regardless if you que up with multiple friends and scenario's, leave players with very little sociable content.

A 10man instance outside of the raiding scene, would be big enough to gather a good amount of friends without having to be too picky, but not so big or brutal in challenge that it would be a challenge in itself to find 1-2 players from the realm a person is placed on, or from a friends friend-list.

I'm quite excited to see how heroic scenarios will turn out, and also for the changes being applied to the challenge mode rewards, I'm hoping to see a lot of players running both of these, and I will for sure be one of them.


It seems the solution now a days is to throw additional items or currency at content that failed in attracting players to begin with, I can not for the life of me, align myself or even remotely understand that train of thought.

You state time and memorial, that it's a game and you're primary objective is to ensure there's content for the wast majority to have fun with, while at the same time chose to ignore your forum users request for more 5man / 10m dungeons, and then have the audacity to claim that dungeons and scenario's "compete" for resources in terms of development.

Where's the competition if players didn't want to run said scenario's to begin with?- where's the fun if the statement is clear as daylight from your player base?

At this point you're stating players only run content for currency or items, and that you will tell us what is fun, maybe not in you're own words.., but the point behind the above isn't difficult to decipher.
Edited by Matarack on 17/04/2013 18:04 BST
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90 Human Death Knight
14380
You state time and memorial, that it's a game and you're primary objective is to ensure there's content for the wast majority to have fun with, while at the same time chose to ignore your forum users request for more 5man / 10m dungeons, and then have the audacity to claim that dungeons and scenario's "compete" for resources in terms of development.

I think you're missing the important truth that scenarios and challenge modes "excuse" rehashing of content. Dungeons and raids require all new areas.
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85 Dwarf Hunter
1025
Also important to notice, Ghostcrawler recently said that devs are considering making heroic scenarios require a pre-made group. This is quite a change, and if that goes live I believe that we’re on the path for having content for just about every kind of player, new and casual players will have dungeons, dailies, LFR and Battlegrounds; casual (due to lack of time) but highly skilled players will have challenge modes, heroic scenarios and Arena/RBGs, and the more hardcore/highly skilled players will have normal and heroic raiding in addition to all the rest.

Though an active lurker I tend to stay fairly clear of posting on the forum, but I had to raise a question arising from this part of your post. Is it your position, or the position of Blizzard in general, that normal raiding should be targeted at and balanced for the more hardcore/highly skilled players?

To cut a long and involved story short, the balancing of normal raiding in MoP has largely killed my main's guild,* as over the months it became clear that the same people who were able to enjoyably and successfully raid through the latter part of WotLK and the bulk of Cataclysm did not, on average, match up to the required standard of normal raids in this expansion.

Is it the honest position of Blizzard that people of our level should be satisfied with LFR? The evidence is overwhelming that LFR is both allowing more people than ever to see the content, and that there are enormous numbers of these people who are enjoying seeing the content, but this word, 'see', is really the crux of the issue for me. LFR, for me, and for many others in my main's guild who have faded away over the course of MoP so far, is, literally, 'seeing' the content, not really engaging with it. Everyone who has run LFR consistently, I'm sure, will have found people who are not actually doing anything but nonetheless receive the same rewards as those who try their hardest. Engagement with the content - and, being honest, the social side of raiding that is necessarily so absent from LFR - has always been a vital ingredient of raiding for me, and so although I've always put my all into LFR, I can never be really satisfied with content where I am aware that I could gain the same rewards if I did nothing at all.

If this is the position of Blizzard then I understand that. You cannot - as the forums bear daily witness - keep everyone happy, and chasing after that chimera would be, I'm sure, an infinite sink for development time. I am however aware that the various other people my main's guild have lost over the course of MoP and myself have not ever aired their grievances, and so cannot really hope to be listened to. This post, then, is simply my attempt to bring attention to a subset of WoW's population that feels no longer catered for by the current raiding environment. We're not asking for loot to be doled out for free, and we're not terrified of evenings of wipes, but we seem to have lost a middle ground that once existed at the normal difficulty.

* I am posting on an alt because the guild still exists and I don't want this to break down into an argument of how terrible they and I must be
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20 Tauren Warrior
8905
I'm quite excited to see how heroic scenarios will turn out, and also for the changes being applied to the challenge mode rewards, I'm hoping to see a lot of players running both of these, and I will for sure be one of them.


I think this should be made available as unorganized challenging group content, as there is none since mid of cataclysm.

Linking a challenge to the level of organization was based on the failure of the challenging 5 man dungeons in early cata, which were available via df. But this is a fallacy, as those 5 man dungeons were a brickwall for everyone.

If challenging content would not be part of the normal progression path, it also could be challenging by offering access using the dungeon finder, as any request for a nerf just could be answered with viable options to gear up for the next stage of content.

As like if you would need LFR 5.2 for LFR 5.4 as prerequisite, and just could skip the heroic scenarios.

I think it would work to make heroic scenarios accessible to a large audience via df, if just noone would listen to complains to nerf them.
Edited by Schmonz on 17/04/2013 18:46 BST
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73 Worgen Druid
4850
17/04/2013 16:17Posted by Taepsilum
I only wish we could one day make all that content available for everyone to experience again the way it was designed to be experienced in a seamless fashion.


X-D I bet you smiled as you wrote that, ;)
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90 Orc Warlock
16245
True reason why there are less dungeons and more scenarios is that scenarios do not require new environments, artwork etc..

In short it's less work for them and they can still label it as new content even though it's rehash.

Saying that you make more scenarios because there is high demand for them simply isn't true.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
7785
Saying that you make more scenarios because there is high demand for them simply isn't true.


What it was implied is that they will try something else with them (heroic senarios), give em rewards higher than current LFR rewards in anticipation of atracting a broader audience.

I don't think he said that people are swarming in the senario queues right now.

Personally i like what they are trying to do. Offering a lot of actual alternatives (as oposed to fake ones) can't be a bad thing.

We just have to get used to the idea that in order to enjoy smt you skip smt else. Time is not unlimited and min maxing went too far and took the fun away from the game.

As fas as dungeons are concerned though, i think that being hooked around the challenge mode idea for dungeons is not the best thing to do. Still i am gonna give it a shot this time around.

Neither having dungeons awarding Rep+rewards from rep, Gear from the place + plus previous tier epics through justice points + Current tier epics through valor points was right. It was WAY too much!

I think Ghostcrawler called it "double dipping" at the begining of Xpac replying to people asking for tabbard system back. In my opinion it was way more even that that.
It was insane, irrational, and it was spoiling the comunity to the ultimate degree.
Edited by Lorac on 17/04/2013 21:11 BST
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90 Tauren Druid
17025
Personally I have to disagree. I never liked the dungeon catch up mechanic, in fact I hated it.

You end up running the same dungeons throughout the expansion and its gets mind numbingly boring.

In Cataclysm, the 4.0 heroics eventually gave better gear then the raids that were meant to come after them, making loads of stuff obsolete and useless within the same expansion that they were developed and released!

One thing I've really enjoyed with MoP is having a progression path which is not instantly reset on the next patch (and making all of your accomplishments worth nothing). LFR is not perfect, but I've really enjoyed gradually gearing my character up through the raids which Blizzard spent lots of time developing - rather then returning to 5 mans which I vastly outgear in order to get better gear then the raids I should have been experiencing. (Even typing it out just highlights the bad logic).

I understand how this can effect raiding guilds, I used to lead one during Classic, TBC and WotLK. If someone leaves, it can create a bit of a void. But that is just part of life, and heck, my character isn't even in a raiding guild and my ilevel is almost 500. People aren't going to come to your raiding guild in just greens and heroic blues like in the old days when I had to run guilds!
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