Topic PvP Resignation
Edited by Qwertie on 02/06/13 23:43 (BST)
Well, we've come to a very special place...
My personal feelings towards Warrior PvP have reached an all-time low. To me, it seems like there are so many issues that Blizzard just don't care about resolving. So many gaps, flaws, scars (old and new), and shortcomings.
I think the Warrior GCD is a problem. It isn't in PvE, of course. 1.5seconds seems fine and let's face it: You're going to be stabbing a dragon in the !@# for 12 minutes, how quickly you press buttons probably isn't THAT much of an issue. You need to do your thing for 30 seconds until the blue-laser hits the boss and you have to intercept it... (I miss Intercept, lol_) ANYWAY...
IN PVP... the extra 0.5 seconds of our GCD, compared to DKs... and Rogues... Shamans... Monks... and well, most Melee, means one thing. Our characters react slower. For instance, you hit a mage in the face. You then have to wait 1.5sec before you can Stormbolt! A DK Obliterating that same mage? He only has to wait 1.0sec before doing whatever DKs do to mages. Being able to react quicker makes so much of a difference.
I'm not 100% sure on how the mathematics should look.. but the simple fact that a Rogue or DK can hit 4 skills in the time we can hit 3 means that they're more likely to be able to react to the situation first. Ah! you say... "But what about the times when the character needs to react after 1.3sec! Warriors only have to wait .2sec to do something whereas Rogues have to wait .7sec! And you're right.. but we're talking about percentages here. In a 12sec window, most melee can 'do 12-13 things'... Warriors can only do 8. This obviously doesn't include some skills, but Disarm, Stormbolt, Shockwave/Bladestorm/Dragon Roar, Shattering Throw... all of these skills are affected by the Global cooldown, meaning we're less reactive to and, on average, have less opportunity to react to enemy actions.
It's... dated.. and frustrating. And what's worse, is that our resource system too-greatly limits how and when we use our clutch abilities.
Look at Shattering Throw.. arguably the most stupidly designed and anti-QoL skill in the game. It has four prereqs. First, that you're facing the target; second, that you have 25 rage; third, that you complete a 1.5sec cast; and fourth, that the ability is off it's 5min cooldown. Why is this clutch ability A, on the GCD; B, stuck with such a high rage-cost; C, complete with cast time; and D, on a 5min CD?! Compared to Mass Dispel.. which has ruined and imbalanced PvP for years!
Next, look at Staggering Shout. It is... terrible. A highly situational ability that now breaks on damage. Unless someone has managed to snare a whole other RBG team, or your Hunter is kiting some adds, this ability sucks. In most cases, you're not going to be in that situation... you're going to be facing 2-3 mobs or enemies, and the only Mass-Snare Warriors have is Piercing Howl - WHICH IS ON THE SAME TIER?! Staggering Shout makes... NO SENSE for the cost it comes at (which is high: One talent point and a 45sec CD) ...this is in comparison to the BASELINE [AND STOLEN FROM WARRIORS] Disable (that monks have) that offers a FREE root on any snared target. So not only do WW have two reliable snares (Disable and Flying Kick) but they can also root snared targets, AND the initial snare is refreshed for free, and there's also no COOLDOWN on the ability. (I've levelled a monk to get a feel for how they work, hence Monk! <------
Anyway, I don't get it. I feel nothing but absolute fury because of how unfair and cancerous this is. Not only do monks have better escapes, better mobility, and better utility, but they also have 'our' original Improved Hamstring.... except there's no CD... and it doesn't have to be their snare on the target... and ALL Specs get this. You want more free roots? The Shiv effect of Paralytic poison (that faceroll Rogue talent that some of them take) roots the target for 4 seconds (Shiv has a 8-12sec CD, by the way (not 45sec like our Shout), and the target doesn't actually need to be affected by the poison for the Rogue to Shiv the effect on them)... it's.... easy. And RIGHT THERE.. for the lowly cost of 20 energy.. and a 1.0sec GCD. Oh, and this 4-sec root on a 12-sec CD? It doesn't break on damage. ......... :/
Warriors used to have higher HP... and PLATE ARMOUR THAT MEANT SOMETHING... but the disparity between cloth and plate has narrowed... most damage in the game is spell damage, making what little protection our armour offers almost unimportant.
Maybe I'm missing something.. Maybe there's a secret to game balance that I just can't see. Either way, I've had enough of pretending that 'Warriors are fine!' when actually, they're not. They might be okay for PvE, but for PvP they're slow, limited by a dated and awkward recourse. No other classes are as gimped by their defenses as much as we are. it's even worse for fury.
Fury warriors can't use RAGING BLOW or WILD STRIKE when they have a shield equipped. Common sense, if you look at the tooltip, but how is that remotely fair?! Looking at Icy Veins Advanced DPS Guide for Fury Warriors is something to behold. The amount of balance and fidelity and effort that goes into setting up a Colossus Smash burst window is pretty scary. That 6-sec window literally accounts for MASSIVE amounts of Fury DPS... Now try and do that in PvP. You can't... fine.. I get that, no-one gets to do their PvE rotation in PvP, but even when the opportunity arises to go for a kill, their damage window is just so small!
Add that to the shield fiasco, and the Heroic Leap bugs, the Banner Placement bugs, the weapon-macro bugs (which were rife (and reported) on PTR), the lack of quality of life^^, the crappy talents. I can't be bothered. Rage is such a bad resource system.. it's unreliable, awkward, even if the GCD rolls around, the chances are that you don't meet the requirements for a shattering throw anyway. There was nothing wrong with Glyph of Gag order working ONLY with Heroic Throw. Warriors got a 30sec blanket silence and that was probably okay. Instead of THINKING the glyph through and removing Pummel from it, they just made it PvE only. Another stupid decision that pulled Warriors' trousers down and made use HORRIBLE for patch 5.2.
If you're in a place where you enjoy your warrioring, then good for you. Me? I've had enough... of bugs, of being an NPC class with no niche, poor utility, crap and unreliable mobility, and a resource system that just doesn't work for the pace of today's WoW PvP. What would I do? I don't know... probably overhaul the class. Create a rage mechanic whereby my character being 'unlucky' with Bloodthirsts didn't mean I was sat around for 4.5seconds while a DK hit me with an Outbreak and two Obliterates.
I love the idea of Fury Warrioring.. and PvP is what I love most about WoW. It just seems as though the two aren't meant to be. Even Arms is bad for the reasons mentioned. Slow, cumbersome, limited, free-kill, and squishy... and clunky! Thats' how things feel.
All other classes have their resource to hand, ready to FIGHT. Energy, full, Focus, full, Runes, refreshed, cooldowns, sorted. Warriors SLOWLY earn this rage stuff and take too long to get going. And why on Earth SMF feels as slow and boring as Arms is beyond me. If ANY SPEC in the game should have a lower GCD, it's SMF. :/
Oh well, it was fun while it lasted. Seasons 9-10... Throwdown, Intercept, 6-sec Reflection...
Looking at the Create a character page... and NOTHING says "Fun" like a plate-clad Panda Warrior going crazy in AB or Twin Peaks... the reality is that the 'Fun' is a lie. Or doesn't actually exist. We're just too behind the times. :(
I say we... but I won't be including myself in that anymore. I'm a nobody, my misery wont' 'do anything'... but I guess I don't know what else to do about my Class:Spec being so gimped in PvP - other than write on the forums! Nowhere else to go... no other game to play, no other class to fall in love with... the only thing I love about WoW is... crap and not fun.
What's sunshine like? Does it hurt? ...
The first experience I had with warrior in pvp was to get full blue pvp gear.. charge > 5-10k MS crit > stunned > dead. First I thought it was a gear issue, but was wondering why a blue pvp set, could not complete with the first and 2nd season in the expansion. I've then gathered a full malevolent set, and Im now doing 20-30k ms. And before the patch I could do 50k crits on low geared chars, but now im back to 20k ms crits again :D I believe the problem is not only the subpar dmg, but the fact that we have to be in MELEE range and we absolutely lack tools to be there in the first place. A trinket and 2 charges + heroic leap + avatar, which you would use for burst dmg aswell, just doesn't cut it when there is been added stupidly amount of cc. Heck I can't even escape with my druid anymore duo to instant reappliable cc's, how on earth would a warrior be able to keep up with anyone?
I agree everything you just posted here.
Blizzard doesnt want to give warriors 1s GCD because they want warriors to be different, "oldschool" etc. We also have more abilities out of the global cd than any other class there. (cleave/heroic strike/pummel). So it is not true that we do only 8 things in 12 second window.
Also Overpower and hamstring has lowered GCD.
The Monk root is straight copy of ours from cata. Our root really really sucks.
had enough this evening after facing... monks...monks, priests, more priests, hunters, Mages, rogues... getting hardcountered all the time worse than 5.2, i mean, at least i mannaged 1700 that season, now, its just impossible with all the bugs and the new battlefattigue, seriusly, there are soo many classes with good kiting abillity that hav a too easy time making battlefattigue fall off and im wearing the dam thing 24/7 unless i wanna LoS my healeror tottaly reset my dps on target...
I had enough of almost evry class hardcountering warriors! is that supposed to be the standard of the game??? that evry class can have a good time vs warriors? seriusly blizzard, stick your game up your big incompetent "##¤/&, canccling my subscribtion NOW, i dont pretend anybody will care, im just saying nobody should pay that "¤%hole company a dime for this game.
Edited by Hámí on 04/06/13 03:58 (BST)
I have to go against you, alot was true but not this bad. I have a fully geared DK, a fully geared mage yet I recently rolled a warrior and I'm having a blast with it today. If I was searching for the "best" class, I would probably stayed as mage or perhaps my DK. But warriors are fun, the mobility is not the worst of melee classes either, the rage system is less complex than DK's systems, you have so many non gcd spells, likely the class with most non gcd abilities in fact. I can go on and on about good things about warriors but I think you get the point. The nerfs in 5.2 where just disguisting, but warriors are still viable. I struggle quite alot in pvp, but I find ways around it somehow with this class, there are so many tactics involved in pvp and certainly not a 2 button class.
I just love my warrior and I'm gonna stick with him a long time I belive, I don't care for buffs or nerf, if I'm having fun as a warrior I play warrior whatever happens.
What I'm trying to say is that, it doesn't take too long to reroll, maybe warrior isn't your "type", try something else, I tried pvp with 3 classes until I found that one special and fun class.
EDIT: I still requested a sticky, as I said, most of the things you mentioned was unfortunately true about the class.
Edited by Feud on 05/06/13 01:43 (BST)
I agree with everything the OP is saying, I feel warrior had more utility back in 2007 than they do today...
So many poor choices from the devs regarding this class, so many unnecessary bugs and limitations to what a warrior can do is ruining this class and making the game a very unfair and not fun experience to play.
pvp is in ruins atm.
Edited by Dumahim on 05/06/13 11:53 (BST)
I usually never read the long posts but this time I did and I have to agree with you.
I'm still won't quit thou, cuz as they say, hope dies last.
But 80% of my playing time revolves around PvP-ing and I must say I'm feeling so frustrated with the state the warrior is in atm :/
Edit: requested sticky
Totally agree with OP.
Would like to add than back in vanilla "stance-dancing" actually meant something and was a great deal of fun and would be considered a nice way of seperating the "noobs" with the more skilled players. Nowadays I just run around in def stance raged starve tryin to tickle someones toes so they can laugh to death. Bring back skills to certain stances and have us swap stances alot more.
When I started playing a warrior back in vanilla it was the class I had dreamed of. Big massive muscular dude wearing the finest armor swinging a huge weapon at someones face. "Don't let me get near you or I will stomp you" was my motto and alot of fun.
Now I find myself sometimes hiding and kiting enemy's trying to get my second wind ticks off so I can get a decent amount of health before I go back in again. It's silly that I have to run away, I wanna be in there killing stuff. Not be charging in, tickle tickle and leap back out again.
Maybe we see it differently to the developers. It looks like GC doesn't agree that the GCD is an issue. Which is fine.. I appreciate that things like DBTS and Charge are off the GCD. But it still doesn't explain any of the other stuff.
Incanter's Ward (Mage T90) gives them a 15% damage boost for 25 seconds. In PvP it reliably procs, because the idea of PvP since the dawn of time has been to smash mages in the face.
In BGs and RBGs, they can reliably get this damage boost (because it only lasts for one melee swing, or maybe a special). "Well, they've got that, we've got Avatar, both Tier90 - seems fair?"
And it might have been... if Incanter's Ward didn't have a 25sec CD despite Avatar having a CD more than SIX TIMES that amount at 3Mins or 180 seconds. We OBLITERATE Incanter's Ward easily. Mages don't care. Why? Because escaping a Warrior is like taking candy from a baby. We used to have a Charge to every Blink... and in some cases we kind of do.. But in addition to the Blink they now have more Freezes, Blazing Speed (Which completely negates Hamstring and also I THINK Piercing Howl)... Add that to Ice Ward, Frost Nova, Pet Nova... anyway, I digress... We're talking about Talents at the moment.
I don't think ours are much fun, and when you look at Avatar compared to Incanter's Ward, you have to wonder how Blizzard came to that kind of decision. A 15% damage boost (given the madness and damage in PvP) with what is probably an 80% but as much as 99% uptime. Maybe that's Mages damage tier.. But the fact that all three mage specs are topping SimCraft T15 charts (although we should take that patchwerk stuff only on its honest merits) probably means they don't need it. In PvP? Mages end up doing A LOT more than Warriors do thanks to CC, Novas, Poly, etc. So that 15% damage is likely to be used to good/full effect. Our Avatar used to act as a 20sec freedom. Along with everything else, it was gutted for 5.2. I think we're all quite aware of why we needed that 'Freedom' and why Avatar was originally on a 1min/10-sec duration.
I suppose it's stuff like that which bothers me. And just how rusty some of the mechanics are. I played a Combat Rogue today. They're so... fluid! Energy has a lot to do with that, but everything comes with such a quality of life! If you've ever played one, you'll have used the Blade Flurry talent (it's here: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=13877) What struck me first was that it hits 4 enemies and it's a toggle ability. A very good cleave, to be sure.. but the range is AWESOME... Literally, you can stand on top of a level 60 dummy in SW and it'll hit the dummy next to you. A good 8 yards away. Sweeping Strikes? I get that it doesn't affect Rage generation (other than the 30 rage it takes to activate) but you have to be RIGHT NEXT to both mobs or it's wasted. Much like with Shattering Throw, there's no quality of life. :/
Here's an idea. Delete Sweeping Strikes. It's messy. What we should do instead, it make Berserker Stance the Cleave Stance. Have Berserker Stance turn all your abilities, or at least some, into Cleave abilities. It would bring back stance dancing, it could have the same range as Blade Flurry, and even if ZS only modified 4-5 abilities (HS/Cleave, MS, BT, RB, Slam, WS, whatever) it'd be awesome! Balance it! GC mentioned that Warriors wouldn't like the empty GCDs - so FILL THEM - but anyway, Balance the Cleave Stance... Have the ability damage split between all targets and maybe provide a 2% damage boost for every mob hit?
I'm really looking forward to the PTR. Do you know why? No.. but I'm going to tell you. I think our developers are smart. They HAVE to see how much Warriors are struggling in PvP. Changing Stances for a -25% damage buff but rage-starving yourself in the process isn't fun, and it isn't classy. What WOULD be classy, would be some PvP love in 5.4. I'm not talking about getting rolled over (which warriors still do) but I'm talking about a new toolset. A maintenance check for our damage vehicle from awesomeville (our Warriors) Check mobility, be more liberal with Heroic Leap, give us a decent root, some grip, and (dare I say it) some sort of CONTROLLED regeneration. You can't use Lay on Hands in arenas if you're a paladin, but, honestly, some of the heals that Rets, Druid Cats, and Shamans throw out mean you probably should - because they heal for very similar amounts!
Warriors deserve more. We need more tools and we need the ones we have to be better. Disable is a BETTER version of Hamstring. Earthgrab is a BETTER version of Staggering Shout (overall). Blood Presence is a better version of Defensive Stance. Shadowstep is better than Charge. Blade Flurry is better than Sweeping Strikes. Fok, SCK, Howling Blast, and Swipe are better AoEs than Whirlwind (easier to activate, better QoL). Warriors just need some love. The guy on WoW Insider agrees. We're simply ill equipped. We don't have enough tools.
As the level cap has advanced, more and more classes have been given skills and abilities that push and even break the boundaries. Rogues heal fairly well with Recup+Leeching Shiv. Paladins have great mobility (Emancipate, Freedom Clemency, Cleanse, T15) Casters cast while moving (more than not!) Healers have great CC and respectable damage, considering. Warriors were built as hybrids, but our hybrid stuff sucks. Shield-use is under-realised; banners are clunky, and we're limited to one at a time; our stuns all DR with each other (unlike Rogues 'stuns+proc stuns' i.e. CS >> Paralytic Proc) meaning that someone who takes Warbringer, Shockwave and Storm Bolt is getting a really crappy deal (maybe without knowing it!)
Armour doesn't do enough. Neither do our talents. Neither do our stances. And... neither are the PvP design team. :/
Edited by Lastkiss on 06/06/13 07:04 (BST)
The thing is,everything is getting worse aslong as blizzard try to fix warrior.1.5 sec GCD is not acceptable for sure..but blizz defending it by claim "but you have heroic strike which isnt in GCD so in 1.5 seconds you can do higher damage with heroic strike." But it asks +30 rage no one talking about it.how often you can use heroic strike in pvp guys because i really cant using often,its more likely very rare..make it 10 rage like OP then?i think blizz thinking like our rage regen same as energy,we are getting 10 rage per second -.- I can say that im happy with my warrior in pvp besides 1.5 sec GCD foolness.its just big offense on warrior soul..just 3 years ago,we have to change stance for use pummel,we had no stun,pummel was on global cooldown.so as a people who had those times,aslong as i have shockwave and storm on different talent ters i will stick to my warrior.maybe we need GCD get reduced to 1 seconds and we need enraged regeneration as a baseline ability tho!because sad to see too many classes have both better "first 2 minutes damage output" and "first 2 minutes better healing"
Edited by Feud on 06/06/13 18:38 (BST)
Ghostcrawler has read this thread and responded to it!
here is the link
I suggest you guys head on over to twitter if you have an account and talk to him fast, regarding the current concerns and problems we all are having playing the warrior class in pvp.
The warrior should be a dangerous class, they should hit hard as they are front line fighters always in the action and not standing in the background 45 yards away spamming one button.
Back in vanilla when a warrior layed into you, you knew about it! There is no reason why a warrior should not be masters of melle combat, we were the first! so today why should we be the last?..
They could atleast do something like free HS after every second overpower and reduce rage required for Piercing Howl to 5 and make it reduce movement speed by 60% in a hotfix or smthing before next patch. Its rly not smthing that requires months of work and testing.