Flexible Raid System / New 5.4 Feature!

90 Orc Warrior
13695
11/06/2013 00:28Posted by Schmonz
I am a teamplayer.


Thats just an excuse to complain. You want LFR removed, and take the worst reason available.


No i do not. I have never made such a statement, i have infact at several opportunities supported LFR. All i ask for is a shared loot lockout with normal/heroic.
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29 Gnome Warlock
8760
Don't know wether it has cropped up already, but will the scaling be done at the start of loading the Instance, or will it adjust while playing ie thirteen went in but two had to drop soon after?

Besides curiosity, Gevlon the Greedy Goblin made an interesting point about what may very well happen if scaling went on 'past the door'

http://blessingofkings.blogspot.nl/2013/06/flexible-raiding.html


I think flexible raids are a horrible mistake, because the best way to increase the chance of group success is kicking the lowest member. You lose a below-average DPS and the boss loses average amount of DPS requirement.

While a 10-man meant someone had to sit out, that's just annoying but not hurting. Now imagine that the raid leader says: X, we can't kill it with you, please leave and then the boss died BECAUSE he wasn't there.


Of course the prime target audience of Flex are hyper-social Guilds, but not all realms are big enough to sustain a plethora of viable Guilds, and in general there are plenty of examples of the less-than-sociable nature of too many Raid Gullds/Leaders, so I do think Gevlon made a valid point.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
7375
All i ask for is a shared loot lockout with normal/heroic.

Won't fly, as Ghostcrawler already pointed out - it would lead to people having to refuse joining a guild/friends raid because they already ran LFR.

Stop calling your OSD or your GM's douchebaggery "teamplay" and "being a raider", 'cause it ain't. And no, people who don't like LFR and in result don't run it are not selfish or non-raiders either. They just don't share your nor your GM's disorder, whichever one it happens to be.

Just to remind you what you have already said in other topic:
If you are against NM/HM raiders running LFR then just don't run it. Some people on my raid team do LFR, some don't. We still are 12/12 as of last ID.
Your point is invalid.
A raider will do what a raider can do.

My point is only irrelevant for selfish non-teamplayers.

It's also irrelevant to everyone for whom this game is not a day job nor military service nor replacement for IRL social life. And even more.
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90 Orc Warrior
13695
11/06/2013 16:35Posted by Pendolino
All i ask for is a shared loot lockout with normal/heroic.

Won't fly, as Ghostcrawler already pointed out - it would lead to people having to refuse joining a guild/friends raid because they already ran LFR.

I really honestly do not see how. I atleast would still help out my friends even though there was no loot in the picture for me.

Ghostcrawlers attitude is just disgusting.

Stop calling your OSD or your GM's douchebaggery "teamplay" and "being a raider", 'cause it ain't. And no, people who don't like LFR and in result don't run it are not selfish or non-raiders either. They just don't share your nor your GM's disorder, whichever one it happens to be.

Teamplay is teamplay regardless of the setting. Imagine football (thats a hobby, just like gaming) practice where 5 players are really interested in actually improving themself, while the rest are not bothered at all and would rather just stand in their own little place kicking the ball to a wall over and over. Sounds like a good mix?

Just to remind you what you have already said in other topic:

A raider will do what a raider can do.

My point is only irrelevant for selfish non-teamplayers.

It's also irrelevant to everyone for whom this game is not a day job nor military service nor replacement for IRL social life. And even more.


Probably a bit harsh words, i do not look down on more casual players at all. I just do not wish to run their content in order to better myself at my own content. Can it really be that hard to understand?
Edited by Grimreaper on 12/06/2013 15:41 BST
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90 Human Rogue
9260
So, how is this going to work out on small realms?
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20 Tauren Warrior
8905
So, how is this going to work out on small realms?


I think this is just another issue to be solved.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
15650
So, how is this going to work out on small realms?


I'd assume the fact that it is possible x-realm will provide the possibility and sites like open raid will provide the opportunity. Best case scenario, you might end up making some friends. I still have the raggy hc runs guy from openraid on my real id.
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20 Tauren Warrior
8905
I still have the raggy hc runs guy from openraid on my real id.


So it is still possible to make friends ingame. People just often dont really try.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
7375
Probably a bit harsh words, i do not look down on more casual players at all. I just do not wish to run their content in order to better myself at my own content. Can it really be that hard to understand?

Want me 120% serious? Without the normal load of insults and taunts?
It really doesn't sound good. Your level of devotion to a team playing a video game and more than likely not doing it professionally is seriously worrying. Are you really sure it's worth it?
Are you sure your approach is something really common?

Once again: in the name of what you call team play you make yourself do something you hate again and again and again. Or at least you claim to do so. This is simply wrong. If you're not shi.t.ting us all, you have a serious issue and it will get worse, because your negative reception of LFR *will* spread. It will poison your thoughts not only on the mass of other players (it already has, you don't seem worried that for example folks like me would never get to do any Normal because our baseline is LFR and Normal is an exciting optional extra) but in time it will also affect your relationship with your team.

Is running MSV HC instead of ToT LFR really so unnacceptable? Why?
How about more subtle approach: looting an item in Normal makes you loot only gold bags in LFR that week? Would such a change solve your problem?
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5835
Obviously the Virutal Realms will solve a lot of the problem I have been experiencing. I shall complain no more... This patch now has 3 great features. Best patch ever.
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90 Orc Warrior
13695
12/06/2013 02:34Posted by Pendolino
Probably a bit harsh words, i do not look down on more casual players at all. I just do not wish to run their content in order to better myself at my own content. Can it really be that hard to understand?

Want me 120% serious? Without the normal load of insults and taunts?
It really doesn't sound good. Your level of devotion to a team playing a video game and more than likely not doing it professionally is seriously worrying. Are you really sure it's worth it?
Are you sure your approach is something really common?

Once again: in the name of what you call team play you make yourself do something you hate again and again and again. Or at least you claim to do so. This is simply wrong. If you're not shi.t.ting us all, you have a serious issue and it will get worse, because your negative reception of LFR *will* spread. It will poison your thoughts not only on the mass of other players (it already has, you don't seem worried that for example folks like me would never get to do any Normal because our baseline is LFR and Normal is an exciting optional extra) but in time it will also affect your relationship with your team.

So you have never had a hobby that you actually wanted to be good at? Something you loved with a passion? Something that makes self-inflicted pain worth what it gains? (i'm sure a lot of people who do sports semi-proffesional dont always enjoy working out)

If you cant relate to that there really is no way to make you understand.

Is running MSV HC instead of ToT LFR really so unnacceptable? Why?

Gear is not better and it takes 10 hours instead of 2.
How about more subtle approach: looting an item in Normal makes you loot only gold bags in LFR that week? Would such a change solve your problem?

Yes that would be very nice.
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Community
07/06/2013 16:05Posted by Pinpoint
Will the lockout be similar to LFR where you can run it again (with only 1 chance per week for loot) or will it be like normal, where you can only kill a boss once per week?

Right now, the idea is to have FR lockouts work very similarly to lockouts in LFR.
You will be able to repeat bosses, and that will actually still be somewhat rewarding, you’ll be able to use additional bonus rolls, earn Valor Points, and potentially loot some shinnies from trash...

There’s something unique about FRs though, I’ll explain it with an example:
Let's say you join a 12man and kill the first boss, leave the raid, and join a 20man, you might have to repeat the first boss.

"Might", so how does that work?
If everyone in the new 20man raid has already killed the first boss just like you did, then that boss will not spawn.
But even if only 1 of the players in that 20man has not killed the first boss, he will spawn again and everyone else will have to repeat the encounter.
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100 Goblin Shaman
10495
I am very pleased with this feature.

We are a 10N raiding guild, with a majority of serious casual players.

I'd be extremely happy if flex raids could start with a base of 8 players (2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 DPS).

The main reason being that we are sometimes forced to call a raid, mainly because one of our tank or healer is not available.

Flex Raids would then be a good alternative for such days!
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90 Night Elf Hunter
11820
There’s something unique about FRs though, I’ll explain it with an example:
Let's say you join a 12man and kill the first boss, leave the raid, and join a 20man, you might have to repeat the first boss.

"Might", so how does that work?
If everyone in the new 20man raid has already killed the first boss just like you did, then that boss will not spawn.
But even if only 1 of the players in that 20man has not killed the first boss, he will spawn again and everyone else will have to repeat the encounter.


Thank you for your reply. I have 2 follow-up questions regarding your last comment in your post which, out of curiosity, I would love to know.

I am going to use an example raid with 4 bosses for simplicity. Paralleling your example:
Player1 joins a fresh raid, kills the first boss. The raid falls apart so he joins an already in progress raid whom are on the 4th boss.

  • If the raid is already inside waiting for him to enter, will he be able to enter and start with them on the 4th boss? or will it stop him from entering until bosses 2 & 3 are killed?
  • And if it doesn't stop him from entering, would leaving the instance or soft resetting the instance spawn bosses 2 & 3?

  • Thanks in advance!
    Edited by Pinpoint on 13/06/2013 13:34 BST
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    90 Dwarf Hunter
    8680
    Taepsilum, can you pass on a hug/hugs to whoever came up with this? Because this feature is really gonna raise the morale and fun in this social raiding guild for a lot of our members! =D
    Edited by Denta on 13/06/2013 13:56 BST
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    90 Tauren Druid
    16875
    If everyone in the new 20man raid has already killed the first boss just like you did, then that boss will not spawn.
    But even if only 1 of the players in that 20man has not killed the first boss, he will spawn again and everyone else will have to repeat the encounter.


    Now wait a minute. This means you can never invite someone to your flex raid who has not killed as many bosses this lockout as the rest of the raid? That's a very bad idea.

    If a group of 10 kills say 10 bosses, then a tank leaves, everyone is stuck and cannot kill the last bosses unless they find a tank who has done exactly 10 bosses with a different raid. Otherwise they'd have to do all bosses again that the new tank has not killed yet.

    Seriously, you want to think about this a bit more. Won't work this way.
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    90 Tauren Druid
    11755


    Still, the option of removing tier tokens is worth at least considering as the benefits might outweigh the risks. We’ll share this with the devs, although I’m quite sure that they’ve considered it many times before, but since we’re talking about a new patch, everything is possible! ;)


    07/06/2013 16:12Posted by Taepsilum
    solution? LFR and Flex give no Tier set tokens (still give hand, leg armor etc, just not tier), give nothing towards legendary and give half the valor of normal. LFR gives 60 for 3 bosses, Flex gives the same. make them share a lockout.

    I agree that Tier tokens are very appealing to raiders of any level, and devs obviously know that too, I suppose it’s just a hard call to make, to be honest.
    Flexible Raids and LFR are meant to let players without enough free time to get into the commitment of having a guild raiding schedule to be able to experience a similar version of the end content, at a different difficulty level and with lesser rewards, of course.
    But tokens are very special items, because they can be considered as an intrinsic part of that same content that we want more people to experience, they often provide class specific bonuses that not only provide performance boosts but that also make playing those characters a bit more entertaining.

    Still, the option of removing tier tokens is worth at least considering as the benefits might outweigh the risks. We’ll share this with the devs, although I’m quite sure that they’ve considered it many times before, but since we’re talking about a new patch, everything is possible! ;)


    See, this worries me. As much as many of you seem pleased to hate someone like me, i enjoy the LFR. Time constraints mean that even Flex raiding won't suit me. So i enjoy running the LFR, and i enjoy the totality of my experience in that space, which includes getting a full tier set.

    All of that seems under threat now. GC has tweeted about potentially limiting the number of tier pieces, or bosses. He's called LFR a back up plan. Tapsilum thinks there are benefits to reducing the totality of a raid experience within the LFR space.

    I've no doubt that many of you will jump all over me, and tell me that if i can't raid i shouldn't play WoW. I agree, that's actually what i'll do. You'll see from my achievements that bar WOTLK, which had a low bar to raiding entry, when the quest content ran out, i cancelled the sub, and moved on. I came back for each expac to see the lore. Except in Mists, which has really catered for a more casual approach.

    The idea now that the totality of the raiding experience within the LFR sphere will be reduced (80% of the content for 100% of the sub amount) won't work with me. I doubt i am alone here. I like getting a full tier set. I like seeing the lore bosses. I think it would be horrible to see a LFR experience put together where we could never see the main bad guy of an expansion, or gather a tier set.

    These things are intrinsic to the raiding expereince. Now, as you go up the stack to heroic, there are things to consider of course, challenge, prestige, etc. But each sphere should have its own draws. Seeing the lore and building a tier set, and enjoying something a bit more complex than a dungeon are the main draws for the LFR. Removing them to please other tiers seems harsh.

    I'm really enjoying WoW right now. Its pretty sad that my enjoyment of the game in a way that makes sense for me is now such a bad thing. Its pretty sad to see that everything has become a zero sum game, and that blizzard seem to be encouraging it.
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    90 Dwarf Hunter
    0
    Hopefully it will enable PuG raids to flourish again as well. Something I've missed a bit in Mists of Pandaria so far.


    I would like to quote this as it sums up my hopes for this nicely.

    This feature will probably "revive" pugs somewhat, which was killed due to no one being in cities after MoP.

    Why? As "Hardcore" raiders will probably PuG it as they want the loot but will probably be busy raiding normal with their guild to bother doing flexible raiding in their guild. In addition "casual" raiders who were put of raiding before due to the massive difficulty jump from LFR > Normal before; may be interested in raiding as it acts as a smaller more PuG-able difficulty stepping stone.

    So I have high hopes to this, along with Virtual Realms we should see more guilds appear AND more PuG's going on. It seems my requests were answered, WoW could be saved from the sub losses from these alone if all goes well...

    Now just if we could get Blizz to make Raid Browser more noticeable and improved.
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    100 Night Elf Druid
    14310
    13/06/2013 12:37Posted by Taepsilum
    Will the lockout be similar to LFR where you can run it again (with only 1 chance per week for loot) or will it be like normal, where you can only kill a boss once per week?

    Right now, the idea is to have FR lockouts work very similarly to lockouts in LFR.
    You will be able to repeat bosses, and that will actually still be somewhat rewarding, you’ll be able to use additional bonus rolls, earn Valor Points, and potentially loot some shinnies from trash...

    There’s something unique about FRs though, I’ll explain it with an example:
    Let's say you join a 12man and kill the first boss, leave the raid, and join a 20man, you might have to repeat the first boss.

    "Might", so how does that work?
    If everyone in the new 20man raid has already killed the first boss just like you did, then that boss will not spawn.
    But even if only 1 of the players in that 20man has not killed the first boss, he will spawn again and everyone else will have to repeat the encounter.


    This whole comment worries me. If Flexi raids are only accessible through the queuing system what happens if someone shows up 20 minutes late after the first boss is already down? Are they able to join the raid in progress? Is the raid forced into a choice of re-queuing and so starting again from the beginning, or waiting till the first wing is completed before allowing the late member to join?

    Then there's the whole issue of the second raid night. Say you kill five bosses on the first night (clear wing one, 2/3 of wing two). Night 2 you have the same raid team except a couple of extra people show up that weren't there for the first night. Raid has the choice of take the two new people and start wing two again, or not take them and work on the new boss. You just gave the raid team a very strong reason to not take those extra people until they kill boss 6 and start the next wing. Are the newcomers even going to be able to go to wing two at all if they havn't completed wing one at all yet?

    There absolutely has to be a mechanism for people to join in-progress raids and for raids to be able to start from current progress position with new members otherwise you just defeated the half the reason flexi raids are being created.
    Edited by Willow on 14/06/2013 07:46 BST
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