Players might NEED an unreachable goal to play

(Locked)

100 Tauren Paladin
7870
AKA: There needs to be an incentive to step outside LFR.

This is something that I've been pondering about after the point was brought up by one of the lead designers over at Riot (the guys who made League of Legends) and simply put he mentioned that the reason people were so engaged with WoW previously was due to the fact that regardless of what they did there was always PvE or PvP content hovering above their heads, that if they stretched a little further they could reach. But now with features like LFR or the removal of PvP ranks people no longer feel that need to try and reach the 'unreachable' goal, as it's all laid out in front of them.

Before I elaborate my thoughts on this matter, let me get this out of the way; I do not think LFR needs to be removed, it is useful for people who lack the time to gear up and raid. That is not what this thread is about. M'kay? M'kay.

Personally I think he has a point, whilst I agree with the concept of LFR it's lead to two problems. First off, the casual player who just wants to "see the content" will be able to see it with little effort on his end. Say what you want about Normal or Heroic modes, but they're just that, modes. In terms of the bosses, mechanics, gear (By appearance I mean, I personally don't call a change in colour palette to be any different) and even the environment, there are no changes between all three modes. This means that someone who just wants to see the content gets to see it with incredible ease, then feeling like there's no more to see he unsubscribes until the next patch.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to just see the content however, I'm of the same mindset. And with such a mindset I can honestly say I've not set foot in a Normal or Heroic raid since the start of Mists, why bother when all the lore and the epic boss designs are right there in front of me in LFR? I remember when I first started raiding in Wrath, it was an -epic- feeling regardless of the difficulty of the raid. Just being somewhere where not everyone had been or could go made me -feel- like I was accomplishing something, that I was seeing truly 'epic' content.

In contrast, LFR has vastly diminished this by turning the wonderful environments and bosses into loot pinatas. Blizzard can say what they want on LFR not being about the gear, but at the end of the day so long as it's a step above dungeon gear that's what people will go for before engaging in Normals. I cannot think of a single raid guild that actually went straight from dungeons to Normal or Heroic raids once the relevant wings in LFR were opened up. Honestly LFR is easier than the dungeons (Bar one or two boss fights in each tier) but awards better loot by a notable margin. Why gimp yourself with dungeon gear when your entire guild can get the better but easier to obtain stuff whilst learning the boss mechanics and layout all in one swoop? LFR is a useful tool, and it was an amazing concept. But in practice, it's watered down the appeal of raiding and the 'epic' feeling I get when I step into raids, now they're just dungeons that are inflated to be the size of a raid to me. For people who have little time available to play, I understand that LFR is a godsend. But to everyone else it just serves as easy-to-get and powerful gear plus as an easy way to 'see' the content.

As a result, most people feel less inclined to spend time on their characters either attempting Normal and Heroic modes or gearing up for said modes. For the majority of players, there's no need anymore. As much as I dislike how classic was in reality a gigantic timesink (Time->Gear->Epic raids. And before anyone goes off about difficulty; it wasn't the raids that were hard, it was getting 40 people together, organised and geared and hoping to god they would all show up on one night. Time required=/=Difficulty) it did do one thing right, by dangling the carrot on a stick in front of players, they all had -something- to strive for. Even if they wouldn't ever see it (See Naxxramas, I think it was once said by a blue that only about 2% of guilds worldwide even saw Kel'thuzad.) it was -something- for them to strive to accomplish. Even back in Cataclysm I still felt that 'epic' feeling when stepping into a raid, it -meant- something to be there in the Firelands or the Twilight Bastion.

Personally I'm pondering the idea of abstaining from LFR in the future and relying purely on gear from dungeons and reputation vendors before stepping into Normals. For those who say "Don't do it then" that's exactly what I'm going to do (probably) but really you're not going to be able to convince the vast majority of players to do the same. Why should they when, as said before, the ability to 'see' the same content as Heroic raiders is available at their fingertips with minimal effort or input? (These players are -not- bad or wrong. They have every right to argue that they just want to see the same content, and that's the mindset of most players since even the earliest days in raiding.)

I can't remember the details, but in the Heroic mode of Twilight Bastion there was an extra boss at the end and the same with Firelands. That's something that I was thinking about, something that -can't- be seen in LFR and something that acts as a lure and a reason for players to bother putting time and effort into their characters. People see this stuff pop up on the forums or on youtube and go "Wow! I want to see that for myself!" and begin to spend time gearing up for Heroic modes to see this content. That phrase comes up a lot doesn't it? "See the content" is the key phrase for this entire discussion, this 'unseeable' content doesn't need to be locked down as harshly as the original Naxxramas or Molten Core, but at the same time it needs to be an incentive to get out of LFR and do Normal and/or Heroic modes.

To compare to an old game from my childhood, Spiderman 2: Enter Electro had a special difficulty called 'Kid mode' whereby bosses were much easier to defeat and there were much fewer puzzles and areas in the game were streamlined rather than wide open. This mode let you experience the game in it's essence but tease you to play the higher difficulties to see the rest of the content, it encouraged me to step out of my comfort zone and experience the bosses with their full set of puzzles and tactics instead of just mashing the punch button and winning and on top of that many unlockables such as extra super powers and costumes for Spider Man were only available in the higher difficulties. And I enjoyed that, greatly. I would not mind if LFR was removed, but it's something we're rather stuck with now due to the sheer number of people running it. But the above example is exactly how LFR should work, allowing you to explore the essence of raid contents and the majority of the story. But at the same time make it obvious that there's a reason to do the higher difficulties, you need to give people a reason to explore and develop as players. As is people do LFR then leave because that's all there really is to see.

As a WoW-related example, say you were running through a raid once in LFR and then once in Normal or Heroic. There's a fork in the path through the raid, but in LFR one path is blocked by rubble and the NPC accompanying you says "We lack the power to move this aside, let us try the other path. We may return here later with higher numbers, so that I may draw from your life energy and move the rubble." and so you do. But people begin to wonder 'What's behind that?' 'What did he mean by power?' They decide to shimmy into Normal mode to see if that's what he meant, lo and behold the NPC is able to move the rubble aside to reveal a "secret" wing of the raid complete with an extra boss or two and a unique set of environments. A bad example probably, but it hopefully shows you what I mean. People by all means can do LFR to their hearts content to experience the raid, but people want more to see, more to do. And if you hand it all over in LFR mode they'll have nothing left to do and unsubscribe until the next patch. But put a few nibbles of content behind a door in Normal or Heroic mode and suddenly you have people who want to 'see' that as well. They want to experience the game in it's entirety regardless of whether it's in certain modes or not. That's my mentality anyway.

As for PvP titles or ranks, it works in a similar way. There's little to 'see' and there's little to strive for besides gear and Arena rating. To most players these don't mean much, but the idea of 'ranks' instantly installs a goal in their minds. Say what you want about Call of Duty but the "ranking" (if it can even be called that) system is what lures people in, to keep playing multiplayer. They want shiny things, and shiny things they will get on a regular basis. Re-instating PvP ranks from classic would give people further reason to play for longer. Some form of rank decay may be useful, but not so that it was the original case of having to PvP nearly 24/7 just to stop your rank plummeting.

So yeah... that's it, my fingers hurt now from all this typing.
Any additional thoughts? Comments?
90 Human Rogue
13845
In contrast, LFR has vastly diminished this by turning the wonderful environments and bosses into loot pinatas


This. LFR is no longer "We want everyone to see content", it's dumb dolls giving you epics.
90 Draenei Priest
7195
Well written and exactly how i feel about the current state of wow. Yes casuals needs to be able to at least try raiding, but that does not mean killing Lei'Shen with a silent group of people.

Why can't blizz just let LFR stay out of the newest content. then let LFR be Toes and MSV only and after the next raid content patch let TOT become LFR.
86 Human Death Knight
7435
Yep +1
90 Worgen Warrior
19245
Logged in just to upvote this. Couldn't agree more.
This. Completely agree with you.

What I loved about raiding in TBC was the idea that there was so much more to see of the game if I put extra effort into it. I used to go into Sunwell Plateau when it was just released and use my Mind Vision to check out the environments, and the attunements made me feel like I was progressing to a certain climax, to something amazing. It was truly epic when guilds like Nihilum managed to get a world first because that meant you could watch a video of the fight, making you even more curious and excited. What also really saddens me is that all of the boss tactics are just written in the Dungeon Journal already nowadays, making the race for world first much less interesting to follow.

I re-subbed recently because of the release of the Isle of Thunder and the new battleground, but I think I'm going to stop my subscription until the next patch again. I have already seen all of the content again, and I have no real incentive to go and raid normals.
Edited by Miyaki on 09/06/2013 14:45 BST
90 Blood Elf Rogue
11565
+1 here,
My personal goal is to get my guilds raid team finished, currently need 2 more healers and we can then go into normal and get into heroic stuff, unfortunately my attitude is, LFR gear is better then heroic gear so im going to take it to give me a better advantage when we do manage to start clearing the raids
100 Tauren Paladin
7870
+1 here,
My personal goal is to get my guilds raid team finished, currently need 2 more healers and we can then go into normal and get into heroic stuff, unfortunately my attitude is, LFR gear is better then heroic gear so im going to take it to give me a better advantage when we do manage to start clearing the raids


And a quote from the cross post I put on the WoW reddit:
As I have no characters on the EU forums, I can't reply there, so I will reply here.
I made the same argument to GC on twitter. That people didn't feel the need to do normal modes since LFR took much less time to get into, no commitment of any kind, and absolutely no skill required.
There was a video I saw of a WoW blogger who took his level 90 greens banker rogue and got geared enough to do complete all of the LFR wings available in about three days or so. While he did this, he did no damage at all in heroics and through most of the raids. During the last raid he did start using only rupture to stay on the damage charts to see if anyone would notice. He also took special effort to stand in every fire, pool of crap, and get hit by every ability while not dying to put as much strain on healers as possible. Only got kicked one time, after putting someone on follow.
I've experienced this personally. Recruiting for my own raids, a lot of people who used to come and raid normals with us have ceased to do so entirely, only doing LFR now. Even people who I have recruited for my guild do only LFR and then are mysteriously nowhere to be found when raid time comes up. Recruiting for Normals via pugging has become an absolute nightmare, taking up to two hours to get a nearly full group without counting the revolving door of people joining and leaving 10 minutes later when things don't magically come together.
GC responded to me telling me that the people who do LFR were mostly people who never raided before Raid Finder came out, so he disagreed with my point. It may be true that a lot of the people who do it never raided before, but a lot of people are and it has shrunk the pool for Normals considerably.
I agree that LFR should probably not be taken out, but there aren't really any ways to fix it either. If you change the gear so it is the same as dungeon quality gear, then the higher geared players who are at least competent will stop doing LFR, and then all of the bads and incompetent people in there would not be able to be carried through. Though honestly, I think it would be interesting to see what happened if they did that. Would those people improve their gameplay? Or would they just unsub?


And as I said on the reddit, I would very much approve of LFR gear having their overall prowess vastly reduced to heroic dungeon level, perhaps just a smidge above but no more. That would also include removing tier gear, as tier sets are part of the 'seeing' content value in my opinion, and just recolouring it a third time doesn't make it any more appealing to get it all again on a higher difficulty.

Well written and exactly how i feel about the current state of wow. Yes casuals needs to be able to at least try raiding, but that does not mean killing Lei'Shen with a silent group of people.

Why can't blizz just let LFR stay out of the newest content. then let LFR be Toes and MSV only and after the next raid content patch let TOT become LFR.


That may be why the LFR release of raids is staggered, but even then it takes only a month or two until it's all unlocked and afterwhich the incentive to do normals is gone for people like me. Heck I even actually didn't bother gearing up properly for the new raids in Mists because I KNEW the LFR version would come out sooner or later and offer the same content but easier to obtain and access.

The thing is now though, I would not mind at all if LFR was removed or even the LFD tool. Dungeons themselves are so much more accessible and varied than ever before, in classic you had maybe two dungeons that you had to farm all day every day to get into raiding. Now you have a much wider choice and the dungeons can actually be navigated with ease instead of being a gigantic maze. The game would still be accessible and an incentive to play would last much longer, but as these tools are now so ingrained within WoW's playerbase it's very unlikely they'll ever be removed. Granted, finding a group for dungeons used to take ages before plus the time you spent getting a group would be for naught if one of you was a ninja or half the group had to drop for whatever reason.
Edited by Ranor on 09/06/2013 15:11 BST
100 Troll Shaman
19960
Couldn't agree more, I hope blizz would go back to this style. Having something unreachable makes people want to play more to reach that goal.
Yep, all the +1s.

I truly miss that feeling of being one of the few people in the game to have seen Arthas' throne room or Yogg's prison, etc. Like you say just *being* there put was an epic feeling.

The quality of normal/heroic raiding right now is pretty amazing, but Lei Shen on normal didn't feel that special. Everyones killed him anyway. You're not part of a semi-elite club that was fighting him.

In all honesty, I can't see anyone downvoting this thread. I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that LFR lessens the enjoyment of "real" raiding, but unfortunately it's not going anywhere. Though I like your idea of gating certain parts of LFR. Tbh, you could just make final bosses un-killable in LFR. If you couldn't progress past Twin Consorts in LFR that would go someway to achieving what you mention in your first thread.

Or, and I think this was a huge mistake on Blizzards part this expansion, remove the legendary progression from LFR. Super-casuals are catered to enough these days, but in my opinion legendary stuff has no place in LFR whatsoever. The very thought that you can get legendary gem, meta and cape from doing LFR weekly (which requires almost no work/skill) stings a bit.
90 Night Elf Druid
2155
I'm all for it as long as it doesn't reward with OP armour or weapons.

A special mount for doing it maybe but over-gearing some who can spend all day playing makes the game unbalanced and makes it unfair on those who can't devote their entire life to the game.

If it does reward with gear or weapons, keep the ilvl the same and make it a visual enhancement rather than an ilvl enhancement. Others can then see you've done that content but it doesn't make the players who have done it any more OP in PVP or such.

Super-casuals are catered to enough these days, but in my opinion legendary stuff has no place in LFR whatsoever. The very thought that you can get legendary gem, meta and cape from doing LFR weekly (which requires almost no work/skill) stings a bit.

Not all of us can play 24/7, some of us actually have a life but we would still like to gear up so we can take part in proper raids etc where we are often refused by other players because we are under-geared. It works both ways.
Edited by Nyxana on 09/06/2013 17:15 BST
3 Gnome Rogue
0
they DID delay lfr comparing with normal/hc.

and epics ARE delayed too. you get less items in lfr.

why don't go whine about being able to do old raids solo which required hardcore group when they were released? same thing basically.
90 Blood Elf Warrior
8940
wow, there you go, you said it... Very well written.

I've been pondering how to explain it like you do, because I have the exact same "issues" with todays wow.

I've recently resubsribed after a few years of break, and this whole new "easy" mode thing really struck me.

It took me like 1-2 days to reach lvl 90 and from there 2 weeks to get exalted with easier factions, now, after a month, im now ilvl 504, exalted with all, only need august celestials and shadopan. I don't need anything from LFR anymore really and my guild doesn't always have a spot for me in the raid, so that leaves me with very little to do, outside of the few hours a week where I actually get's to raid.

As casuals should get to be able to see the content and raid in a fairly simple way, I think the more demanding players, should have more options to work on something that actually takes time and effort. The brawlers guild is a very good and interesting feature, but we need way more "competition" like old days arena and first server boss kills etc.
90 Undead Warlock
10035
I agree +1
100 Tauren Paladin
7870
I'm all for it as long as it doesn't reward with OP armour or weapons.

A special mount for doing it maybe but over-gearing some who can spend all day playing makes the game unbalanced and makes it unfair on those who can't devote their entire life to the game.

If it does reward with gear or weapons, keep the ilvl the same and make it a visual enhancement rather than an ilvl enhancement. Others can then see you've done that content but it doesn't make the players who have done it any more OP in PVP or such.

Super-casuals are catered to enough these days, but in my opinion legendary stuff has no place in LFR whatsoever. The very thought that you can get legendary gem, meta and cape from doing LFR weekly (which requires almost no work/skill) stings a bit.

Not all of us can play 24/7, some of us actually have a life but we would still like to gear up so we can take part in proper raids etc where we are often refused by other players because we are under-geared. It works both ways.


You don't need top notch gear though, the 5.0 raids were tuned to be done with the 463 heroic gear (or around that) but everyone went to LFR first because it granted better gear than dungeons. As said before, LFR gear ought to just be a smidge above dungeon gear to make that an incentive but not a massive load off your back when you enter normals after gearing up in LFR, which is not what it's meant for.

EDIT: On the topic of legendaries, I also agree VERY heavily. Legendaries are supposed to be very rare and powerful items that only a few people can get by the utmost of effort. I honestly find the idea that legendaries can be gained through LFR mindboggling. Don't get me wrong there's nothing wrong with accessibility but deliberately giving EVERYONE the ability to get one with minimal effort undermines what a legendary is. Yes it's powerful but it's supposed to be the case that so few people have them that it doesn't really matter, and as with the epic gear it isn't -needed- at all. Ever. LFR gear might give a hand with normals and heroics but a freakin' legendary (of the relevant level) makes every difficulty mode significantly easier if used.

With the ilevel of LFR gear lowered to be near dungeon level instead of dead in the middle of dungeons and normals people will become more likely to let in someone with just dungeon gear/has less time to gear up as a result. It would be a step in the right direction at least.

Then again, the majority of the WoW community has always been warped around having the best gear possible even when it's not needed. Remember in Wrath with all the hubbub over gearscore? Thankfully it's died down now but back then you had people asking to do runs of older raids with absurdly high gearscores as a requirement to the group. but this was often resolved by joining a relatively large guild that actually had some braincells between them.
Edited by Ranor on 09/06/2013 17:35 BST
2 Gnome Warlock
0
You know why people don't want to try for an unreachable goal? Blizzard keep patching nerfing and making more xpacs at an ever increasing rate to keep people playing. Why spend 3 months raiding with your Guild for worthless gear. The longevity has gone in the game. The attitude of many is wait until next xpac and we will faceroll that raid boss which we can't do now.

It annoys me there are too many rare pets and mounts now, they are not unreachable just too time consuming to get., next xpac another 100 I bet.
90 Night Elf Druid
17425
The attitude of many is wait until next xpac and we will faceroll that raid boss which we can't do now.


Exactly, why bother now when you can come later and roflstomp it?

That's great observation and one of the reasons why so many of us don't bother with raiding and are happy with LFR because we can see the fights.

So I agree completely with you on that matter.
100 Human Priest
8830
Yeah i saw the link to that chat with Morello (the Riot guy) too.

In case anyone's interested in reading (because they didn't see it on GC's twitter or whatever) the guy posted that screenshot here: http://i.imgur.com/2tSkfWX.png

Interestingly, Morello mentions that he thinks his design philosophy is quite different to Blizzard's, though GC tweeted that he agreed with a lot of what had been written. Maybe Blizz are actually more open to changing their minds or moving the game in a different direction than many people might give them credit for.
100 Tauren Paladin
7870
You know why people don't want to try for an unreachable goal? Blizzard keep patching nerfing and making more xpacs at an ever increasing rate to keep people playing. Why spend 3 months raiding with your Guild for worthless gear. The longevity has gone in the game. The attitude of many is wait until next xpac and we will faceroll that raid boss which we can't do now.

It annoys me there are too many rare pets and mounts now, they are not unreachable just too time consuming to get., next xpac another 100 I bet.


You speak the truth, it reminds me of the fiasco with the original cataclysm heroic dungeons, they were difficult but certainly doable and just required some patience. But people were stuck in the wrath mentality whereby Blizzard had drastically reduced the difficulty of dungeons. Bearing in mind Wrath brought in a significant number of players, this meant that the majority of the playerbase was now used to things being easy and complained when it was too hard. Blizzard dug their own hole here and dug too deep, and now they can't get out easily. Their solution it seems is to keep digging deeper until they hit a tunnel or something, but now content is drying up quicker than they can produce it because of how easy it is to access content.
100 Tauren Paladin
7870
Yeah i saw the link to that chat with Morello (the Riot guy) too.

In case anyone's interested in reading (because they didn't see it on GC's twitter or whatever) the guy posted that screenshot here: http://i.imgur.com/2tSkfWX.png

Interestingly, Morello mentions that he thinks his design philosophy is quite different to Blizzard's, though GC tweeted that he agreed with a lot of what had been written. Maybe Blizz are actually more open to changing their minds or moving the game in a different direction than many people might give them credit for.


Very true, a lot of people like to assume Blizzard is unmovable in their objectives with the game and that they will never change their minds or remove features. One faction per PvP realm? That got changed. The masses of dailies? They admitted that needs looking at again.

Blizzard is still just a big group of humans, they can make mistakes and change minds just like everyone else.
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