Edited by Tennentz on 26/07/13 02:24 (BST)
Looks like the proving grounds have been re-tuned, judging from my very brief stint this morning. Gold mode for a healer (on holy priest) feels considerably tougher e.g. more AE damage in early waves. Where before it was a non-issue to get to wave 9 or 10 (where only the double conqueror mobs might trip you up, by flattening your tank), it's quite easy to struggle for mana around wave 5 now.
Well thank God it wasn't just me. I just spent around 2 hours trying the healing (gold) proving grounds again and the highest wave I got to was 7.
On my first attempt at this when it was released I done it on a monk, this time I tried a shammy thinking I'd do better than wave 9 gold. Much better healing, better regen etc and I still couldn't manage, the killer for me was always wave 5. I don't know if anyone's noticed but the NPC's don't seem to be interrupting as much as they should. Getting back to back pyros and the AoE.
By the end of wave 5 there's still mobs up, I'm almost OOM and have used almost all CD's then 6 comes and it's either GG lucky and onto 7 or insta-wipe.
I wouldn't consider myself on par with the likes of heroic raiders, but I'd say I've had enough experience healing (from Wrath) to see that 5 onwards is overtuned right now.
I tried several tactics, if I use riptides and healing waves on the raid I don't OOM but the damage is too high and eventually everyone dies from AoE and bleeds. If I use greater healing waves/surges I go OOM, at least twice on wave 6 I couldn't even bring the party up in health spamming surges with ascendance up.
It'd be nice if the dps would interrupt more, stun etc. Even using wind shear and capacitor on CD wasn't enough to keep the AoE from going off. Also would you mind making the cast a bit longer, sometimes I was interrupting and the spell somehow still went off.
DPS using defensives wouldn't hurt either, pyro goes onto hunter, get it to detterence, rogue, cloak. Mage, block etc.
Also, it'd be awesome if the dps had enough damage to down each wave before the next one spawns, the waves shouldn't stack, at least not till endless mode 10+.
I also popped back on the monk after I tried so many times on the shammy and I barely got past wave 3 this time before I went OOM.
Bronze and Silver were faceroll, Gold is VERY difficult past wave 5. I hope that this doesn't go to live like that or there's gonna be a lot of people not able to heal in groups when they don't have the gold achievement and get refused by people who have never tried it themselves.
So far it seems as though the only way of leaving the Proving Ground is with the use of Hearthstone or some other teleport/summon.
Since I was stuck at the Proving Ground, because my HS was on CD, I used the "Teleport to graveyard"-thingy. And was magically teleported to a Spirit Healer in Westfall.
And then the trials:
For some reason the bronze trial as healer, is harder than the silver trial. And the last wave in each trial was too short on time, so it the timer got down to 1 second, 10 seconds before the trial was done.
Aaaand I died at the 5th wave of the gold trial 3 out of 3 times.
In addition, the CD of Heart of the Wild, doesn't seem to reset upon starting a trial.
Edited by Haubeizang on 26/07/13 08:26 (BST)
More suggestions about the music during the Proving Grounds.
As I said the music of
should be used. If I look at the music itself (Way Of The Monk) the 0:00-1:02 is the intro. The music is in 4/4 measure system. The fragment 1:15-1:29 (4 measures, 14 seconds) is the climax and the main part 1:29-1:41 (4 measures, 13 seconds). I asume 71 BPM (Beats Per Minutes), that is Largo or Larghetto (according to the Italian music terminology). It takes about 13.5 seconds to play 16 quarter notes.
If you enter the Proving Grounds and the trial hasn't be started the intro (0:00-1:12) is played. As you start the trial but there is a preparing timer, the part 1:15-1:29 is played (but the last measure is completed first). If the timer expires and the first wave comes, the main theme 1:29-1:41 is played and repeated until you failed completing or successfully completed the Proving Ground. The music goes to the part 0:00-1:12.
It is a very detailed way to describe interacting music by means of Youtube-music.
Yah I still struggle to get past wave 5 gold on the healing priest. The NPCs literally bleed away while I channel divine hymn. At the end of wave 5 I am OOM, no two ways about it (having to spam glyph'ed binding heal to keep them up during wave 5).
Hmm, I think those early 'easy' posts have prompted the devs to make healing Gold a lot tougher. I was struggling on wave 10 a couple of days ago and now I'm back struggling on
wave 5. Didn't notice the npcs chattering as much.
I have been having a lot of fun and honing my reactions on my new spec (journeyman holy priest migrating to disc), so I have to say it's a great feature overall, and quite addictive.
There is a big emphasis on mana conservation, which reminds me more of healing in Molten Core than current content ( went to look for Heal Rank 4 but it's not there any more ... ). Maybe there should be more mana available, and more of a need to use abilities quickly, rather than sitting around trying not to cast at times to save mana?
The easiest of these is way tougher than anything you are likely to encounter in a Heroic run these days - maybe heroic scenarios are about level with the bronze ? Not really the same play style as raids, though, so I wouldn't try to make a comparison there.
Following a fail it would be nice to get a recap (level, time reached), currently that info disappears instantly.
Tried gold as a disc.
Wave 5 is absolutely insane!
The NPCs almost never interrupt the hive singer and are never close enough to each other that I could use PW:barrier effectively.
I save ALL my CDs just for wave 5 and I barely make it through - after that I'm oom, out of CDs, the group is low and gets raped by wave 6 which spawns when half of wave 5 is still up.
I (as a priest) can't interrupt nor CC the hive singers in any way. Why the heck are those mobs immune to fear?
-NPCs don't interrupt dangerous spells (it's cool if you intend the healer to interrupt/cc - but sadly priests can't do that. I don't think "reroll shaman" is the only lesson proving grounds should teach you)
-DPS constantly pull aggro (if this where a real group I would have kicked them for that alone)
-DPS don't do enough damage to kill the wave before the next one spawns (srsly, the rogue does less damage than the tank - plz kick that noob^^)
-the challenge shouldn't be lost when a DPS dies. (In real groups you sometimes have to let a dps die to save the tank, especially when the DPS did something stupid. I think ending the challenge when a dps dies carries the wrong message to new healers)
I think the overall damage is fine if you manage to fix the AI.
WE CAN'T HEAL STUPID - give those NPCs some brainz!
Edited by Drjinx on 27/07/13 17:34 (BST)
NPC's in the 5th wave (Gold Healer) are acting like a bunch of idiots standing in everything that's possible and not interrupting any spells. Dmg is just ridiculous.
Assuming Proving Grounds should prepare players for healing morons, this should definitely do the work.
In addition, getting aggro constantly and being nuked by all tunnelers at once.
Edited by Лолкэт on 27/07/13 17:40 (BST)
Just done gold on a premade shammy.
Wave 5 is total madness. But on a shammy I got interrupt for singers and grounding for pyros. RNG with pyros hitting NPC with bleed debuff or 2 pyros in a row on the same NPC is the thing that can fail you. So yes, NPC should be smarter.
Cant do it on my copied druid, my main I healed on for the end of Cata and MoP. Still trying )
With a bit of luck done on resto druid.
I would say that there is too much RNG with pyros. Mage on half HP, you heal the tank, second pyro hits the mage, start over. Hunter disengaging from fire and running into it right away because he is out of range is funny.
Druid feels like he lacks both CC and cooldowns comparing to shaman. AoE stun works even on large mobs, disorienting roar does not, roots and cyclone are hardly usable.
Edited by Niterage on 29/07/13 13:27 (BST)
As a Frostmage things are managable at bronze and silver, but at gold it's a whole different story. I thought I was having a bad day but seeing my dmg-meter not even tipping 60k DPS I started to wonder what was happening.
Looked at my char-tab and saw all stats where cut in half o0 ... Haste gone, Frost sucks big time. I also don't see my trinkets/meta procs. Why the hell did I do all that hard work to get them then?!
Went into Fire-spec and the same problem arises, too low on crit to get some decent damage going.
No wonder that I can't beat a timer if my stats are noobish.
The thing that Proving Grounds proves to me is that it proves that gear matters, nothing else. But we knew that allready, so, yeah...
Think before you act pl0x, the idea behind Proving Grounds is great. The implementation (with this downscaling of stats that realy make a diff) is as useless as putting a fresh dinged 90 in your ToT raid and expect he will do great... because he won't.
*edit: if it is ment for newer players to get a hang of a certain spec then that's cool, but explain to them and show them that stats matter to get things done at higher levels of difficulty (and show them wich stats for a certain spec). Don't let them swim on dry land with gear that is not suited for the difficulty-raise they are put up with and wonder what they are doing wrong.
Up the gear level when doing harder trials and show what has changed and people will get that "O, I got it!" moment and will want to improve.
The reforger guy is there for a reason, show that reason ;)
Edited by Eríon on 29/07/13 19:11 (BST)
tried Gold as Healer over 50 times.
first 20 wipes in wave 5 = insane incoming dmg and the grp go on wrong targets and make not enough dmg.
after trying diffrent talent, the grp survive wave 5-8. But the dmg is low so next waves come and enemys from last wave are still alive.
wipe over 15 times in wave 10. In Wave 9 the hugh meele enemy are on 50% hp when wave 10 spawn. So the grp fight vs 2 big Meele Adds and both Enrage on the exact same time. The Healer has 0% Mana. It is Impossible atm.
Did the tank challenge a few days ago. Died once on wave 10 of gold and was able to complete it on the next try.
Bronze seemed to be a good introduction for someone who wants to start tanking. Silver seemed appropriate for someone who as been tanking for a bit. Gold got pretty tough at the end and is basically on the level of heroic raiding. Probably a bit too difficult for what you are trying to achieve.
Edited by Gráinne on 30/07/13 10:41 (BST)
I'm going to differ with Niterage here. I've put about 2-3 hours into Proving Grounds so far, faffing about with different classes and specs, but mostly on Frost Mage. Frost Mage works fine at 463.
This is the first time I've ever used the PTR, and I downloaded it just for this. I feel like a kid in a candy shop.
I think Proving Grounds is great!
I've tried it, deliberately, with classes I didn't know, and failed dismally to get Bronze. Excellent! As it should be!
Tank, I blew through Bronze. Haven't done more yet.
Healer - I've never healed - failed Bronze. Excellent!
Feral Druid - I started one, so have a general idea - unreforged in the provided 463s got halfway through Bronze, and I can see myself going back to learn more.
On Frost mage, I went in deliberately without reforging or enchanting or food or flask buffs, knowing I had downscaled stats, just to see how far I'd get. I still blew through Bronze, and wiped somewhere late in Silver. So I reforge - Hit is a bear at that ilevel, and Fire spec makes it even worse - and plop some enchants on, and go again. I think I had another wipe or two in Silver as I learned the positions, but Silver wasn't a problem.
Gold is just pure fun. (Insert many exclamation marks here.)
Incidentally, WTB Wave 7 Gold Ranged on no timer, with them doing damage (but give me some heals) and respawns of the mobs so that at least 3 are always alive. I haven't learned Wave 7 yet, but I will. :)
More to the point, I've learned things about my play while doing it. When in Frost, I'm too inclined to "play with my food" - kite things around and kill them slowly instead of tearing their face off, which is what I should be going for when there's a tank present. I haven't been using my CDs enough; I always want to "save" them for an emergency that never comes. I move too much. I've played around with my keybinds to make them better. Like that. I'm still learning, and I'll be applying what I've learned on Live.
I have some sympathy with people pointing out that other class/specs, like Fire or Balance, may have more problems with scaling.
I note you now have the trainer telling you when time is up instead of tactics for the next fight when you wipe. Good. That's something I was going to suggest.
If balls and banshees would stop when you've killed everything, I'd take it as a kindness. I find them mildly annoying rather than threatening.
For truly new players, it would be great if the trainer, or perhaps the reforger, would do an audit of your gear, and suggest the general direction you need to go. It doesn't have to be full AskMrRobot mode; just remind them that gear scaling is in effect, and especially Hit chance.
I hope this feature becomes popular so you will expand it and add more variations.
Retested gold healer on both Priest and restro druid
Round 5 is a killer here damage output of the npcs seems low still, on all attempts i just felt underpowered and struggling to keep up with the damage and healing output. On the attempts i did get past this stage i was playing catchup and was overwhelmed and out of mana by round 7
Round 5 again was a task but not as much as disc. managed to get through this round using all cooldowns and some rng. Mana felt better than as disc but again playing some serious catch up in rounds 6 and 7 .
Round 5 again felt harsh but easier than on the priest, again get though round 5 using all cooldowns but mana felt less of an issue and i didn't find myself playing catchup as much going into the later rounds.
Would be helpful if Tw was cast in round 5 as its the hardest of the rounds, If this was a full player group this is what i feel would be done here to burst through this round , this would feel like a more sound strategy for this round and would ease off on the healers somewhat.
The dot applied by the tunnelers seems not to drop off every time if healed up to 100% seems to stay applied until the health drops back down to 90 or thereabouts,
The npc's still feel stupid in there actions , would be nice to see them being more intelligent in there action , the rouge using smokebomb to reduce damage , the hunter mis-directing the stray adds to the tank , dps using damage reduction cd's when getting focused by an add especially if they have a debuff. It still atm feels like grouping with the poorest examples of the class being represented.
Edited by Eríon on 30/07/13 17:45 (BST)
retested today after new Ptr build the Healer Gold challenge
and it is much easier than last days.
finished the challenge on gold first try without big problems.
And endless 3 trys same result wave 11 without any mana.
gold challenge is fine, but endless is little bit to easy and there is only one problem the Mana runs out.
A manareg buff after 5 waves (restore 25% Mana) and harder NPC will be better for Endless Mod.
Edited by Wildleaf on 30/07/13 20:51 (BST)
I'm not sure if this has been said but it would be nice the score and wave number would stay for a little while after defeat (endless mode) in order to see how long you managed to come. As a healer I concentrate on many other things and rarely even see which wave number I failed on.
Wave 7+ on gold dps feels a bit silly with cc having a cd n all. You require a cc on wave 6, but won't have it for wave 7 where you kite a ball while killing a monkey/nuking down a ghost and interrupting a heal.
The ghost should at least have its detonate reset upon being frozen.
Edited by Veios on 01/08/13 21:30 (BST)
Gold mode seems fine for holy priest at the moment. When things go well I can actually end up with near to 100% mana at the end of wave 10. I haven't tried it as disc in the past few days but wave 5-6 was certainly very intense.
The problem above wave 10 seems to become the RNG of the pyroblasts with the increased damage output of the mobs. If one person gets randomly pyro'd twice in a row, they will die and this leaves the only option to spam expensive heals. I currently seem to be getting stuck around wave 14+ when balancing mana with the required output just becomes too much. I can only imagine that the damage in waves 20+ will be far too bursty and full of RNG to heal through.
I do feel the dot applied by the tunnelers would be better balanced if it was removed by healing the target to 80% rather than 90%. It can be particularly annoying in it's current state, especially when it goes out on multiple party members.
Another thing I have noticed is that you are able to place lightwell prior to starting and then have all your CDs (including lightwell) reset once you start. Should probably force any existing lightwells to despawn when starting as this doesn't feel particularly fair!
Whilst, in it's current state, the proving grounds do seem fun it does lack a bit of depth. The arena layout seems a bit flat; it would be far more fun for the group to walk around a mock instance layout although understandable from a development point of view why this has not been done.
It'd also love the ability to utilise CC throughout (most of them are immune to fear). I notice the casts can be interrupted with arcane torrent, shamans and monks may have a slight advantage here with windshear/spear hand strike.
The "You're doing it wrong" achievement seems to be bugged as well. I completed the silver healing one as shadow spec and didn't get the achievement.