PvP gear vs. PvE gear

90 Night Elf Warrior
10445
Why not just make it all the same and balance around one taken set of gear everyone can get rather than absud amount of resilience / tier-procs / trinkets that more often than not end up making or breaking the game? Currently on the PTR PvE trinkets are absurdly overpowered and I don't think that there's a slightest way to balance that with the current way of things.

I'd also ask why -do- heroic raids give practical gear if that's supposed to be cutting edge / challenge content (aka challenge modes), having it award players with unique xmog would make for an easier time balancing than an item level cap which really doesn't solve enough.

Also make gear gaps smaller. 458 -> 476 -> 496, it's too freaking much! There's a bit of a difference between being excited for upgrades and NEEDING THEM to as much as stay competitive. It's bad design, is all.

The purpose of my thread is this - what if Resilience & PvP power were to go, with PvP gear having same stats / procs and set bonuses as PvE except with a unique, more faction-specific design, with most of the PvP stuff made baseline? (Like human racial and resilience)
Edited by Silvaria on 18/07/2013 14:52 BST
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85 Tauren Death Knight
6695
Not entirely sure what it is you are trying to get at here.

But basically you want PvP'ers and PvE'ers in the same gear?
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90 Draenei Death Knight
5455
I remember in earlier mmo's you could get gear from dungeons, then use that gear to kill people with. Overwise it's just getting gear to get better gear...
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90 Human Warlock
11855
The purpose of my thread is this - what if Resilience & PvP power were to go, with PvP gear having same stats / procs and set bonuses as PvE except with a unique, more faction-specific design, with most of the PvP stuff made baseline? (Like human racial and resilience)

the problem is that pvp gear is easier to obtain than pve gear and everyone would be forced to do the part they dislike for more gear.

I'd also ask why -do- heroic raids give practical gear if that's supposed to be cutting edge / challenge content (aka challenge modes), having it award players with unique xmog would make for an easier time balancing than an item level cap which really doesn't solve enough.

Because character progression is fun
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90 Night Elf Warrior
10445
But basically you want PvP'ers and PvE'ers in the same gear?


Yep.

Basically get tier pieces / offpieces with honor that look different, perhaps with a SLIGHT shift in stats for the sake of survival (stamina) that will put raid gear SLIGHTLY above PvP in actual PvE.

the problem is that pvp gear is easier to obtain than pve gear and everyone would be forced to do the part they dislike for more gear.


Why does this always work for raiders having to PvP but not for PvPers having to raid ;| It sorta already is the case and will get even worse when next season tyrannical 496 (or w/e they make it) gear will become honor stuff. Who'd ever -want- to run 463 dungeons any more?
Edited by Silvaria on 18/07/2013 15:07 BST
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85 Tauren Death Knight
6695
Why does this always work for raiders having to PvP but not for PvPers having to raid ;| It sorta already is the case and will get even worse when next season tyrannical 496 (or w/e they make it) gear will become honor stuff. Who'd ever -want- to run 463 dungeons any more?


Blizz have messed up in MoP so bad.

Currently LFR gear is better than honor gear for PvP. in 5.4 as you said crafted pvp gear (malv) can just be bought to skip heroics and go into LFR. Or just do some pvp and buy the tyrann.

I really dont think they care anymore.
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90 Human Warlock
11855
I really dont think they care anymore.

How people catch up shouldn't be what blizzard cares about.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
10445
18/07/2013 15:17Posted by Instalock
I really dont think they care anymore.

How people catch up shouldn't be what blizzard cares about.


Ehm, yes it should? Part of the reason why the game's not as fun as it could be is because they overfocus on endgame, making leveling / gearing before it irrelevant and feeling like a drag. It shouldn't be called 'catch up' to begin with, it should be equally awesome part of the game, else why have it in the first place beyond "Oh we worked hard on that some time, now it's bad but LOVE IT, LOVE IT DAMN YOU >:(".
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90 Dwarf Paladin
11740
they need to remove resilience from pve players-its just unfair. And no matter what they say pve gear is better than pvp gear.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
10445
they need to remove resilience from pve players-its just unfair. And no matter what they say pve gear is better than pvp gear.


Disagreed with the first, resilience was/is a band-aid mechanic that's not fun for anyone.

The second is precisely the problem my suggestion would fix - if PvPers could get the same gear as raiders, it would solve an awful lot of gearing / balance issues.
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Community
The problem with that approach is that whenever there is an alternative way to get the same or similar gear, players will generally always choose the easiest/fastest route, even if that goes against their own personal enjoyment of the game; obviously that is something we would like to avoid and should be able to avoid with good design.

If you’re a serious raider and you dislike doing PvP, you’ll probably feel left behind if the rest of your guildmates go into arena to complement their PvE gear, and vice versa in case you’re into PvP and dislike PvE.

I think these two groups are different enough to warrant a gear distinction, I believe that is good design. Can the current system be improved? Certainly, there are many things that are far from ideal, we’ve tried quite a lot of new ideas for PvP in MoP, some of those ideas were quite radical and we know that there’s always some risk attached to anything that’s drastically different and new. We made some mistakes, and we learned a lot from them, we’ve reverted some changes and we’ve tried a few new approaches and as time goes on the system will keep on maturing.

It’s also important to remember that new expansions will always give us much more leeway when it comes to design shifts. It’s very important to keep a certain level of consistency during the course of an expansion, even when you have a great new idea, if that idea is too radical, sometimes it will be better to wait for a new expansion before deploying it in order to avoid alienating and confusing the players.
There are certainly some things that we would do differently if MoP were to launch today. But frankly, I think MoP had (and will have) some of the most drastic changes I’ve seen during the course of any expansion, and 5.4 is really really packed!
I must say I’m quite excited and curious to see how 5.4 will play out on live and see how players will take some of the new features.
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simple fixes like even ilevel balance?
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Community
18/07/2013 16:17Posted by Phalhunt
simple fixes like even ilevel balance?

Fixing ilvls is super simple, fixing everything that depends on those ilvls however is not. That’s where the complexity begins, the whole game is like an intrinsic vast web of connections, every change that you apply will send out a wave of repercussions that we have to “fix” somehow. Some of these will be easy, others hard, and some we won’t even be expecting.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
10445
simple fixes like even ilevel balance?

Fixing ilvls is super simple, fixing everything that depends on those ilvls however is not. That’s where the complexity begins, the whole game is like an intrinsic vast web of connections, every change that you apply will send out a wave of repercussions that we have to “fix” somehow. Some of these will be easy, others hard, and some we won’t even be expecting.


Cata had PvP gear with higher item level and you still didn't see everyone being mad about going after it, even before LFR; So what gives? Was that system a bad thing in letting PvPers compete 'till dragon soul / LFR added trinkets / weapons which were superior in every way? You do have a point but when there's things as bonkers as legendary capes and trinkets that reduce major cooldowns by 30-something %, how is PvP supposed to compete with that when PvP power on our trinkets barely adds up to 3-4% (not to even mention vastly larger stat proc)? ;x

If anything, we too want in on the goodies! You could tie their acquisition to some personal PvP achievements as to gate them from raiders but beyond that even the new 2600 resi bonus (which is, by the way, 2-3% reduction at best) on PvP trinkets is MASSIVELY underpowered when you put it against the new pve procs.

The issue you underlined goes both ways in that why would you as a PvPer want the pvp power trinket when the PvE one (even LFR) gives you more of everything?

Also what's up with the forums taking forever to load today?
Edited by Silvaria on 18/07/2013 18:34 BST
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90 Human Rogue
11960
the problem is the blizzard workers who make new content/items dont do pvp. thats why they dont see the repercussion.

blizzard do you really dont see how stupidly OP are going to be those new trinkets and legendary cloack in pvp? even a 8 years old kid could see it.

(now is when you say that is just a PTR, things are changing everyday-> nothing is changed and patch goes live -> 2 months later when arenas are messed then you try to fix those pve items in arenas and you say "sorry we didnt know that it would be so unbalanced" -> 5.5 is released in ptr = repeat)
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85 Tauren Death Knight
6695
blizzard do you really dont see how stupidly OP are going to be those new trinkets and legendary cloack in pvp? even a 8 years old kid could see it.


One of the devs tweeted that they would change the new trinkets for PvP.
They also said the legendary cloaks won't procc in PvP.
Do a little research.

Also what's up with the forums taking forever to load today?


So it's not just me :)
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Community
18/07/2013 18:07Posted by
One of the devs tweeted that they would change the new trinkets for PvP.
Yes, we will nerf all new 5.4 PvE trinkets and also disable PvE set bonuses for PvP.

We do understand and share your concerns about PvE trinkets being too good in PvP, they’re a very particular type of item, and are supposed to be very powerful in PvE. That concept is basically the root of all these issues, but we like that they are this powerful as it makes them particularly exciting and coveted items for PvE.
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19/07/2013 09:49Posted by Taepsilum
One of the devs tweeted that they would change the new trinkets for PvP.
Yes, we will nerf all new 5.4 PvE trinkets and also disable PvE set bonuses for PvP.

We do understand and share your concerns about PvE trinkets being too good in PvP, they’re a very particular type of item, and are supposed to be very powerful in PvE. That concept is basically the root of all these issues, but we like that they are this powerful as it makes them particularly exciting and coveted items for PvE.


do you appreciate that us PVE'rs (and we are the vast majority) get a bit feed up with the constant nurf's for the sake of balancing PVP
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MVP
90 Human Paladin
0
19/07/2013 09:49Posted by Taepsilum
One of the devs tweeted that they would change the new trinkets for PvP.
Yes, we will nerf all new 5.4 PvE trinkets and also disable PvE set bonuses for PvP.

We do understand and share your concerns about PvE trinkets being too good in PvP, they’re a very particular type of item, and are supposed to be very powerful in PvE. That concept is basically the root of all these issues, but we like that they are this powerful as it makes them particularly exciting and coveted items for PvE.

This is great news, Taepsilum!

do you appreciate that us PVE'rs (and we are the vast majority) get a bit feed up with the constant nurf's for the sake of balancing PVP

It is the other way around as well though.

An often suggested idea is to make two sets of abilities or change how they work upon entering an instanced PvP zone for example. However, World of Warcraft is one game, it is not divided in World of Warcraft: PvE and World of Warcraft: PvP.

How would you like to see the game balanced, Prandard?
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90 Human Paladin
16105
do you appreciate that us PVE'rs (and we are the vast majority) get a bit feed up with the constant nurf's for the sake of balancing PVP


Remember the stampede nerf and the compensation pve hunters got? That more or less ruined our arena season along with the PvE buff to elemental shamans(the increased damage and longer cast time) that made this season more or less dreadful and close to unplayable, pver's already ruined a lot of arena seasons like S4, S8, S9, S10, S11, S12(didn't want to change TfB because it was a fun mechanic?) and now S13. So don't come and complain when they for once, do some real changes to overpowered to things for the sake of things.

Do you appreciate that us pvpers get feed up with this? Also, you're not the majority, the majority of players are the casuals who level(do dailies once they hit max level and at best, LFR so this doesn't really bother them), most of the active accounts don't even have MoP on them. Trying to buff up your argument by adding "vast majority" isn't really going to work when you're not even right.

Nor do I think that number of players really matters for Blizzard since they've gone out and said they want more people in PvP so the number of your player base hardly matters and don't act like it does when everyone who plays this game pays the same amount of money and we all deserve to enjoy whatever part we play, you mess up our game and we mess up yours - deal with it.
Edited by Easydragon on 19/07/2013 10:51 BST
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