PvP gear vs. PvE gear

The problem with that approach is that whenever there is an alternative way to get the same or similar gear, players will generally always choose the easiest/fastest route, even if that goes against their own personal enjoyment of the game; obviously that is something we would like to avoid and should be able to avoid with good design.


I've found that the fastest way to earn Honor points is by doing Heroics and change your Justice points to Honor

Bit sad that it is this way.
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90 Orc Hunter
9710
pvp'ers and pve'ers in the same gear would only make things worse.
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90 Pandaren Priest
10385
Design "flaws" are always going to be around with a game this big scale.

The problem I have at the moment (casual pvp-er) is that pve friends, who hate pvp, but just want to have fun because of no progress in PVE, actually go pvp. Shaman/ Paladin 2's PVE geared (ilvl 520) ---> 1600 rating within days. Conquest cap= 20K.

He now has more Tyrannical gear than I have, in a few weeks time. I know Blizz isn't balancing for 2v2's but the combo I am playing (MM Hunter + Mage) gets destroyed in 2's. I play for fun, but the fun is almost gone now that PVE peeps get faster/more gear and a higher rating due to a combo that's better and the PVE gear they have (had). I don't mind getting destroyed in 2's actually, I just need to get better.

It's not that I'm jelly or anything. It just "stings" a little. Not sure if it's related to base resilience or the conquest catch up system.
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90 Undead Rogue
6960
19/07/2013 09:49Posted by Taepsilum
Yes, we will nerf all new 5.4 PvE trinkets and also disable PvE set bonuses for PvP.


That's wonderful news, I must've missed it. Atleast then PvE players can do some PvP for fun AND have a reason to decide if they want to progress in it for the extra bonus sets. The biggest problem I had with the system so far is that PvE gear was too good, raid gear > honor gear actually made people get bored of pvp shortly after trying it.
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90 Goblin Priest
9180
Here's the solution.

Everyone has baseline 65% resi in INSTANCED PVP ONLY.

All PVP gear has resi and pvp power. When someone is fully PVP geared they will have 65% resi in the outside world AND in instanced PVP (not higher than 65%). And those who do not have PVP gear will have 0% (or simply a reduced amount) in the outside world but will have 65% in a battleground.

This way, everyone who enters a battleground has the same amount of resi regardless of gear which was the initial intention of giving everyone a fixed baseline resi. However if you encounter someone in the outside world with PVE HEROIC GEAR and you have full PVP gear, you will win 99% of the time unless you're really bad.

This will solve the terrible problem Blizzard has created. I'm sick of getting completely destroyed by heroic geared players (even normal mode gear is OP)...NEWS FLASH theyre not a minority, especially when you've made raiding content easier and the players themselves go out "hunting". I was killed by heroic geared MISTWEAVER MONK on my tyrannical geared enhancement shaman. it took 10+ people to kill him because of the baseline resi.

Your move Blizzard.
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90 Troll Hunter
6040
I think: PvE is fun, PvP is also fun. But mixing both and forcing game mechanics to apply to both game modes is not fun.
Just like: A Pandaren Wok meal is really tasty, Pandaren brew is also very tasty. mixing the brew into the wok does not at all taste good.

Earning gear costs much time, this makes it obvious, why people prefer playing damage above tank or go pvping with pve gear.
Thats why every gear should be fully reforgeable between damage, tank and pvp. People who own more armor sets still wouldnt need to reforge and still could switch armor sets everywhere and anytime.

Also, there shoud be a clear distiction between pve-, pvp- and mixed skills (like active and passive abilities in the spellbook). Mixed skills should work in different ways for pvp and pve, when it makes sense.
(e.g.
- Necrotic Strike - does not work in PVE
- Taunt - does not work in PVP
- Explosive Trap:
PVP: Deals xxx damage and yyy DoT
PVE: Deals 2x xxx damage and 1.5x yyy DoT, also causes Mobs to dance
)
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19/07/2013 10:32Posted by Thornassx
Yes, we will nerf all new 5.4 PvE trinkets and also disable PvE set bonuses for PvP.

We do understand and share your concerns about PvE trinkets being too good in PvP, they’re a very particular type of item, and are supposed to be very powerful in PvE. That concept is basically the root of all these issues, but we like that they are this powerful as it makes them particularly exciting and coveted items for PvE.

This is great news, Taepsilum!

do you appreciate that us PVE'rs (and we are the vast majority) get a bit feed up with the constant nurf's for the sake of balancing PVP

It is the other way around as well though.

An often suggested idea is to make two sets of abilities or change how they work upon entering an instanced PvP zone for example. However, World of Warcraft is one game, it is not divided in World of Warcraft: PvE and World of Warcraft: PvP.

How would you like to see the game balanced, Prandard?


I would like to see skills have the option for separate PVE / PVP function so that they can be balanced if needed on one side without affecting the other, take stampede it was a medium damage skill in PVE and bloody annoying for others in PVP so just disable it in PVP, as it is now its worthless in both situations.

trying to dogmatically balance all classes and all specs for PVP / RAID / small group solo end game content is impossible, it is far better imo to tweak skills where they cause an issue (and it is normally always in PVP that the issue occurs)
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Community
I've found that the fastest way to earn Honor points is by doing Heroics and change your Justice points to Honor

Bit sad that it is this way.
We have made the conversion ratio of justice-to-honor = 3:2 but if this happens consistently to most players then it’s not ideal; do you find that earning honor through dungeons is still faster than doing Bgs even when you’re in a good semi-fixed group?

This is one of those cases where PvP and PvE differ a lot, you know what to expect from a 5man dungeon, and you know on average how long it will take, especially when you have a friend or two speeding things up with top gear. When doing Bgs however, you never really know what you’re going to get, even with a semi-fixed group; the other team might put up a good fight and the game will last longer, or you might even lose; but in the end, isn’t that what PvP is all about, enjoying a good fight?
I mean, while the design concept that I talked about is still what we aim for, this might be one of those situations where on average, players still get more points through Bgs even if that isn’t true for everyone (example: if you have friends willing to go with you into 5mans but not into PvP), but we can look into the ratio it if the difference reveals to be significant.

On the other hand, I’d like to point out that currently, Conquest Points are exclusive to PvP and Valor to PvE, Justice and Honor are a sort of catch-up currencies, and while these latter are still important and should still respect some design boundaries, Conquest and Valor are the currencies where those boundaries have to be applied much more strictly and rigorously.
So for example, in case we ever allow Valor-to-Conquest again like we did in Cata or possibly even the opposite (Uh oh! ;), we would need to be very careful with the conversion ratio and maybe even impose a weekly cap. (we have no plans to do this atm, it’s just an example to better illustrate this argument)
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MVP
90 Human Paladin
15730
do you find that earning honor through dungeons is still faster than doing Bgs even when you’re in a good semi-fixed group?

The thing with random battlegrounds is that most of the honour is gained through the final win reward. The chances you win aren't 100% though, there are a lot of factors that play a role; you need a decent setup, skilled players, geared players, the right map, et cetera. Also, Warsong Gulch and Alterac Valley are often quick games, while Arathi Basin and Eye of the Storm take longer and reward less Honor Points/minute spent in the game.

In dungeons however, you are sure to receive X amount of Justice Points. Your group may be better or worse than another group you had, but you are sure to be done in the dungeon quite quick, because of the stage of the expansion we are in how easy dungeons are in general. You can't lose and get a smaller amount of points, like you can in battlegrounds. This provides a more secure and steady grind for players.

Another thing is that people often get frustrated for losing in a battleground when they are trying to gear up quickly, as losing is obviously going to make the grind longer.

EDIT: I only read the part of your post that I quoted, started writing and then forgot to read the rest. Just noticed that I am basically saying the same as you are in your post, lol.

isn’t that what PvP is all about, enjoying a good fight?

Essentially, yes. Although a lot of people want to go straight to the arena's or rated battlegrounds and are only grinding their gear because it is required for them to participate in rated PvP. They often don't enjoy the random battleground-grind.

19/07/2013 13:04Posted by Taepsilum
Conquest and Valor are the currencies where those boundaries have to be applied much more strictly and rigorously.

Totally agree with this. I don't mind if dungeons have a higher Honor Points/minute ratio, as it is the lesser currency and doesn't provide BiS PvP gear.
Edited by Thornassx on 19/07/2013 13:42 BST
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90 Goblin Rogue
12480
I've found that the fastest way to earn Honor points is by doing Heroics and change your Justice points to Honor

Bit sad that it is this way.
We have made the conversion ratio of justice-to-honor = 3:2 but if this happens consistently to most players then it’s not ideal; do you find that earning honor through dungeons is still faster than doing Bgs even when you’re in a good semi-fixed group?

This is one of those cases where PvP and PvE differ a lot, you know what to expect from a 5man dungeon, and you know on average how long it will take, especially when you have a friend or two speeding things up with top gear. When doing Bgs however, you never really know what you’re going to get, even with a semi-fixed group; the other team might put up a good fight and the game will last longer, or you might even lose; but in the end, isn’t that what PvP is all about, enjoying a good fight?
I mean, while the design concept that I talked about is still what we aim for, this might be one of those situations where on average, players still get more points through Bgs even if that isn’t true for everyone (example: if you have friends willing to go with you into 5mans but not into PvP), but we can look into the ratio it if the difference reveals to be significant.

On the other hand, I’d like to point out that currently, Conquest Points are exclusive to PvP and Valor to PvE, Justice and Honor are a sort of catch-up currencies, and while these latter are still important and should still respect some design boundaries, Conquest and Valor are the currencies where those boundaries have to be applied much more strictly and rigorously.
So for example, in case we ever allow Valor-to-Conquest again like we did in Cata or possibly even the opposite (Uh oh! ;), we would need to be very careful with the conversion ratio and maybe even impose a weekly cap. (we have no plans to do this atm, it’s just an example to better illustrate this argument)


And just as a thought, if you wanna gather Honor via BG's, there is one issue, that is making it fairly difficult from time to time, sadly it is the BG-bots, if you happen to get WSG with 3 bots, it leads to your team losing and when other team realizes that opposite team has many bots it leads to GY-camping.
If I want to leave bg due to this I get 15min deserter.

The reason why PvE'rs have been grinding HC(not too hc though)dungeons and have been converting JP gained to HP is that Justice Points have been utterly useless after like week 2 after MoP launch, thinking back, I think you should have made 489 reputation gear obtainable via JP at the launch of ToT patch, or what is your opinion to this Taepsilum?

I believe this change was coming at 5.4?
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PvP is about enjoying a good fight yes.
but it is very ahrdto enjoy a good fight when there are HP differances of 25-50% because of PvE gear.
I did 1 LFR and got 2 pieces of gear, of Ilevel 502, which were upgradable, yet i have to do many BG to buy 496 Honour gear.
currency isn't always the issue, and i don't see at such the ilevels are a big part, and even without pvp power you are still getting more stats anyone therfore raising your damage, epsecially if it is a class where the green stats (mastery for example) are also boosting certain damages.
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90 Human Paladin
16105
When doing Bgs however, you never really know what you’re going to get, even with a semi-fixed group; the other team might put up a good fight and the game will last longer, or you might even lose; but in the end, isn’t that what PvP is all about, enjoying a good fight?


When gearing up, I don't really think so. I don't enjoy long Bgs when I'm in 70% greens I just want to get my honor and get out. When I'm fully geared I don't mind a bit longer BGs though. I think getting honor points is far to slow at the moment, something needs to be changed with it.

I do mostly arenas if anything but I used to enjoy Bgs a lot back in Wrath & early Cataclysm and gearing up alts, even while enjoying Bgs was very painful and back then it was a lot faster to gear than now.

It's just not fun barely being able to do anything but being a CC bot, some might say it's a part of "gear progression" but I don't really believe in that. I think most people enjoy PvP when they've got their honor gear, the progression part should be from conquest points and not honor points somewhat equal to how raiding is, in the early expansion sure you can have some gear progression from honor but the longer you go on the less honor should matter imo and the focus should shift to conquest.

Adding back valor -> conq and the other way around would be great, once you're done raiding you can maybe try out some PvP if you're a raider and the other way around. I find it kinda weird it's not like that right now considering how you clearly stated you wanted more cross over between the two

Also there needs to be more ways of spending your honor points, gear shouldn't be the only thing to waste your spare points on, if you're not an enchanter like me you can't really do anything with them, none is going to buy 10 motes for 400 honor and maybe get one spirit of harmony in the end. Maybe add some of those gems back like in wrath.
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I've found that the fastest way to earn Honor points is by doing Heroics and change your Justice points to Honor

Bit sad that it is this way.
We have made the conversion ratio of justice-to-honor = 3:2 but if this happens consistently to most players then it’s not ideal; do you find that earning honor through dungeons is still faster than doing Bgs even when you’re in a good semi-fixed group?



If I solo-Que with my healer or with my tank it is an Instant-Que time (mostly, always for tank) and with a 120 JP per boss, most heroics have around 4 bosses = 480 JP (gives 250 honor and 105 jp). And that takes around 12-15 minutes with at least 2 people well-geared.

It takes around 3-4 minutes, sometimes more, to join a battleground and inside the battleground ti takes around 1.20-1.40 for the battleground to start. If you win you get around 300 hp and you dont always win. And a battleground can take some time to finish.

Clearly the Heroic-runs makes more Honorpoints then battlegrounds by time. Atleast thats what i've noticed. I might be wrong.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
10445
I agree that honor grind feels much too slow and band-aid like, it's part of the reason why I made my thread - in PvE you get a gradual slope of heroics -> lfr -> raid with flexible difficulty. In PvP you're thrown into battlegrounds with tyrannical people and you stand no chances due to the insane gear gaps between freshly-dinged or even honor-geared players and raiders / geared people.

There could be a more PvE-like system in that a BG win or a personal achievement (top 3 damage, top 3 kills, top 3 healing, top 3 flag caps / returns, etc.) award a token which a player can use to buy a honor / conquest item, kinda like dungeon drops in PvE except with a bit more control so that for instance a ret doesn't end up with holy piece. Weapons can cost 2-5 tokens.

Or just lower honor gear prices.
Edited by Silvaria on 19/07/2013 17:20 BST
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90 Undead Mage
8315
The problem with that approach is that whenever there is an alternative way to get the same or similar gear, players will generally always choose the easiest/fastest route, even if that goes against their own personal enjoyment of the game


You know in PvP the situation right now is EVEN WORSE as everybody knows pvp trinkets after the pvp power change are horribly bad. Don`t even mention them. Their PvE rivals completely outshine them but we can`t get the PvE trinkets at all from PvP. It is not even a question of the fastest route but the fact that there is no PvP route at all.
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5 Night Elf Warrior
0
BUFF MORE THEN NERF = FUNNIER GAMEPLAY = happier players and subscriber's = more players are willing to come back
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Maybe have a third spec for PvP? Toggle it on and voila.. your PvE gear gets different stats suitable for PvP.
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my 2 cent,

pvp servers are or should be about pvp, this is why i rolled the pvp server.
I do like to do LFR to see what the story/boss is all about, but this is more becous i have to right now to survive wpvp.

pve servers should be about pve. If you like raiding you should go on these realms.

so pvp server pvp ownage
and pve server for some pve ownage :P
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