Human Infestation in PvP

90 Undead Rogue
5800
Previously, what made EMfH and WotF such strong racial abilities is that in many cases you could simply replace the Medallion with a PvE trinket and you would have more damage as well as getting to retain some form of crowd control removal. With the change in 5.4 resulting in changes to PvP trinkets and item level caps, these racial bonuses are not as strong as they were in the past.
  • PvE gear in instanced PvP has an item level cap, PvP gear has no item level cap.
  • You get additional resilience from equipping a Medallion with another PvP trinket.

To take a quick theory-crafting quote from [url="http://pvp-live.com/5-4-pvp-stats-guide/"]this blog[/url] created by Eldacar:
Eldacar:
For those of you contemplating using a PVE trinket or two here are some facts to help you make your decision. The 2600 Resilience offered by the PVP trinket set bonus provides roughly 2.31% additional damage reduction from baseline, which is about 8.25% effective damage reduction after factoring in the value scaling. Furthermore the set bonus will always increase your effective health by 32.11% relative to displayed health, so if you are currently at baseline you would go from 357% EH to 389% EH.

In what situations do you feel that it's more beneficial to be using an additional damage trinket over the Medallion paired with another PvP trinket to benefit from the Human and Undead racials?


Doesn't change the fact that it is still an advantage because of it's ability to double as a PVP trinket.

Theoretically a human could still choose to use two pvp damage trinkets, which would situationally be more powerful.

Or, maybe they'd even equip a PVE tanking trinket. I seem to recall a lot of clothies running around with Essence of Gossamer and Corroded Skeleton Key during wotlk
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90 Worgen Hunter
18105
While we're on the subject of fixing racials, can we get this mess sorted called Beast Slaying for PvE? A flat 5% damage bonus on top of the 1% expertise with a ranged weapon and haste cooldown you can stack with other things is way too strong. No matter how situational.

Other than that I don't see any major issues with racials. Would be nice if Tauren got a minor DPS increasing racial like 1% mastery or something, but it doesn't look like Tauren are underplayed at all.
Edited by Bovan on 01/10/2013 12:22 BST
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90 Human Paladin
17235
And if this pair of trinkets is so good as blue said, aren't the humans little screwed, what's the point of having 2 cc removal on shared cd?


The Setbonus inculdes Battlemasters, Proc, On-Use and Insignia-PvP-Trinkets.


Or, maybe they'd even equip a PVE tanking trinket. I seem to recall a lot of clothies running around with Essence of Gossamer and Corroded Skeleton Key during wotlk


While I do agree that PvE Trinkets in PvP as a Human are very powerful -
PvP Trinkets are now a lot better and this makes the Human not as powerful as it once was.

Am I complaining? Not really. I always found PvE Trinkets in PvP (and the resulting "edge" of humans over other races) to be a thing that shouldn't be one.
What you maybe missed is the fact that Blizz nerfed the Proc Chances of PvE Trinkets in PvP a lot with the last Patch which makes again PvP Trinkets the better way of doing things.

The thing that goes on my nerves are that people still complain about the human racial just because and miss the fact that like 2 Dmg-PvP-Trinkets Things like a AoE-Silence (which I very much like on my Bloodelf-Ret-Alt) are just situational really make a difference (again: I'm NOT talking about PvE Trinkets here).
Edited by Vjnzen on 01/10/2013 12:42 BST
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90 Undead Priest
9205
2xdps pvp trink its > 1xdps and 1 x insygnia
human can have 2x dps and stil have racial=insygnia
Edited by Anthema on 01/10/2013 12:30 BST
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Community
01/10/2013 11:59Posted by Nananamagee
How can you possibly be trying to deny the superiority of PvE trinkets in the light of the past?
I'm not denying their strength in the past when you were trying to push for maximum damage. Going for a PvE trinket by sacrificing the Medallion and having WotF or EMfH was by far a good choice and it's the reason we made the changes in patch 5.4. Now when you trade the Medallion for a damage trinket you are losing out on 8.25% effective damage reduction which equates to approximately 32.11% increase in effective health.

01/10/2013 11:59Posted by Nananamagee
Also what exactly are you talking about PvE gear cap in PvP? The way i understand it is that the cap will eventually rise to the same iLvL PvP gear is by default. so they are equal in terms of ILvL at that time.
We have mentioned in the past that the item level ceiling for PvE gear will actually cap out at 512. PvP gear has an item level of 522 and is unaffected by the cap, this means that PvE gear actually misses out on 10 item levels compared to PvP gear.

01/10/2013 11:59Posted by Nananamagee
You think that the survivability boost given by the trinket duo will suddenly make people who try to max damage in any ways possible to not try to max damage in any way possible?
It's a trade-off now and more of a choice. In the past, while not necessary, it was better to have the second damage trinket; now it's a choice between damage and survivability rather than how it was in the past where you got damage and sacrificed very little.

I’m not saying that EMfH isn’t a strong racial, and the same goes for many of the racials that are available, but the changes which occurred in patch 5.4 have helped to deal with the popularity of choosing to remove the Medallion in favor of an extra damage trinket.
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90 Human Paladin
17235
2xdps pvp trink its > 1xdps and 1 x insygnia
human can have 2x dps and stil have racial=insygnia


And 1 Insignia + a PvP Trinket + WotF makes 2 CC-Breaks in under 2 Minutes.
Or 1 Insignia + a PvP Trinket + Arcane Torrent gives me the edge when I need to interupt more then one target at once.

Yes, the Human Racial is a strong one but not as strong as most of the people here claim it to be and no, you do not loose against Humans just because they are humans.
Back then with very nice PvE Trinkets (Affli + this Haste Trinket in Icc comes to mind) Human was stupidly op but even then I did not loose against every one of them with my bloodelf pally.
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90 Gnome Rogue
10875
I agree with OP. It would be nice to see more race diversity within the game. I've never understood why people who play a fantasy mmo choose to be something that's real. Agreed the racial is too nice to pass up. I'll stick with my gnome regardless :).
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90 Night Elf Druid
17425
Racials have always been a big part of character creation if you plan to play something on serious level, regardless if it's pvp or pve, if I was seriously raiding I would be playing a worgen due to 1% critical, if I was a warlock and on horde side there wouldn't be any other choice than to pick an orc.

Same applies with PvP on alliance aside and human trinket but I think it's a bit too late to change that, start of a new expansion would be good time for that.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
21475
Racials should be renamed to traits and work like a talent tree.

That way the faction or race imbalances are gone and ppl pick the race based on looks preference instead of feeling the need to be race A or B because of the benefits.

I for one would love to have orc racials, but happen to play aliance. They are simply perfect for enh.

Axe/fistweapon expertise: nearly every agi weapon i this, maces do excist but very rarely, and for every mace there are 2-3 non maces available, which, with the exception of hand of dark animus, were also better itemised (not considdering the 2.4 speed abomination as an a enh weapon, too fast)

On use AP/SP bonus: great to pair with nuke cds for enhanced effect

Pet dmg bonus (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=65222): 2% extra pet dmg, yet another dmg boost

15% shorter stuns: the biggest dread for enh is interruption of combat, especially before we can get our combat system going= totems and procs. fear/magic can be broken while affected, disarm can be weapon chained, stuns however we have nothing against, and in some pve encounters even this is a dmg boost (stunned shorter=can fight the mobs sooner, and in halfus' case even interrupt aoe= the raid takes less dmg)

Best of it is that they dont require an external source (food) to do anything (cant get buff food in arena) and that you maintain them even if you should die and get ressed (on lei shen hc for example you didn't stack with the debuff but run out and die to save the rest).

Dwarf racials expertise is overruled by sub par itemisation on maces thusfar, and their rarity in raids. (one mace being on par, and even in bis a dwarf would use the fist as 1 of the weapons in ToT as they'd overcap expertise otherwise)

Draenei racials ar ok @ the start of an xpac where hit is harder to come by, and are somewhat usefull for soloing and arena (non nature self heal).

Trolls were great in ToT, but apart from that their racials are ok, haste on demand can be used with other cds, but the rest is plain useless.
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90 Human Paladin
17235
Racials have always been a big part of character creation if you plan to play something on serious level, regardless if it's pvp or pve, if I was seriously raiding I would be playing a worgen due to 1% critical, if I was a warlock and on horde side there wouldn't be any other choice than to pick an orc.


Imo they shouldn't nerf Human Racials but buff the other Races. Tauren Warstomp would be on my wishlist (when melee) for example.
To make Racials a non-thing would take away a lot of flavor of the game imo.
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I’m not saying that EMfH isn’t a strong racial, and the same goes for many of the racials that are available, but the changes which occurred in patch 5.4 have helped to deal with the popularity of choosing to remove the Medallion in favor of an extra damage trinket.


How did it?

You equip badge and insignia of conquest. Its a no brainer.

Ofc the insignia is a chance to proc, but with the speed of rogue attacks (and I've tried this as human on the PTR) it pretty much always procs within the first couple of seconds of opening an attack.

Result is, every human rogue who opens on me, the majority of the time is doing so with +4-5k extra agility.

If Wotf didn't share cooldown with medallion it might be close in power to EMFH.

5.4 only discourages people from dropping in a raid trinket. But the fact that PvE gear > PvP Gear for certain aspects of PvP is another thread.....
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90 Undead Mage
10565
Nakatoir, when are you going to understand that it also exists pvp outside instanced pvp?
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90 Worgen Druid
9010
01/10/2013 12:38Posted by Nakatoir
Now when you trade the Medallion for a damage trinket you are losing out on 8.25% effective damage reduction which equates to approximately 32.11% increase in effective health.
Thanks for elegantly pointing out why the games are so slow this season. :P
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90 Troll Priest
16885
@ Nakatoir :

Human monks have the option to have 2 trinkets (nimble, EMfH).
Human hunters have the option to have 2 trinkets (bw, EMfH).
Human paladins have the option to have 2 trinkets (bubble, EMfH).

It's an unfair advantage in pvp, and it should be removed. No matter how you twist and turn it, it's unfair advantage compared to horde and other alliance races. Ideally races should be about the race and not the racial. All racials should provide a performance gain (that is withing 10 dps of each other) but not a toolkit or utility gain.

I'm pretty sure that if you decide to remove the trinket, a lot of people would be more happy in general as they can play the race they want to play and humans could become more attractive in pve.

To quote blizzard : If a talent is picked too much over the others and interferes or blatantly prevents you with choosing other ones, it needs to be adjusted. I'm directly firing that lame quote back at you regarding races and their racials.

About the losing damage reduction for a damage trinket is a pretty useless statement. If you can kill stuff faster with a pve or damage trinket, that lost damage taken reduction becomes useless and not needed.

Thanks.
Edited by Dakushisai on 01/10/2013 13:52 BST
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90 Worgen Druid
0
We have mentioned in the past that the item level ceiling for PvE gear will actually cap out at 512. PvP gear has an item level of 522 and is unaffected by the cap, this means that PvE gear actually misses out on 10 item levels compared to PvP gear.

I am pretty sure that my 498 PVP daggers were scaled down to 496 in battlegrounds.

Human monks have the option to have 3 trinkets (nimble, trinkets, EMfH).
Human hunters have the option to have 3 trinkets (bw, trinkets, EMfH).
Human paladins have the option to have 3 trinkets (bubble, trinkets, EMfH).

You might want to do some research before making such bold statement. EMFH shares cooldown with PVP trinket.
Edited by Vessaë on 01/10/2013 13:42 BST
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90 Troll Priest
16885
01/10/2013 13:41Posted by Vessaë
We have mentioned in the past that the item level ceiling for PvE gear will actually cap out at 512. PvP gear has an item level of 522 and is unaffected by the cap, this means that PvE gear actually misses out on 10 item levels compared to PvP gear.

I am pretty sure that my 498 PVP daggers were scaled down to 496 in battlegrounds.

Human monks have the option to have 3 trinkets (nimble, trinkets, EMfH).
Human hunters have the option to have 3 trinkets (bw, trinkets, EMfH).
Human paladins have the option to have 3 trinkets (bubble, trinkets, EMfH).

You might want to do some research before making such bold statement. EMFH shares cooldown with PVP trinket.


For the full 2 minute duration? When was that changed?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12150
@ Nakatoir :

Human monks have the option to have 2 trinkets (nimble, EMfH).
Human hunters have the option to have 2 trinkets (bw, EMfH).
Human paladins have the option to have 2 trinkets (bubble, EMfH).


You got it all wrong sweets. Trinket and EMFH share cooldown for the full duration. This means you either use trinket or EMFH, and they are mutually exclusive.
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90 Worgen Druid
0
For the full 2 minute duration? When was that changed?


For EMFH it was that way for as long as I can remember.
Edited by Vessaë on 01/10/2013 13:57 BST
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90 Human Paladin
18480
Bring on the Gnome Army, I say ;)
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90 Troll Priest
16885
@ Nakatoir :

Human monks have the option to have 2 trinkets (nimble, EMfH).
Human hunters have the option to have 2 trinkets (bw, EMfH).
Human paladins have the option to have 2 trinkets (bubble, EMfH).


You got it all wrong sweets. Trinket and EMFH share cooldown for the full duration. This means you either use trinket or EMFH, and they are mutually exclusive.


That doesn't matter too much, the point still stands. No class should have free trinkets other than class or spec abilities and talents. Humans have the option to run with an extra dps trinket which is pretty OP compared to other races. And don't bring in the BS about you lose damage reduction. Damage reduction is futile if you end up killing everything faster.
Edited by Dakushisai on 01/10/2013 13:59 BST
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