Do our posts really matter?

90 Night Elf Druid
7690
Does it make a difference?


Maybe doesn't make a difference, but it does matter.
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Pandaren Shaman
10400
I'm inclined to say 'no' on this matter. The forums were never intended to be viewed by developers or even have that many ideas passed onto them; they were made for player disussion with, you guessed it, other players. But because of the false hope and CM interation on the forums, as well as the MVP programme, people feel as though the developers read these constantly.

Devs don't read the forum. Period.

Maybe on some occasions when a post gets high rated some CM will pass it along to the devs, but otherwise no


Cataclysm was a huge proof that they actually do. They implemented aaaaallllll the bad ideas :D


This. A lot of good ideas have made it but this is the perfect example of what happens if we were in Ghostcrawler's team. I love going over suggestions and if it were up to me and me alone I'd implement most of them, but they probably wouldn't lead the game to better shores. Chances are it would take up development time for things that benefit vastly more people with longer lasting appeal.

5) Last but not least (and this is my favourite mantra) and that is "You can post as if you are a green or blue poster by emulating a good behaviour on the forums". Only few get selected to be an actual "MVP" (Most Valuable Poster) but it does not stop the rest of us posting in such a way as if we are one TOO!!! The colour of your post does not mean your post does not matter, but your behaviour on the forums DOES!!!


This is the only thing I disagree with and I'm living proof of it. It's nice when people (like yourself) make good examples and it's these kinds of posts that make the forums a much better place. If I could recommend you and others, I would!
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90 Night Elf Druid
7690
02/12/2013 08:48Posted by Johni
A lot of good ideas have made it


Bad ones too :)
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1 Dwarf Paladin
0
Forums like general are here so players can "let off steam" in a place that's controlled by Blizz.

They don't scan the forums for suggestions.

FWIW their "suggestions system" is limited to 500 characters, which is too little for anything but trivial suggestions. You might get "please change the color of the snow in MoP" into 500 characters (suggestions must contain context, description, and justification though, so even that would be hard), but it's impossible to describe anything that would affect the game in an interesting way in 500 characters.

* Companies looking for discussion about their products don't run their forums this way.
* Companies looking for product input don't run their suggestions systems this way.

This doesn't matter all that much of course, except for people who want to use one or both channels to really communicate with Blizz, rather than with other players.
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Community
The forums exist so that players can come to discuss the game with others, ask questions, get advice and generally share their thoughts and feedback.

A huge aspect of our job here in the Community team is to gather your feedback and pass it on to the developers. We see your threads, we read what you are saying, and we make sure the devs know what the players think. Developers do read the forums, they just can't dedicate as much time to it as we can, because they're concentrating on actually building the game you're all playing.

This is why it's really important that, when you make posts, you're clear, concise and constructive. It's easy to become emotional when writing about something which frustrates you, especially when you're passionate about the game like we all are, but arguing and derailing of threads often means the thread in question becomes less valuable to us, and less likely we could present it as a good example of player sentiment.

The forums are vital for us when gathering your feedback every day. Please don't believe otherwise.
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1 Dwarf Paladin
0
@Takralus

There's no feedback. There's nowhere we can look and see what is/isn't interesting to Blizz.

This doesn't encourage positive input. Quite the opposite - the evolution of this kind of forum is towards complaints rather than potentially useful suggestions.

The organic process: "see a problem; confirm it's general, work on solutions" is naturally subverted by uncertainty - towards complaints rather than analysis and agreement on potential solutions.

Not your fault, nor any of your predecessors. Most likely a side-effect of a careless decision taken long ago. But problems exist independently of blame :)

This could be fixed. It should be fixed.

:
(P.S. to any reader: I'm aware of the inherent contradiction in this kind of post ... but I post to entertain myself, not to inform Blizz :)
Edited by Kryzstch on 02/12/2013 10:46 GMT
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90 Human Death Knight
13240
Takralus, the main problem is that we don't know what get's through and what not.
That we have no idea what the hell gets to the dev and what not so,...

It's like screeming in the dark pit at night, while a speechless man hears you and pops up, then goes away... You don't know if he's coming back , and if he comes back, what he is going to do? Throw a rock at you or hand a ladder down?
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Yes and no.
Yes because devs are informed about what poeple talk about and no because they don't usually do what players want. Sometimes best developer's decision is one of players favorites, but more often it's not.
Also I'm bitter about this topic because devs didn't listen people feedback about level 90 talents for Mages ("it's not the Mages who don't like it, it's just forum users", "echo chamber effect", yada-yada) and those horrible things went live. So...
Edited by Аксариен on 02/12/2013 11:48 GMT
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18 Blood Elf Warlock
100
This doesn't encourage positive input. Quite the opposite - the evolution of this kind of forum is towards complaints rather than potentially useful suggestions.


Never a truer word spoken.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12425
Even if you came up with a great idea and it got implemented you'd never get a shred of credit from them. Just look at the addons over the years that have been integrated into the UI. Sure, you can take gratification in knowing that your idea/addon made it into a version of the game but, your contribution would never be officially acknowledged.
I think Blizzard would be in a heap of trouble if they ever officially acknowledged any non-employee, non-contracted person doing things that create economic value for the company. Imagine a kid living in a country with laws against child labour. Seems to be a minefield to me, even before you start thinking about real world rule "exploitorz" trying to lawyer money out of Blizzard.

The only recognition you should ask for is that of the devs, when they follow some of the things you explained. And, of course, the recognition of the other players when they actually like or hate the resulting feature. IMHO, game design is never for yourself, but for players at large, even though it often starts with a personal itch that you want to scratch.
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1 Dwarf Paladin
0
02/12/2013 12:48Posted by Mücke
I think Blizzard would be in a heap of trouble if they ever officially acknowledged any non-employee, non-contracted person doing things that create economic value for the company.
This is close to correct, through Intellectual Capital management IRL is a bit more complex of course.

Blizz must have unrestricted rights (or manageable, formally licensed rights) to everything they use in-game. Where there is the slightest doubt they must vigorously defend their ownership.

This obviously doesn't make use of licensed code impossible (they must be using licensed operating systems, databases, etc).

It doesn't make suggestions impossible either, nor use of user-developed add-ons. It does make things a lot more complicated though.

Even ownership of ideas randomly floated in a forum can turn complicated. The post you quoted, looking for "too much" for addons which become redundant when Blizz provides the same capabilities in their own way, shows one (of many) ways it can become messy.

For example there's always someone who tries to monetize formal recognition. Always.
They have to be handled in advance via an active acknowledgement for each discrete input that making the suggestion means giving up any/all IP rights. You can see this in Blizz's suggestions system (the 500 character limit that makes them near-useless is for a different reason though).

Blizz took the easy way out when they made these forums, and set things up so they don't formally scan them for input, don't allow developer/ forum poster contact, and don't respond to suggestions in the forums.

IMO it's not the right way for WoW - but their IP lawyers certainly recommended this, and they just didn't care enough to push back.

The flip side - I know, from direct personal experience, that there are ways of gathering and discussing product suggestions that don't run into IP problems.

Blizz could easily afford to do this. Easily. There are plenty of examples out on the web of large companies doing what they should do.

In their defense though - a lot of S/W companies do the same thing as Blizz. It's almost certain that everyone reading this is doing so on software stacks that include companies who also find it more convenient to isolate the development process from customer input.
Edited by Kryzstch on 02/12/2013 14:08 GMT
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90 Human Paladin
17865
They do not read the forum but get sometimes feedback when CMs upvote a thread (at least it seems so).

I remember the 4.1 20 Sec Nerf on WoG for Ret and how even good Rets like Vanguards said this would be terrible. Did they change it? Yes but after a whole season was ruined for us rets.

This is one of the times I really saw how useless the forum as a medium to comunicate with the devs really is.
I do not think every crybaby in history should be heard by the devs but when there is something really really wrong with something and communicated in a nice and mannered way they really should atleast read it.

Maybe posts with X Upvotes could be sent to the devs per EMail or something - CMs these days seem (at least in the EU Forums) to only copy english posts and/or just tell the thread opener that he/her violated the forum rules and /locks them.

Many good concepts get buried in crap (I almost feel that this is the case in all of the class forums) and no one sees them because of that. Lets be honest - many of these concepts are canges to things many of the "normal" playerbase wouldnt even know that they were good ideas (I can only speak for Ret-Paladins and there were some really cool ideas in our forums but almost nobody cared for them because there are very little (good) Ret-Paladins to begin with).

Well I hope this wall of text was at least understandable - I like to ramble about sometimes.
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90 Pandaren Hunter
9140
So 100s of people are making posts about how they would like the game to be. What changes they would like. And lots of those people have made good suggestions.

My question is ... Does it make a difference?

Do the employees of Blizzard entertainment really listen to the people who decide to post on these forums and do they implement changes based on these suggestions that would make the game better? Or do they only give in to people who claim the game it too hard?


We know they do get a lot of feedback from the forums as most of the stuff discussed at blizzcon was the same stuff that we discuss
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The forums are vital for us when gathering your feedback every day. Please don't believe otherwise.


I'm not buying it. And I'll tell you why....

Back when MoP Beta was released, rogues suffered probably the biggest nerfbat ever inflicted on one class. Almost every single ability was nerfed in some way.

Playing rogue in beta was agony. There was not one single spec out there that a rogue could count as a better than 30% chance of killing AND many specs could quite easily look upon rogues as a free kill.

There was clearly something very wrong. Blizzards attempt to pair down abilities as it did across all specs and classes had just gone too far.

Threads were made. Both here and in the US. On the US rogue forums a Blue Poster even extended a constructive thread for visibility and it went on for 150 pages+. On EU forums thread after thread after thread was made by disgruntled rogues. Most of them constructive and making requests for simple changes.

Months and months of beta went by, rogue concerns went unanswered and we launched into MoP in the most pathetically weak state I have known my rogue to be in in 8 years.

Only now in 5.4.1 have rogues finally found their feet. Finally got some damage. Finally gotten rid of the need to have rupture on a target or lose out on 25% damage (even though you did it cackhandedly through a glyph).

Many of the things that rogues complained about in beta have actually eventually being changed. Sadly though, more than a year after the problems were first pointed out by the rogue community.

And guess what......we're already looking at another expansion.
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Nope, our posts dont matter. There are so much bugs reported since WotLK and none of them fixed. For example - spirit on BG (dont remember the name of NPC, the one who ressurects you when you are dead) too often doesnt res me. It is rly frustrating to stay dead for 2-3 minutes...
Edited by Каитлин on 02/12/2013 16:29 GMT
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I don't know how much people can be ungrateful just because their single requested thing wasn't met yet.

Players asked for easier ways to find groups? LFD was introduced in 3.3.
Players asked for a feature to change how their gear looks? Transmog was introduced in 4.3.
Players asked for account wide mounts/pets/achievements? Request granted with 5.0.4.
Players asked heirlooms to be distributed among servers? That's coming in the next patch, and is also improved upon with 6.0.
Players asked for a feature to support player housing? Garrisons are coming in 6.0.

And those are only examples.

I mean I am FAR from pro-Blizzard and I am pissed off at them and some of the things they do half of the time, but to say they never listen to players' demands and even implement when the time is right it is simply ungrateful.
Edited by Xiu on 02/12/2013 17:29 GMT
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02/12/2013 10:26Posted by Takralus
and we make sure the devs know what the players think.


You let the devs know that windfury needs buffing yet?
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90 Goblin Rogue
8700
Incoming Blue with a response about how important we are to them.


The forums exist so that players can come to discuss the game with others, ask questions, get advice and generally share their thoughts and feedback.

A huge aspect of our job here in the Community team is to gather your feedback and pass it on to the developers. We see your threads, we read what you are saying, and we make sure the devs know what the players think. Developers do read the forums, they just can't dedicate as much time to it as we can, because they're concentrating on actually building the game you're all playing.

This is why it's really important that, when you make posts, you're clear, concise and constructive. It's easy to become emotional when writing about something which frustrates you, especially when you're passionate about the game like we all are, but arguing and derailing of threads often means the thread in question becomes less valuable to us, and less likely we could present it as a good example of player sentiment.

The forums are vital for us when gathering your feedback every day. Please don't believe otherwise.
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90 Night Elf Monk
8770
Posted by Takralus
and we make sure the devs know what the players think.

You let the devs know that windfury needs buffing yet?


And what about the people complaining that they want the night that was in Classic WoW back?
Edited by Mãrkules on 02/12/2013 17:51 GMT
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
14665
The forums are vital for us when gathering your feedback every day. Please don't believe otherwise.
I would love to agree but no~.
Feedback was in Wotlk before 25=10 and how was Raiding population gonna suffer that people were writting on every post/thread...etc..etc...
Cataclysm you saw the amazing drop and now the....not existance raiding community.
So likely to say you dont even bother reading a near 50k x 25-man raider's~ people were writting on forums.
You already saw how the deny is happening when you put 25=10 lockout.... late wotlk era and ofc .... how people we're simply angry by this change..

And to say the best?
The only thing you have done to the game since then is to implent a way to stop bleeding from the loss of subs that you guys created....

So since you take the feedback and read...etc...etc.?
Mind to delight us why we have 20k guild's.? Still raiding ??
I doubt that you guys bother at all. If you bother even at 1% we wouldn't see such a low represetation within raiding guilds that right now those guild's in number are close to vanilla...time and descreasing day by day.

Anyway gratz on creating 1x pet....
Communication of subs/customer's with blues is dead years now.. (Keep up the job with pet's threads...or sffsdf anything that dont have to do with the game )
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