<SUGGESTION> "Mythic Dungeons" in WoD

90 Blood Elf Mage
7525
Hey, long time WoW player here, recently out of retirement.

Ever since Blizzcon and your announcement of Mythic raiding, fixed raid sizes that allowed you to tune encounters especially for the portion of your player base that loves a challenge, I've been thinking, and suggesting on MMO-Champion that there should be a mythic version of 5 man dungeons as well.

The way this would work is: The difficulty level would be above todays heroics. They would not be available for random queuing, a group needs to be formed first like heroic scenarios are today. Dungeons would be tuned to around Cataclysm level for bosses and TBC level for trash. They would require players to use a wide array of skills and a high level of cooperation. They will not be timed and they would present a progression path into raiding.

Basically it would look like this: Leveling dungeons > Normal lvl 100 dungeons > Heroic lvl 100 dungeons > Mythic level 100 dungeons

Why do this?

Alot of people I've played with get easily bored in WoW after 5 mans were virtually made worthless. They feel they are forced into heroic/scenarios/TI>LFR>Flex>Normal>heroic raids. Alot of players don't fit in that mold, they like challenging small group content. I believe by introducing a "mythic" version of dungeons and introduce it as a progression path you would give players more to do, and give the game more longevity between patches. I believe it will bring back a segment of the player base that has been a little neglected lately.

Of course, beliefs alone is not factual in any sense of the word is it now? No, as a trained statistician I believe in gathering data before I give any kind of estimates. That is why I made a poll on the Warlords of Draenor sub forums on MMO-Champion to see if I was going anywhere with my assumptions. So, I present to you the voice of just under 300 voters (that is 300 today, might be more when you see this) and you can interpret the numbers, arguments etc. as you see fit. I do hope you read a bit about the topic and that you take it into consideration. It will be a huge success if implemented in the same fashion as you plan to implement mythic raids.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1414985-Warlords-of-Draenor-5-man-Mythic-dungeons-Are-you-for-or-against-it

Thank you for seeing our cry for more content, now give us our dungeons back. MYTHICS ARE HARD!
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90 Night Elf Rogue
7465
I hope they just stay at LFR, Normal, and HC. Its pointless to do the same raids over and over in 5 diffrent difficult levels...
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90 Blood Elf Mage
7525
We are talking about 5-man dungeons, not raids.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12010
If you talk TBC heroic, then I'd love to see some actual coordinated clearing of end-game content. Problem there is that the community is so ruddy spoiled on facerolling everything, that finding an actual group that can manage to clear it will be headachingly tough.

I also miss the concept of Challenge Mode in your idea. Where does that fit the way you see it, and how would it differentiate from Mythic dungeons?
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90 Human Rogue
9250
I like this idea. I really miss my hard five mans.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5545
How about this idea: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8882748659? Kinda similar in spirit.
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
10470
I think this sounds like a cool idea. I enjoy 5 man dungeons but the heroic ones we have now are a bit easy and I don't really like the sound of how the challenge mode dungeons work all that much.
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Pandaren Shaman
10400
I also miss the concept of Challenge Mode in your idea. Where does that fit the way you see it, and how would it differentiate from Mythic dungeons?


My guess is that both would co-exist, but Mythic would grant gear and Challenge would grant vanity items and transmogrification gear. The latter would also have a timer.

Based on what I've heard, Challenge Mode dungeons have almost no replay value when completed. If this is true, I would imagine Mythic dungeons would provide hugely more incentive to go back - no stress of the timer but still high difficulty. HC scenarios were a step in the right direction in my honest opinion, with both their difficulty and rewards which made me go back for more. The only reason why I do so few of them is because I keep getting sodding Secrets of Ragefire.

I love the idea, and I hope such a suggestion makes it into the game!
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90 Draenei Mage
15475
I approve of this thread!

Please give back harder dungeons! I never played in tbc, but I liked the cata dungeons (before they got nerfed)!
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5155
+1
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90 Orc Warrior
10345
This sounds like a good idea, I read one on the US forums and searched for its EU counterpart.

I think the problem is, that people want to have the option of 'hard to attain' but then a lot of people complain that they can't obtain them. The way that Blizz seem to have mitigated this is by making the rewards cosmetic (mounts, pets, transmog gear).

I love the idea of the old style Heroics from TBC, I personally really enjoyed them. But even those got easy mode when you got some gear (I remember face rolling some of the TBC dungeons once geared).

I think that this dungeon model would have to to use iLevel scaling, to enable the content to always be challenging. It would have to utilise crowd control (which could lead to class favoring).

If the dungeon model rewarded raid items, it would become just another 'required' instance to get the max chance for gear in a given lock out. People would then start to complain that X class never gets picked for groups and get all entitled (which put us in this face roll mess in the first place).

So in my eyes the only real reward I can see for Mythic Dungeons (that doesn't cause it to get a nerf!) is renown, mounts, pets or transmog items.

Challange mode has its place, and is very cool. But its not the one size that fits all solution that we want. The timer is a pain in the butt, and takes away an important element I found in TBC heroic dungeons - if you or someone fails, skill and clever tactics can save the day! (If you fail in challange, you pretty much have to reset and start again).

On a side note, I think the reward frequency of challenge modes needs an overhaul. Its kind of an all or nothing deal at the moment (you complete them all, you get it all! You do one, you get a tacky teleport). I would suggest something like, you get a transmog item (in the set) per gold challenge dungeon completion (helm and shoulders near the end) and then maybe a flying mount at the end.
Edited by Dorny on 09/12/2013 14:27 GMT
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90 Gnome Warlock
12370
i don't know if i'd like 3 versions of the same dungeon.. maybe if they'd scrap heroic altogether.
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Community
I’d like to start out by saying that we’re completely aware of the demand from the community for dungeons at a very high difficulty level.

As you know, WoD will (re)introduce the normal and heroic difficulties for 5man's at max level, which is already a very nice change in my opinion.
There are players who have been playing WoW for a very long time, they’re extremely skilled and will only be satisfied with the highest level of difficulty that we throw at them, that’s “perfect entertainment” for this type of players.
We also know that not everyone can raid in very high difficulty environments due to its big time commitment. Sometimes life changes, and suddenly instead of 3-4 hours every 2 days, some of these players will only have 1 or 2 hours, and that makes shorter/smaller instances with the same difficulty level as “mythic” an extremely appealing concept.

Challenge modes will probably be interesting for some of these players, but we also know that when people talk about TBC heroic 5man difficulty levels, they’re not talking about mindless zerg/rush timed runs. They’re talking about planning, strategy, CC, improvisation, randomness and sheer insane mobs/bosses power, but the “timed” part is still an important concept in game design to keep everyone on their toes.

We know all that, and we’re doing our very best to provide the most diverse content we can for the next expansion.
Your feedback can change a lot of things, just keep providing it and we’ll be sure to recognize your needs, devs are very interested in high quality feedback, and it can go a long way in changing some priorities during the development of WoD.

Having said that, the current planned difficulty scheme for 5mans at max level is Normal, Heroic and Challenge mode.
Right off the bat, we can clearly say that WoD heroics will be much harder than MoP heroics.
Now, we’re not actually planning in making them as hard as the hardest heroics of all time, like the hardest from TBC, or GB and Stonecore from Cata, but nothing is set in stone yet, we’re still thinking about what will be the right difficulty level for anything WoD, and your continued feedback will definitely help us find that elusive sweet spot for a perfect tiered difficulty system.

We also think that we can rework a little bit the whole concept of challenge modes, right now people tend to think about them as purely timed runs, but they can be so much more than that.
I mean, the “timed part” doesn’t necessarily have to imply disregard for control and strategy; hopefully, we’ll be able to make challenge modes much more compelling to the highest skilled players out there, especially those that can’t raid but want to experience equivalent difficulty content to mythic raids in a 5man environment.
If you have any particular views on the subject, I’d love to hear what would be the “perfect challenge mode” for you, specifically in regards to reward structure and gameplay philosophy concepts.
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1 Human Priest
0
I don't really like the sound of how the challenge mode dungeons work all that much.


challenge modes are worthless anyway, same as RBG you need to be one of the fotm classes / specs for it or gtfo.

people asked for hard 5 man dungeons that req coordination and brain and not speedrunning stuff with a fotm setup and potions for useless rewards.

I like this idea for mythic dungeons.
Edited by Cutiebank on 10/12/2013 11:00 GMT
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90 Dwarf Shaman
7590
10/12/2013 10:52Posted by Taepsilum
Right off the bat, we can clearly say that WoD heroics will be much harder than MoP heroics.


Question: will it be possible to gear up for at least LFR using non-heroic max level 5 mans?
What you describe sounds like WoD heroics should be good for guild groups and such, but not for LFD... and you don't always have guildies about to run the stuff.
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1 Undead Warlock
0
10/12/2013 11:20Posted by Caidhe
Right off the bat, we can clearly say that WoD heroics will be much harder than MoP heroics.


Question: will it be possible to gear up for at least LFR using non-heroic max level 5 mans?
What you describe sounds like WoD heroics should be good for guild groups and such, but not for LFD... and you don't always have guildies about to run the stuff.
lol why ask him. He's a Blizz EU forum CM, not a Dev. He doesn't really know anything about game design, he's here to talk to us.
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90 Gnome Warlock
0
I really missed the 5man content in MoP. Progression-wise and difficulty wise for me Cata dungeons at release were the ideal source of short-length entertainment and I greatly enjoyed running them on my alts. The only place were cata went wrong (imho) was the 4.1 queue having only 2 dungeons (something that can easily be avoided nowadays with scaling) and having no alternative gearing path (solved with LFR/scenarios/timeless isle).

However I would like these "harder" dungeons to also have an LFD feature, perhaps through the advertised (non-random) group finder to be added with WoD accompanied with a daily/weekly quest. Just give it a big fat warning saying "it's gonna hurt" enter at your own risk. Also for this to work there should be alternatives to attain the same level of gear so people don't complain that they don't have alternate paths to gear their characters.

So just as an example the "hard" dungeons could drop LFR quality gear (no tier sets preferably), you could also do LFR, and badge gear of the same iLvL could be obtained "farmed" efficiently through dailies/scenarios/easy-er 5mans/timeless isle style grind. Everyone (literally) is happy.

LFR enthusiasts get to raid at no (gearing pace) penalty.
People who enjoy solo content grinds get to mix and match dailies, timeless isle type of content, scenarios and easy-er mode dungeons.
And people who want to gear (but not via LFR or trivial 5mans) also get their thing.
Moreover Challenge modes can still remain in place exactly as they work today, utilizing the same difficulty and just adding time constraints on top.

So to sum up my ideal wish-list for 5man content in WoD:
1. Heroic (or whatever you call it) difficulty of the Cata release - 4.1 level
2. iLvL scaling so that they remain interesting throughout the exapnsion
3. Rewards get "upgraded" to current tier LFR equivalents each patch
4. New dungeons added with patches enlarge the total pool of dungeons instead of forming their own tier
4. Group finder option available (not through LFD preferably)
5. Small bonus valor/rep through a daily type of quest (wouldn't mind the return of the cata system with 7/week at your own pace model)

For me this would make the ideal alt gearing/enjoying content as right now all my alts just sit around as soon as they hit 90 because my raiding apetite is fully covered with my main.
Edited by Zedicus on 10/12/2013 11:33 GMT
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90 Dwarf Shaman
7590
10/12/2013 11:27Posted by Foolz
lol why ask him. He's a Blizz EU forum CM, not a Dev. He doesn't really know anything about game design, he's here to talk to us.


Because, you know, he can ask the devs? Even being in Europe, with the help of this fancy thing called the Internet, that you might have heard of?
Edited by Caidhe on 10/12/2013 11:30 GMT
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90 Dwarf Hunter
15475
What if challenge mode dropped loot? Good lewt.
Edited by Gunshoot on 10/12/2013 11:38 GMT
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90 Human Hunter
14965
10/12/2013 11:38Posted by Gunshoot
What if challenge mode dropped loot? Good lewt.

Bah, I'd prefer hard dungeons instead of rushed dungeons.
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