<SUGGESTION> "Mythic Dungeons" in WoD

90 Draenei Shaman
11100
Personally i do not care about challenge modes because i'm not looking or care about "real" challenge in this game and transmog sets are IMO just ugly.

I have nothing against "hard"-ish 5-man content though. I once counted that i did over 200 ZA/ZG runs in cata through LFD (99% of them were solo-queued as dps) with different toons and understand that there must be few adjustments because of ...lesser-skilled players.

My only fear is just that new HC 5-mans will be like HC scenarios, unable to run through LFD. That's why i never do them.
Edited by Chira on 10/12/2013 15:27 GMT
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90 Orc Shaman
6495

This is VERY important. The corridor-like design favoured in recent heroics may be all right for LFD speed runs where nobody actually cares for anything but the valor awarded at the end. The ZA/ZG dungeons prove dungeon design doesn't have to look like that, it is perfectly possible to design large sprawling dungeons with lots of optional wings and encounters as well as alternate routes. Just make sure there's a fairly obvious route for the LFD AoE-rush crowd to take, but please have larger dungeons.

For example - instead of cutting away 75% of Sunken Temple you could have simply made LFD groups spawn after the troll mini-bosses. Entering via the actual portal would have allowed you to do the entire dungeon. Sunken Temple was a masterpiece of dungeon design and you completely slaughtered it. Disgraceful.


I completely agree with this, Cutting old long dungeons into wings is better than shrinking the whole dungeon ! Hour of Twilight / Forge of Souls dungeons were cool !


100% agree!
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Community
10/12/2013 14:08Posted by Lethora
I'm sorry but Cata heroics weren't really hard for organized groups.

You’re right, they weren't as hard as let's say, Shattered Halls HC.
Our current goal is to make WoD heroics similar to the difficulty level you had in Vortex Pinnacle heroic for example.

To be honest, I loved Stonecore, it was fun trying to make a clean run where no one would do any mistakes, it wasn’t super hard, but I’d say most bosses had very unforgiving mechanics.
That isn’t necessarily a bad thing of course, but bosses like Ozruk for example, need to have better visual cues when they have one-shot mechanics.

Good design needs to be more intuitive, it’s not really that fun to read through the full dungeon journal and memorize everything before fighting any boss, it’s much cooler when something is so well implemented that even if it’s completely unexpected you can still try to “guess” what it does and adapt, react to it on-the-spot, just like you would do with anything unexpected that happens in real life.
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Blood Elf Priest
10575
WoD heroics similar to the difficulty level you had in Vortex Pinnacle heroic for example.

before or after the nerf to heroics? I loved it when we had to use CC again. But I also know with the current LFD it could make it impossible for some groups to do the dungeons (a group having nearly no cc , etc )
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1 Human Hunter
0
We actually had to use CC in Hour of Twilight too, I don't know if people remember that. The mobs before Murozond would wreck you unless the casters were cced. Zoning in and learning that none of the classes you were grouped with could cc dragonkin made things challenging (and entertaining!)
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90 Night Elf Rogue
12125
I think they should remove 5 man dungeons all together mostly out of respect for Vanilla / TBC legacy.

5 man dungeon are a joke now. In TBC ppl would get stunned / mortral striked / bleed for 50% of their hp per 3 sec .... I get mad every time I join a 5 man group.

Just leave scenarios so sunday players have something to do.
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90 Dwarf Priest
5950
I think the main thing putting people 'off' Challenge Modes is the lack of gear from it. While i've not been able to play enough this expansion to give it a try yet, I personally love the idea of challenge modes!

But the suggestion of 'Mythic' 5 mans is pretty awesome as well. I like the idea of a non LFG 5 man that is pushed to be close to the same difficulty as Mythic raiding, to give people who don't have the time for that level of raiding a nice 5 man progression path.

By all means keep the idea of organised timed challenge mode runs in place, but I'd say that an extra, harder tier of 5 man would be pretty cool!

I used to enjoy the TBC heroics, at least until I outgeared them and could just set it to follow the tank and keep tapping the lifebloom key while watching movies on the other screen...

Cata heroics weren't really that hard, they just needed more communication than the clusterf**k of LFG provides, rather than one wipe resulting in kicking the tank or healer for being a noob...
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90 Draenei Shaman
11395
i have to admit id love HC's to be as difficult as the TBC heroics, E.G. shattered halls - or at least like the ZG heroic was on launch.
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90 Orc Warrior
10045
AFAIK there will be focus on adding dungeons with patches? I wouldn't mind these working as "mythic" level dungeons
Because I'm guessing that adding an additional ilvl tier with this suggestion would be very unlikely, because as far as I understood what Taepsilium is talking about isn't exactly what the OP is requesting

These dungeons added though patches would be very difficult and thus can also work as a catch up mechanic without having to spam through LFR, which I try my best to avoid as well
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90 Draenei Warrior
17600
10/12/2013 13:05Posted by Tree
@Zellviren. Apologies, I meant they WILL make Raid gear higher than the highest Dungeon gear.

I understood that and I agree with you, dude. My point is that if feedback is strong enough to make the designers consider changing that paradigm, then it can change. LFR is little more than free gear based on no more than the roll of a dice, so arguing that challenging dungeons should reward gear equal to it is logically compelling, even for the most hard-nosed of Blizzard's developers.

The problem isn't the idea, the problem is Hazzikostas. He's probably the most arrogant and condescending prat on the Blizzard payroll, and I suspect it's him that needs convincing.

Let me put it like this:

The hardest and most organization-dependent content should have the best rewards.
"Mythic" dungeons would be harder and require more organisation than LFR.
Therefore, "Mythic" dungeons should reward better gear than LFR.

It's completely logical. However, I accept that this would essentially strangle WoD's LFR in the crib, so I can accept said dungeon gear at least being on par with it.

I'm interested to see if there's a logically valid counter-argument here, actually.

So, we're "elitist" just because we outgear the content..? Wait, what?

I don't think that's what he meant, Velayna.

At least it's not how I read it.

If you outgear content, zerging it is only to be expected. Hopefully, however, the item squash will see a return to smaller item level jumps per tier so everything won't be rendered obsolete come 6.2's raid.

AFAIK there will be focus on adding dungeons with patches? I wouldn't mind these working as "mythic" level dungeons

Be careful.

That's not what he said (Hazzikostas again).

He said they were going to TRY and do "more of that"; nothing was promised. Remember, we're also talking about the guy who recognised the community wanted more dungeons... Then oversaw the least number of dungeons ever released in an expansion.
Edited by Zellviren on 10/12/2013 16:41 GMT
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90 Pandaren Rogue
11165
Think of having "mythic" 5 man at the start of WoD that you actually had to gear up to do. It would be absolutely fantastic.

The start of an expansion is the best part of the entire game. Leveling up, start to do some 5 mans amongst the first in your guild or even server. And then be the amongst the first to start doing 5 man heroics that is actually hard and rewarding both in terms of feeling and loot.

I want that back, give it to me! there is something special about hard 5 mans that matters.
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90 Pandaren Monk
15700
So, what has been suggested is Scaling, Harder than Heroic difficulty dungeon during first weeks of Cataclysm or TBC.
Scaling tech allows dungeon to be hard even after few patches.
Nothing against this addition to those seeking harder game.
+1
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90 Draenei Shaman
11395
Think of having "mythic" 5 man at the start of WoD that you actually had to gear up to do. It would be absolutely fantastic.

The start of an expansion is the best part of the entire game. Leveling up, start to do some 5 mans amongst the first in your guild or even server. And then be the amongst the first to start doing 5 man heroics that is actually hard and rewarding both in terms of feeling and loot.

I want that back, give it to me! there is something special about hard 5 mans that matters.


QFT
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90 Draenei Mage
13740
I support this idea 100%! I consider myself fortunate for having had a chance to play WoW back in TBC and still consider it the best expansion. I was in an awesome 10-man raid guild and spent a lot of time in heroics with guildies and the occasional pug from trade. Clearing heroics was always fun thanks to the challenge! We had to mark kill orders and CC on most trash pulls and usually aoe was out of the question! Managing to clear trash without casualties always felt rewarding. As a frost mage, I always felt important part of the group, seeing as I had a powerful CC and freezes in case something went wrong. Not to mention kiting with the help of the Frostbite talent (Blizz give it back pwease! I'll give you my annoying elemental in exchange!) These days all I do is spam Blizzard, BOORING!
And remember HC Magister's Terrace? That one last trash pack before Kael was insane! I had more wipes on that than all the bosses combined! And guess what, it was AWESOME!! The feeling of accomplishment when you got them down and finally could proceed to the boss!! Now ofc it was easier for better geared groups but my guild runs and the occasional pug were mostly in Kara or welfare (pvp) epics but to me that was part of the fun.

Nostalgic rambling but I do have a point in there! The difficulty and sense of danger was what made heroics fun back then. Not just on the bosses but the trash as well, maybe even more so than bosses!
Reason for the trash pulls' fun was the difficulty, but I would like to elaborate that it was also the variety of the trash. It wasn't just 3 pulls of packs made of 2 warriors and 2mages, the packs often had quite a lot of variety that called for different tactics and kill orders. The trash packs were often as varied as the player groups!
Today, such difficulty however does, most likely, not work in heroics. Majority of players have become accustomed to faceroll content and don't want and/or can't handle that difficulty and time investment that went to the hardest TBC heroics. So I cast my vote with a new difficulty level altogether, or a complete overhaul of the Challenge mode. I'm also not a fan of the timed runs. It could work as a separate mode, but I wouldn't want timers in the Mythic mode.
As for loot for such Mythic mode, I would not place it as a part of a progression path. Rather I believe the loot should on par with either LFR or flex (WoD normal). The amount of coordination required warrants some sort of concrete reward, and transmog items don't do the trick for everyone. After all, cosmetics are a matter of opinion. Everyone wants a carrot for their efforts! If instead of a yummy carrot, you were offered a yucky turnip instead, would you feel as compelled to work for that "reward"?

Please excuse my wall of text.
Edited by Kuunkulta on 10/12/2013 17:37 GMT
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85 Gnome Warrior
1685
Now, we’re not actually planning in making them as hard as the hardest heroics of all time, like the hardest from TBC, or GB and Stonecore from Cata, but nothing is set in stone yet, we’re still thinking about what will be the right difficulty level for anything WoD, and your continued feedback will definitely help us find that elusive sweet spot for a perfect tiered difficulty system.


At least one good news.

What loot are they going to drop? Compared to LFR ilvl?
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90 Draenei Shaman
11395
Mythic or Heroic dungeons should give LFR level loot but be pretty damn difficult.
something i've said far too often and everyone ignores.
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85 Gnome Warrior
1685
something i've said far too often and everyone ignores.


Something you should learn from. Your arguments dont get better only because you repeat them over and over.

But i think that more challenging heroic 5 mans should be a viable alternative to LFR, if people like to play 5 mans. It will actually raise the variety of things to do.

I would like to add that i would like to be able to farm rep by dungeons again. I am not interested in grinding thousands of mops instead in the open world.
Edited by Lonk on 10/12/2013 18:35 GMT
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90 Night Elf Druid
10595
10/12/2013 15:23Posted by Chira
Personally i do not care about challenge modes because i'm not looking or care about "real" challenge in this game and transmog sets are IMO just ugly.


isn't a challenge anyway, main thing is you need to be one of the good classes or specs for it (the ones which perform well at 463 and have the required utility) and then you need to stack up on pots and stuff.

remaining is some trial and error runs thats it.

I did one a week after mop came out and wasn't really interested in this kind of gameplay. doesn't belong in a PC mmo rpg imo..., that's things I'd expect from console games.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10595
10/12/2013 15:44Posted by Taepsilum
To be honest, I loved Stonecore, it was fun trying to make a clean run where no one would do any mistakes, it wasn’t super hard, but I’d say most bosses had very unforgiving mechanics.


I had multiple groups that didn't make it past the first three trash pulls with millhouse manastorm in them.

Oh good times, then the nerfs came.
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85 Gnome Warrior
1685
Stonecore was funny, but i had more fun in Grim Batol. Probably because i played a druid mainly and were able to cc two mobs alone (Dragonkin sleep and roots to a melee mob).

Even then, the cata heroics are nothing compared to what we had in tbc. I tanked shattered halls with a warrior tank, and managed the dungeon and thought "Take THIS, paladins!"..

It was great fun to use mind control as a shadow priest in shadowlabs.

Making cc usefull in 5 mans again would be fun.
Edited by Lonk on 10/12/2013 18:47 GMT
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