Flex raid = 14 people

90 Draenei Warrior
13165
Never seen people take more than 14 people to flex. How are your experiences?
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90 Human Death Knight
13815
I thought that it only increases in difficulty at 15. Prob why
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
9140
As far as I can tell damage and health scales per player, but mechanics tend to scale per five. Personally I've seen everything from 10 to 25, it's flex so eh, doesn't matter all that much.
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90 Tauren Paladin
5155
I thought that it only increases in difficulty at 15. Prob why

It actually feels easier the more people - 25 people can stack/zerg Garrosh no probs.

The reason you never see over 14 is laziness. You bring more than 10 to cover for ninja-leavers.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12740
1-15 players have 10men normal mechanics. 16-25 have 25men normal mechanics.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
11000
t actually feels easier the more people - 25 people can stack/zerg Garrosh no probs

That's because it is. Bosses health scale slower than the extra DPS from new players (at least if they are decent). Think it was Ghostcrawler that confirmed that.

In terms of fight mechanics, positive ones scale up, whilst negatives scale down.
I could understand it if they wanted to fix the group size to either maximize a positive effect or minimize a negative one.

However, there are no boss abilities that change when you go from 14 to 15 people.
The lowest change in mechanics I've noticed, is the added orb on Nourushen at 16 people (which I consider a good thing).

So it's just another myth that's spreading around. I'm just glad it's not as bad as the "you get more loot in LFR if you are AFK" myth, which some people tried to spread in 5.0.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
11000
1-15 players have 10men normal mechanics. 16-25 have 25men normal mechanics.

No, just having experienced Sha of Pride with 3 locks or Norushen with 4 orbs should tell you that this isn't true.

The breakpoints are dependent on the difference between 10 and 25 man mechanics.
Take Norushen. On 10 man it's 2 orbs, on 25 it's 5. This gives a difference of 15 players and 3 orbs between the two difficulties.

15 people divided by 3 orbs, means that for every 5 people another orb will spawn.
Since the orbs are considered a positive effect, it's every new set of 5 people (even if it's incomplete) that will create an extra set of orbs.

2 = 10 players
3 = 11 - 15 players
4 = 16 - 20 players
5 = 21+ players
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90 Human Priest
11865
Did p2 with 22 people and it was actually quite fun. The standard setup seems to be 2 tanks 3 healers and 8 dps, but I didn't notice much difference. Was easier to handle people leaving with 22 though, we were down to 13 by the time Nazgrim died :p
Edited by Florentius on 07/12/2013 21:48 GMT
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90 Draenei Warrior
13165
alright so if what you guys say is true, it be even better to have 16 instead of 14 people?

and how are we actually supposed to figure out the ratio of dps and healer for grp sizes that are in between?
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
11505
there were bigger groups when flex was new and raids were mostly scheduled through openraid, now everyone just uses the chat there since the demand exceeds the need for scheduling it

14 is pretty much optimal as it allows a few dps to leave or get kicked, if a tank leaves it doesn't matter if you started with 25 anyway, you need to spend an hour looking, or more likely, ask a guildie to help you out

alright so if what you guys say is true, it be even better to have 16 instead of 14 people?

and how are we actually supposed to figure out the ratio of dps and healer for grp sizes that are in between?


it's better to have 14, 19, 24 because the number of mechanics like prisons on sha scale with every 5 ppl.

as for the healers, you check the gear of the healers you have, ask them if they want more and make an educated guess
Edited by Aylina on 08/12/2013 02:13 GMT
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90 Blood Elf Mage
21245
Flex is easier with a bigger group, just like normal and heroic are too on 25man.

/flameward on (sorry kids, but it's true these days, accept it) <3
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
11000
t's better to have 14, 19, 24 because the number of mechanics like prisons on sha scale with every 5 ppl.

The breakpoint for getting a 3rd prison is at 18 people.

You can clearly tell that those breakpoints you mentioned won't work since there are 2 prisons as standard for 10 people, yet you are showing 3 breakpoints (meaning 3 extra prisons at 25 people) ... where is that 5th prison located?

Please tell me which mechanic has this 14 people breakpoint that everyone are so scared about.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
11000
alright so if what you guys say is true, it be even better to have 16 instead of 14 people?

What specific boss mechanic are you afraid of? Unless you tell us that, we can't say which breakpoints to aim for.

If you have trouble with too many people grabbing orbs at Norushen, I would recommend 15 people. If not, I would take at most 17 people to make Sha of Pride a little easier (since you just have 2 prisons).

For any other bosses, I would say bring as many as possible, as long as they can pull a decent amount of DPS and you have the healers to support it. I would say 3 healers plus 1 healer for every extra 5 people above 10.
Edited by Elathin on 08/12/2013 05:29 GMT
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
9140
I would say 3 healers plus 1 healer for every extra 5 people above 10.


This sorta depends on the healers and the rest of the raid though, I've done Galakras with hardly any damage going on, and I've done it with going oom halfway because the raid stands in everything but the AoE heals. Got a decent raid? Start with two for ten and then one for every five other player.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
11835
We run at 19.
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Game Designer
At BlizzCon, we'd discussed some improvements to our Flexible scaling system that would minimize the existence and impact of any real or perceived "breakpoints." Our design goal has always been for the system to be neutral with respect to group size. Specifically, you should never feel encouraged to turn away interested players whose skill/gear level matches the rest of the group's, basic role composition constraints notwithstanding. But at the same time, you shouldn't feel like you need to go out and grab warm bodies if you have a perfectly serviceable raid already assembled. Clearly we have not yet fully realized those goals.

In general, the existing healing/damage scaling slightly favors larger groups, since boss health and damage scale up more slowly than does raid throughput. To use a specific example, an 18-player raid with 12 damage-dealers will kill a boss slightly faster than a 10-player raid with 6 damage-dealers (assuming equal skill/gear between the two groups). But it is true that currently some specific abilities exhibit breakpoints, where adding an extra player causes an extra add to spawn, or an ability to strike an additional target.

To help smooth out difficulty scaling as you add or remove players from your Flexible raid, we will be implementing one of our planned Warlords changes to the scaling system ahead of schedule. In the near future, several boss abilities that target more players as the size of a Flex raid increases will use weighted randomization rather than strict breakpoints.

An example to illustrate what I mean:

Today, Sun Tenderheart's Shadow Word: Bane ability afflicts 2 targets if your raid size is between 10 and 14, but begins to hit a third target at 15.

Once our upcoming change is in place, if you have a 13-player raid, there will be a 60% chance for each cast of the ability to hit 3 targets, and a 40% chance for it to hit 2. If you add an extra player, and thus have 14, there will now be an 80% chance for 3 debuffs to go out, and a 20% chance for only 2.

In short, with respect to this particular ability, adding an extra player will always give you an average of 0.2 extra Bane debuffs. No more breakpoints!

There will be a handful of exceptions where breakpoints remain necessary. Imprison on Sha of Pride is probably the most notable such example, where you really want to pre-plan who will cover which prisons, and having a random number of targets each cast would cause frustrating unpredictability.

There's nothing wrong with 14-player groups -- 14 players is a great size for a raid. But so is 15. And 19. And 12. And 22. We just want to help make sure that good players aren't being turned away from groups because of the notion that their presence will make things harder for everyone.
Edited by Watcher on 10/12/2013 01:40 GMT
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MVP - WoW, StarCraft II
90 Worgen Druid
10550
I was personally not even aware of these breakpoints until it was mentioned at Blizzcon. I guess it was something that I should have assumed, but it didn't cross my mind how difficulty scaling even worked. My guild used to do flex runs outside raids to help us all gear up, and we just took whatever size depending on how many players wanted to go.

But I am glad to hear that this issue is going to be addressed. I can imagine it has created quite some frustrations for some players who were finding groups with random people for flex.
Edited by Danellos on 10/12/2013 01:52 GMT
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90 Pandaren Monk
15115
A pity, Sha prisons are one of the biggest reasons people go for 14.

I want to know how Malkorok void zone spawning area expands as people add, currently that seems to be 10-15 you get half the room, 16-25 the whole room.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
15250
A pity, Sha prisons are one of the biggest reasons people go for 14.


Surely 15 players can handle an extra prison though? It's not exactly a difficult mechanic, especially when the boss is only at flex difficulty. You simply get your 15th player and one other person to handle it. Players always ramble on about how they want the game to be "more challenging", yet they're that lazy over something that probably saves maybe half a minute boss-kill time tops?
Edited by Dárkseph on 10/12/2013 02:18 GMT
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Game Designer
A pity, Sha prisons are one of the biggest reasons people go for 14.

I want to know how Malkorok void zone spawning area expands as people add, currently that seems to be 10-15 you get half the room, 16-25 the whole room.

That's interesting, since currently the "magic number" for getting a third Imprison target is 18 players.

The way Malkorok Implosions should work is that with 14+ players (yes, 14) you get a fourth spawning, and then an additional one for each 3 players past that. If you're seeing a huge jump in the number of Implosions spawning based on a small change in raid size, that sounds like a bug, and I'd love to hear more so that we can investigate the issue.
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