Edited by Oldrtybstard on 31/03/11 10:13 (BST)
Enforcement of this system needs a massive overhaul as Blizzard support staff are currently allowing scamming/fraud to take place on NCSoft West levels.
When people join a PUG there is an honest expectation that looting rules will be FAIR. These basic rules should be laid down by blizzard:
1) All items WILL be rolled on
2) Main Spec takes priority over Off Spec (as defined by main used spec for the previous at least
3) Highest Roll Wins using /roll and not a variation of /roll such as /roll 1000
4) ANY changes to these rules must be explicitly stated by the master looter and failure to follow
will result in swift punishment by the GMs.
This follows legal precedent in every developed country in the world. Joining a PUG is similiar to signing a contract. That contract has basic understood rules. In our case, it is the expectation to the fair distribution of loot. WILLING failure to disclose information that might alter the decision of the contractee to sign the contract has been determined to counted as a fraudulent act. You already have rules against Fraud, ENFORCE THEM.
If your GMs show a decided unwillingness to interpret your own rules, then DO NOT GIVE THEM ROOM TO INTERPRET. You have people that are taking advantage of this and laughing as they ruin other players enjoyment of your product. They are laughing at your castrated GMs.
This recently happened to me. Upon complaining to the loot master, his comment was "I didn't state looting rules did I?" This shows ultimately his desire to defraud players joining his raid by the willing withholding of vital information. Had I known that no loot for warriors would be rolled, I WOULD NOT HAVE JOINED.
In the end, I am just glad I have a beta key for Tera starting today. Maybe they have customer service that actually does strive to protect the enjoyment of their PAYING customers.
I still don't understand how people can be that lazy or uncaring that they don't ask for loot rules before the fact, and then expect the GMs to 'intepret' something that goes against the default.
You can 'expect' all you like, but the fact is that the default when you join a pug is whatever loot system is in place, in the case of Master Looter it means the ML is 'master of the loot'. If you want to change that, do so by asking for rules to be stated. Changing the default because people PuGging are too lazy to bother asking makes it more awkward for Guild/regular raid groups, who now have to change the default back to what it should be manually.
I don't want to start a flamewar or anything but it is just amazing how people can blame Blizzard for everything.
Ask about the looting rules and get a clear answer or assume you get nothing. That's pretty much the way it works.
Edited by Nephadne on 01/04/11 21:53 (BST)
Okay, so scamming is against the rules…what exactly is a scam?
Ok so my last post was removed..............I wonder why blizz?????
There was loot rules in my raid. There was a roll. I won the roll. Guess what "wink" "wink" the lootmaster gave it to another player. That player then left super fast and then put me on ignore. The lootmaster said sorry and said open a ticket.
Blizz step in and say since its a classic accident "wink" "wink" and act of god. They can do nothing and wish me future luck. They said the lootmaster is free to give loot to who ever he wants no matter if there is loot rules. This proves they do not care. The dont follow their own policy even though the last GM said he wished he could help, but didnt want the other paladin to complain as blizz protects the rights of rude players.
Is there a secret club, that rude players and ninjas join?
Do they pay extra for this club?
Can i please join so i can be nasty to be people and get protected by Blizz?
can i post the link of the converstation?
Edit: I’m afraid I’ve had to remove the screenshot URL of the conversation in question as posting links to images or details containing specific player or representative names contravenes forum guidelines regarding “Naming and Shaming” (and I believe that may be why your previous post was removed also).
Yes, I'm sure they banned you for having someone ninja loot from you, no bad moves on your part. *eyeroll*
You do realise that the majority of posters who come through the IGCS Forum are actually intelligent and won't be swayed by such lazy implications, right? Please don't troll: if you feel you've been banned in error, the way to contest it will be in the e-mail they sent you.
Edited by Malcav on 02/04/11 10:21 (BST)
I think this could be quite simply enforced if the raid window was given a bit of an update. Raids check for player level as it is, so, if an addition could be made that would for example prompt a set of looting rules which the raid leader could then tick the appropriate box upon entering the raid instance then this would resolve these issues entirely.
Give options like
"Guild preferance>MS>OS>raid roll"
"Guild preferance>MS>OS>Guild DE"
"Other, ask for details"
This should then be visible to all the PUGs in the group. A simple checkbox system would make life a lot easier for the support staff and players as a whole. If a player fails to ask for details then it is thier own fault if they do not get loot. If one of the other options is checked and not adhered to then it should be punished. The simplest answer is always the best one when it comes to things like this. If players can't be trusted then take away the ability for them to lie. This would also be good for the raid finder, perhaps even as a searchable criteria.
This system could be expanded on to allow for preference for a single or multiple items to be excluded from the general roll etc. It just takes a bit of thought and some more feedback from players and this issue can become a thing of the past.
Further restrictions could be placed removing the possibility for a loot master in a group with more than "X" number of players not in the same guild wherby a need/greed roll could be propted when loot drops based on what spec a PUG ticked as thier main spec for the purposes of that specific raid. There are any number of server enforced rules that could be applied to raids, these are just a few suggestions that I feel could work.
Thanks for reading and feel free to comment and dispute or add to my suggestions as you wish guys.
Edited by Stormbreaker on 15/04/11 10:07 (BST)
Glodie; jog on............
Here is a copy of the letter Blizz sent me on the matter of the so called ninja looter.
Thank you for contacting WoW Concerns.
I'm sorry to hear that you had some Concerns with a recent loot situation. With that in mind i've gone over the details in order to provide you with some further clarification on the matter.
The Master Looter did indeed make an error in giving the loot that you won to another player.
However once this item was handed over to the player in question it became the property of that character. Because of this we cannot take the item away from this person regardless as to whether they chose to put you on ignore and leave the group, the item is still rightfully now theirs because it was given to them by the person that ran the group at the time. The Master Looter has the final say over matters related to the raid, providing there is no malicious intent, accidentally assigning the loot to someone other than the winner is their mistake to make.
This is was not the result of any scam, or harmful behaviour. The person that was mis-assigned the loot was not behaving incorrectly because mistake or no the master looter gave it to them, as soon as the trade was complete the item became theirs and made them free to do with it what they will.
I read over the most recent conversation you had with Game Master ******** regarding compensation and I can definitely see how you might feel that you are entitled to some. Unfortunately this is something that we do not provide, regardless of whether you see the rules as flawed or perpetuating a distinct lack of protection, this is a simple case of human error. The Master Looter made a mistake, the item went to the wrong person and that person chose to keep it, and that is essentially all there is to it as far as the situation goes. As such, i'm sorry to say that we will not be able to assist in reversing the situation or providing you with any form of compensation where this is concerned.
Thank you for taking the time to read this email. Don't forget, if you have any other issues or queries that cannot be dealt with through an in-game ticket then please do not hesitate to contact us further and we will be more than happy to assist further.
Senior Game Master
Blizzard Entertainment Europe
I have removed all names, so I shouldnt get banned again this time.
However Blizz really need to change their policy as this is a massive loop hole, and does not even begin to consider other forms of communication such as MSN, Vent, Team Speak, Phone, Smoke signals etc etc
How many other players get loot they didnt win "wink, wink" by accident?
It doesnt matter if they are loot rules, they mean nothing.
People will always find ways around systems. If you make the system to restrictive, then it impacts on gameplay.
The only way to ensure this doesnt happen is to join a raiding guild if you want to raid or just lead the raid yourself and ensure that the Master looter is one your trust.
Some easy steps to make it all clear; The ML is given a box in the raid tab which is named "Loot Rules" where he may manually type in the set loot rules for that raid which is then announced to the raid much like the GMotD, and also is announced in an easy-to-see fashion for any new player joining the raid.
Also make sure the loot rules once written are set in stone unless the ML is changed, or the majority of members in the raid takes a vote that it should be modified(via a similar system to the current vote kick or ready check).
To prevent the MLs from co-ordinating outside of WoW to make an "accident", perhaps you should either A) Make it so that the raidleader has to approve the item transfere, B) Add an additional "are you sure" window with a 10 second timer which display the name of the intended target, or C) Give members of the raid 10 seconds to object to an item transfere in progress, with added mechanic preventing abuse.
And I have to agree with the blue, I've seen the ML system in use since vanilla raiding and it has always worked flawlessly when in a non-PuG situation, so my advice would be to avoid PuG raiding and similar with people you do not know or with an ML that is known on the realm for favoring friends when looting, a few questions to friends and guildies usually yield alot of information about bad MLs and players behaving badly.
You have very little say in a PuG as the PuG is in the sole control of the leader and the loot by the ML, in a guild group or with friends you can still object and discuss certain disagreements after the raid and/or looting process(and friends are usually more inclined to trade you the loot if it's agreed that the loot became theirs by accident or by a misunderstanding).
85 Human Mage
Good evening everyone!
I have to say that my english level dont help me to say what i got exactly in my mind but i ll try.
I was looking to do BoT trash run on my shadowpriest, i saw a trade spam "LFM BoT..." and i join the pug, after 20 min or so we were ready to go. In those 20 min ppl was asking about loot rules and the answer was the same from leader "MS-OS-RR".
We start clearing trash and at the second group of mobs the cloth wirst dps droped.
i roll 56 actually i was the only one who rolled as we didnt have any other clothier dps there, i still remember my face i was so exiting couldnt wait to equi... then sudendly the leader who was the loot master also took the wirst and left from raid without saying anything, i wisp him "why u did that mate" got no replay and i open a ticket about this.
The ninja's acount suspended (dunno for how log) and the item removed from him i feel better now even if i didnt get my drop from blizz, the only reason i post here is to say to blizz employers or game masters that justice and fair feeling is comming when all things are good, i think i did something good cause that guy perhaps ninja many others after me aswell and making lots of ppl unhappy about wow so i deserve that wirst even if i dont care anymore. i hope in the future blizz fix this and gives the drops from ninja's to the owners.
ps. thank god blizzard removed raid LFG system via servers... if those happend at your server imagine what a mess with a pug from several servers.
Hwn PuG raiding i do two things...
A: Post the following if there is loot that i want
Please confirm these loot rules (RAID LEADER) Main spec(as in the one you have preformed with in the fight) over off-specs over disenchant. Highest roll wins, if rolls are tied the people tied reroll till highest. BoE items will be raid rolled with (1-25)(1-10) on a list posted in raid chat before the roll. please confirm with ("yes i confirm the rules")
B: Consider any loot i actually get as a pure bonus.
That way i do not need to worry about ninjas, thus my gaming experience is a lot better.
I am against ninja looters and I don't really know how to stop them, but I got ideas that could work.
1. If the item is class based (e.g. a Warrior, paladin specific item) has dropped, make it so only the people who are that class can actually greed or need on it, if everyone passes on it then it can be looted by anyone. If it is master looter though, then make it so if the master looter isn't the required class, he can't loot it unless anyone from that class has rolled at least once after the drop. Im not sure how that would work or if it would work but... I tried.
But ninja looters who take any item and trade it with guildies that didn't get the higher roll and a randomer got the highest roll then yes that is a problem, but what I can't stand though is when you are kicked out for pointing it out, especially when most of the raid is actually all in the same guild...
It is a problem, but it is one of those problems that are sort of unsolvable for blizzard and only the players can really solve it (or gms if they're feeling up to it, go get em boys).
SO really we have to live with it
Edited by Wildfox on 18/05/11 20:43 (BST)
but the raid rules are always the same - you roll on the item you need. you don't have to ask about the loot system. 'master loot' system means people roll and ML gives the item to the winner.
so if the RL/ML doesn't say "Everyone can roll on everything" it means he can ninja all items and it will be allowed? so we (raid members) have to force the RL/ML to write the magical sentence "everyone can roll on everything" so only then you can do something? otherwise they can ninja?
I have to make him write "everyone can roll on everything" or can I ask "how is the loot system? does everyone can roll on everything?" - if he answers 'yes' - will it be ok? or he has to write the whole 'sentence' ? ... it may be a stupid question, but I just want to know, so no one will tell me later "the rl/ml has to write THE WHOLE SENTENCE! an answer 'yes' doesn't count!'
and what if rl/ml will say (after ninjaing) about the lootsystem question - "this 'yes' wasn't to you, it was an answer to prevorious/other question" and what then?
"Everyone can roll on everything"
He won't say that because then for example warriors will roll on magical items (to sell the item or to disenchant. everyone is everyone), mages will roll on bows etc. This sentence isn't gonna work.
Every time you join a raid group you are agreeing to the rules that are set up by the raid leader, both regarding the raid groups goals and loot distribution, and it is your responsibility to ask & confirm what they are
if the RL/ML doesn't say anything about loot system, just 'we use ml system' it means they can ninja everything?
How? GM said he can't do anything, Blizz support (from webform) said "ask GM for a help, we can't help you". I can't even send the screenshoots to GM as a proof.
No. Master loot means that the ML is literally the Master of the Loot, they effectively own any items that fall into the loot threshold and can decide where it goes entirely at their discretion.
As explained in this thread "everyone can roll on everything" is not a clear loot rule. It needs to be established that items will be rolled on, that there's no exceptions (or what they are) and how the winner of the roll is determined.
It means they can decide who items go to yes
If they can help they will, however you have to help them help you by making sure rules on looting are set in the raid chat at the start of the raid. Screenshots don't matter, who won the role is irrelevant if there is no clear loot agreement in place.
Edited by Wildfox on 18/05/11 22:10 (BST)
Hey, thanks for the answer!
RL/ML at the start has to describe loot on every one item? there's 100 or even more in the whole raid. how he can describe every roll? Nephadne said "and not "Everyone can roll on <specific item xyz>""
but he didn't write "mages can't roll on items with spirit' or 'only priests can roll on spirit' either. (in my case)
so for example: I'm a ML and there's a big conversation in the raid channel. I write "all loot goes to me" but no one notices that, they are writing stuff and they miss my sentence - it means I can ninja everything and they can't do anything? lol
I joined now another pug and asked three times about loot system, then the RL answered 'master loot'. I asked how it would work but he didn't answer. no one will describe the whole rules etc. if you're unlucky you just meet a ninja, that's all.
I think the best option is to join a guild and raid with guild members...
(and what about other my questions mentioned in prevorious post?)
Hey, thanks for the answer!that there's no exceptions (or what they are) and how the winner of the roll is determined.
No, you can state a rule that applies to all items, as long as you make the "all items" part clear. You can then state any exceptions to that if you wish, which may be as specific as individual items that might drop, or a group of items.
It means they can decide who items go to yes
Not necessarily, if you have said something very clearly earlier and then cleverly hide that statement, the GM might decide that the second statement doesn't count since you tried to hide it, or that the more well defined of the two would be in force. If you didn't say something earlier, then what you just tried to hide is literally the default rules for master looter, so you would have no reason to say it at all.
making sure rules on looting are set in the raid chat at the start of the raid.
Indeed, or insist that the rules are explained. If the raid leader refuses, explain in raid chat why you want the rules explained - this usually gets a few heads turned and agreeing with you. Most master looters don't want to risk the raid because they can't be bothered responding.
I'll probably miss a few, but I'll try:
- If you state the rules and the master looter agrees to them, this usually carries the same force as if the master looter stated the rules themselves. Keep in mind however, that the master looter's reply can not be ambiguous in any way, and it must be clear that any response is to you, and not to some other, unrelated question (a "yes" after three successive questions by different people will not be considered enough, regardless of order). If the raid leader can say later that the "yes" was meant for someone else and it is at all plausible that that is true, the rules are not in force.
- "Everyone can roll on everything" is indeed not a good idea, since this technically allows literally that to happen - mages rolling on plate, rogues rolling on spell power daggers, hunters rolling on... whatever hunters don't usually roll on. And if they win the roll and don't get the item, they can ticket it. In theory anyway; I would imagine some game masters would ignore such silliness, but it's not worth gambling over.
- The raid leader or master looter has to state how they will master loot, and everything has to be clearly stated. There are no "usual rules", nothing is implied - everything has to be explicit. Simply saying that master looter will be in effect (e.g. "we will use ml system") carries no weight.
Also, you didn't ask it, but it might be interesting to know: there are no shenanigans involving switching around raid leader/master looter. That used to be a problem under the initial policy, but current policy is that whatever either the master looter or the raid leader says goes, and any rules stated by one will be inherited along with the position should it pass to someone else. If the raid is completely reformed, though, the rules are off.
Edited by Wildfox on 18/05/11 22:51 (BST)
Hey, thanks for the answer!
so I will make pugs and if people don't ask me about the lootsystem (people never asks, cause they know how ML works) I will take all items. it's gonna be their fault, because they didn't ask me about loot rules. fair enough.
and then hunters will roll on mage staffs, mages will roll on bows, warriors on wands etc..
And I'm 100% sure that RL won't write looooooooooooong post "Mages can't roll on bows, two handed swords... etc etc, Hunters can't roll on ....." etc.
how" as I mentioned above - he would have to spend like 1h for writing all rules. And people don't even know that they have to say the loot rules/ask for the loot rules. Yeah, ml can ninja because I didn't ask about clear statement about the loot rules. yeah it was my fault. God... why the thief is privileged? it should be the other way - if ML doesn't say anything about loot rules - he should give item to the winner who rollled highest. it should be the ML responsibility to say the loot rules. otherwise he can easily steal the items.
and how about PvP items? how can the ML decide who can roll on pvp and who can't ?
In my case (which u read in another thread) I wanted to roll on PvP boots for "MAGES/PRIESTS/WARLOCKS" (it was WRITTEN on it), but leader gave it to the priest and said "you don't need spirit". I do need spirit, and I can even reforge it. And why HE has to decide if I need the spirit or no? I know better what I need. On the item was wrote "item for mages, priests, warlocks" so I should roll for it!! He breaks the rules which Blizzard has given. But Blizz doesn't want to help me. (now guess why realms have low population...)