Topic 25-man raid progress display
Edited by Duffinci on 11/04/11 23:11 (BST)
Sheepy has a fancy new bar system for showing progress of 10 mans but I'm still working on making the old system work on the new forums as best I can for now.
The issues, for those who weren't aware, are that the new forum doesn't have the [pre] tags and is now fixed width. The [pre] tags used fixed character width font and allowed tab characters which meant data could be easily arranged in columns. Without this you just get a messy string of characters that is very hard to read. The width of the forums may be an issue in trying to fit all instances on one line. There is enough room for all the Wrath ones but we may well have more in cata.
Anyway, I have a rough tool that knows the width of every character of the standard font size used on the forum (12pt Arial) and will will gaps with underscores to make columns. It's not as neat but it does the job. For example, below is the 25 man list at the point the old forum was locked.
I'm gonna keep playing about and looking at what others are doing but would appreciate any comment, suggestions or ideas now so I can get this in place ASAP, preferably before we all start killing stuff.
Guild name _____________ T10 _______T9_______T8 ________T7 _____Dragons
The Logical Cube (A) ______[IC] _______ [AC] _____ [Uld] ______ [Naxx]___[HOMS:TV]
Behemoth (A) ___________ [IC 11:12]___[AC 4:5]___[Uld] ______ [Naxx]___[hOMS:TV]
Tabula Rasa (A) __________[IC 11:12]___[AC 4:5]___[Uld 8:13]___[Naxx]___[hOMS:TV]
The DMZ (A) _____________[IC 11:12]___[AC 3:5]___[Uld 5:13]___[Naxx]___[hOMS:TV]
Colossus _______________[IC 11:12]___[AC 4:5]___[Uld 1:0]____ _______[h]
Dead End (A) ____________[IC 10:12]___[AC 4:5]___ __________ _______[h]
Ethereals (A) ____________ [IC 9:12]____[AC 4:5]___[Uld 5:13]___[Naxx]___[hOMS:TV]
Legend of the Alliance (A)___[IC 9:12]____[AC 4:5]___[Uld 0:13]___[Naxx]___[hOMS:TV]
After Hours (A) ___________[IC 9:12]____[AC 3:5]___[Uld 2:13]___[Naxx]___[hOMS:TV]
Shadowstorm (H)_________[IC 9:12]____[AC 2:5]___[Uld 0:13]___[Naxx]___[hOMS:TV]
Demise (A)______________[IC 6:12]_____________ __________ _______
Concilium (A) ____________[IC 4:12]____[AC 2:5]___[Uld 0:13]___[Naxx]___[OMS:TV]
Sinister (A) ______________[IC 0:11]____[AC 0:5]___[Uld 2:13]___[Naxx]___[hOMS:TV]
Iron Wardens (A) _________ [IC 0:10]____[AC 0:5]___[Uld 1:12]___[Naxx]___[OMS]
Hammerheart (A) _________[IC 0:9]_____[AC 2:5]___[Uld 3:13]___[Naxx]___[OMS:TV]
Aeon (H)________________[IC 0:7]_____[AC 0:5]___[Uld 2:13]___[Naxx]___[OMS:TV]
So, after playing with that tool and with the bar chart format thing the second post of the progress thread looks like the below. I've checked this on the major browsers and it's aligned to within 1 pixel in Chrome, Firefox, Opera and Safari but IE seems to have it out by a few for some reason (well, it'll be the screwed up way IE displays fonts). Since IE is the number 1 browser for downloading a better browser I'm kinda ok with that though interested in knowing if people are finding it an issue when they're skiving at work or the like. Have also seen it a bit weird in Chrome on my netbook but the screen on that is tiny.
So if it's aligned for you then great, if not then I might be able to do something about it but need to know what the issue is.
I've also removed Baradin Hold cos it doesn't have a heroic mode and Argaloth seems to be something of a push-over.
# ······· Guild name ·····················T11······················· T10
1 ······A - The Logical Cube···········░░░░░░░░░░░░··▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓
2 ······A - Behemoth·····················░░░░░░░░░░░░··▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▒▒
3 ······A - Tabula Rasa ·················░░░░░░░░░░░░··▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▒▒
4 ······A - The DMZ·······················░░░░░░░░░░░░··▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▒▒
5 ······A - Colossus······················░░░░░░░░░░░░··▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▒▒
6 ······A - Dead End ·····················░░░░░░░░░░░░··▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▒▒▒
7 ······A - Ethereals······················░░░░░░░░░░░░··▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▒▒▒▒
8 ······A - Legend of the Alliance·····░░░░░░░░░░░░··▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▒▒▒▒
9 ······A - After Hours····················░░░░░░░░░░░░··▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▒▒▒▒
10·····H - Shadowstorm ···············░░░░░░░░░░░░··▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▒▒▒▒
11·····A - Demise ······················· ░░░░░░░░░░░░··▓▓▓▓▓▓▒▒▒▒▒▒░
12·····A - Concilium ···················· ░░░░░░░░░░░░··▓▓▓▓▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒░
13·····A - Sinister·························░░░░░░░░░░░░··▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒░
14·····A - Iron Wardens·················░░░░░░░░░░░░··▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒░░░
15·····A - Hammerheart················░░░░░░░░░░░░··▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒░░░░
16·····H - Aeon····························░░░░░░░░░░░░··▒▒▒▒▒▒▒░░░░░░
# ······· Guild name ·····················T11 ·······················································T10
1 ······A - The Logical Cube···········[0:0]·····[BD 0:0]·····[BoT 0:0]·····[TFW 0:0]·····[13:13]
2 ······A - Behemoth·····················[0:0]·····[BD 0:0]·····[BoT 0:0]·····[TFW 0:0]·····[11:13]
3 ······A - Tabula Rasa ·················[0:0]·····[BD 0:0]·····[BoT 0:0]·····[TFW 0:0]·····[11:13]
4 ······A - The DMZ·······················[0:0]·····[BD 0:0]·····[BoT 0:0]·····[TFW 0:0]·····[11:13]
5 ······A - Colossus······················[0:0]·····[BD 0:0]·····[BoT 0:0]·····[TFW 0:0]·····[11:13]
6 ······A - Dead End ·····················[0:0]·····[BD 0:0]·····[BoT 0:0]·····[TFW 0:0]·····[10:13]
7 ······A - Ethereals······················[0:0]·····[BD 0:0]·····[BoT 0:0]·····[TFW 0:0]·····[9:13]
8 ······A - Legend of the Alliance·····[0:0]·····[BD 0:0]·····[BoT 0:0]·····[TFW 0:0]·····[9:13]
9 ······A - After Hours····················[0:0]·····[BD 0:0]·····[BoT 0:0]·····[TFW 0:0]·····[9:13]
10·····H - Shadowstorm ···············[0:0]·····[BD 0:0]·····[BoT 0:0]·····[TFW 0:0]·····[9:13]
11·····A - Demise ······················· [0:0]·····[BD 0:0]·····[BoT 0:0]·····[TFW 0:0]·····[6:12]
12·····A - Concilium ···················· [0:0]·····[BD 0:0]·····[BoT 0:0]·····[TFW 0:0]·····[4:12]
13·····A - Sinister·························[0:0]·····[BD 0:0]·····[BoT 0:0]·····[TFW 0:0]·····[0:12]
14·····A - Iron Wardens·················[0:0]·····[BD 0:0]·····[BoT 0:0]·····[TFW 0:0]·····[0:10]
15·····A - Hammerheart················[0:0]·····[BD 0:0]·····[BoT 0:0]·····[TFW 0:0]·····[0:9]
16·····H - Aeon····························[0:0]·····[BD 0:0]·····[BoT 0:0]·····[TFW 0:0]·····[0:7]
Edited by Duffinci on 20/12/10 23:47 (GMT)
I realise I'm talking to myself here but it beats spam-bumping.
Noticed that [pre] has been implemented but with the much more restrictive (but much more attractive) forum format it doesn't allow for much data on each line. I'll stick using the point separated format as in the post above.
where were my bracers :< Oh thats right jollz took them! I'm gonna not gear next time :P
Please lets keep the post count down in the progress threads.
Yup, already removed as per above.
Will drop reference of it from the OP of the progress thread.
Agreed, but from what I can see of the character map they are the best option. However, given they are a little squint-inducing I've wanted to keep the old format as well.
Here's a possible alternative. I've stared at the 3 shaded block one so much it's fairly clear to me now so anyone with an opinion please do throw it out here and I'll see what I can do.
Essentially we're working with the Arial character set which you can review in full by going into the Character Map application you get with Windows.
The shade tiles are U+2591 to 2593.
The ones below are:
Light Shade (2591) Normal kill
Box Drawings Double Horizontal (2550) No kill
1 ······A - The Logical Cube···········░░░═════════··█████████████
2 ······A - Colossus······················░═══════════··███████████░░
3 ······A - Behemoth·····················════════════··███████████░░
4 ······A - Tabula Rasa ·················════════════··███████████░░
5 ······A - The DMZ·······················════════════··███████████░░
6 ······A - Dead End ·····················════════════··██████████░░░
7 ······A - Ethereals······················════════════··█████████░░░░
8 ······A - Legend of the Alliance·····════════════··█████████░░░░
9 ······A - After Hours····················════════════··█████████░░░░
10·····H - Shadowstorm ···············════════════··█████████░░░░
11·····A - Demise ······················· ════════════··██████░░░░░░═
12·····A - Concilium ···················· ════════════··████░░░░░░░░═
13·····A - Sinister·························════════════··░░░░░░░░░░░░═
14·····A - Iron Wardens·················════════════··░░░░░░░░░░═══
15·····A - Hammerheart················════════════··░░░░░░░░░════
16·····H - Aeon····························════════════··░░░░░░░══════
Resurrecting this thread rather than start a new one.
The 'issue' of being able to access 25 man heroic modes from 10 man clears of normal modes doesn't sit well with me for a 25 man progress thread. Now I want to state right from the outset, I have no vested interest or favour towards any guild on this server other than my own and for this discussion that has no bearing. I do want to make sure I do the best by the progress thread however and have a desire to do the right thing on it. I also have no issue with TLC accessing 25 man heroic bosses through 10 man clears. It's valid and fine to do as it is there in the game to do so. More power to them.
However, where I come unstuck is with the system for representing guild 25 man progress ranks on this forum. The standard has become that (for want of a better explanation) a heroic kill is an order of magnitude better than a normal mode kill; and the next tier is again one higher. So you get:
However, this indicates a linearity of progression. You don't count to 10 without first passing through numbers 1 to 9. This is only for 25 mans, not "game content" as a whole. Obviously TLC have cleared BoT on normal and so have access to heroic. But the 25 man progress thread is just that and this leap-frogging seems uncomfortable to me. Taken to its extreme you could get a guild that has cleared all 10 man content on normal and nothing on 25s suddenly topping the charts with a single kill. On the other hand, is it the same as when we start a new tier of content?
So, it's all down to the rank order. The early kill list and the breakdowns represent well enough the progress (the bar chart may misrepresent in edge cases). That's the problem as I see it but offer it up to the realm to debate whether it is a problem at all and if so how best to address it.
I could for example count heroic kills as normal until that instance is cleared on 25 man. Or not count it at all. Or a number of other possibilities that may be better or worse.
Again, I would like to point out that I have no real care who comes out on top as a result of any discussion only that the result seems to be the right one. I will not pretend that the issue is not important however. Never mind epeen length, server rank has an appreciable impact on quantity and quality of applications.
I will also try to ignore and highlight any fallacious arguments such as appeals to widespread belief, arguments from authority or any ad hominem attacks. I will go where the sound logical arguments take me, be that towards change of the system or of my mind.
That said, if nobody replies to this thread (as before) then I'll just do what I think best and not care what anyone says later as they had the chance to wade in right here.
Edited by Fale on 24/01/11 01:37 (GMT)
I'm sure you can guess where i stand on this matter Duff lol.
EDIT:- Personally, i dont see why it should be up to you Duff to decide who "sits at the top" of the Eonar 25 man raiding progress.
As it stands Colossus is on 11/12 25 man normal
TLC is on 8/12 25 man normal, 1/13 heroic.
It should be up to other people to decide what they see to be "better", not you. You're more than welcome to have TLC as no.1 on the realm, no doubt, according to wowprogress/guildox etc.. they are. Thats just the way it goes.
It's in my opinion, that the right way to do something is to do everything in a instance, be it 10 or 25 man, on normal mode first on that raid size, and to then move onto doing heroic modes. Obviously this is a view that i do not share with TLC's "officers". Thats how it is.
Tell that to guilds like paragon ensidia who cleared it on 10 man 1st before they went to 25 man so they can unlock heroic you all going to QQ to them bout it dont blame the players blame blizzard they removed the 25 man and 10 man progression and made it one so the matter of the fact neigther of the guilds are top angered is.
Whilst I hold no grudge against those guilds that choose to go down that progression route for any reason, be it wanting to get fast progression, or just unable to get the number to raid at the time, to me Personally it would feel like I was cheating the system, and this is where the problem lies with the 10/25 man same lockout ID.
The whole 10 man normal clears that open 25 heroic mode is only going to confuse the the "progression thread" as long as we have 2 people working on it as it stands now, and as some people like to know who has cleared what in different raid sizes. would it not be possible to have at the end of each bar somthing like
[10/11 normal] [2 /12 Heroic] [12/23 total]
This would be pretty self explanitary ie
Guild x has killed 10 of 11 bosses in normal mode, 2 of 12 bosses in heroic mode, and a total of 12 of 23 from both normal and heroic mode, of course this would have to be limited to either 10 man, or 25 man raid, and not a combined.
Edited by Sheepy on 24/01/11 11:20 (GMT)
He is using Normal:Heroic as it always was used in progress threads.
As far as I understand, the topic is whining about how a guild can clear everything on 10man normal and shoot up on progress with 25man heroics, which is not something Duff and I can change.
Well, yeah, but while I will obviously dismiss your opinion as a biased preference that doesn't mean I will dismiss any valid argument as to why you feel that way. 'Valid' obviously not being "cos it's better for me" etc.
I agree and as such want to open it up to debate. This isn't a matter of how people choose to progress, it's a matter of how we choose to report it in the 25 man progress thread. As such I am involved in the debate and impacted by the decision.
Yes, it is something that people can make their own mind up on but we all know that people take the path of least resistance and while they might well think that on current standings Colossus have more progression it's easier to just look at who has a number "1" next to their name.
Again, lets not confuse the issue. There's one of how to progress and one of how to report that progress. I have no problems with how TLC have chosen to progress, my concern is purely in the reporting of it.
Good point re Angered, it highlights the fact that we're talking about 25 man progress. We could reopen the debate about segregation of 10 and 25 but I think time has shown that the reasons for splitting them were quite valid.
Well, that information is available to people in the model we have. the model that was proposed (merging 10 & 25 progress) would actually remove this ability to see separate progress. The discussions we had were twofold: Should we segregate 10 and 25s and should we separate threads. The result was yes on both counts. Both Sheepy and I were prepared to change if valid reason were given but it wasn't.
I think what you are proposing is that 10 and 25 man progress is still segregated but in a single thread. This would save clicking and make comparison easier but wouldn't increase the sum of information available. It would also increase the workload on one person as well as hit more issues of post count and character count per post (format etc). Is the gain worth the cost?
Normal and heroic tallies are separate already:
# ······· Guild name ·······················T11 ···· ············· ············· ···············T10
1 ······A - The Logical Cube···········[1:9] ······[BD 6]·····[BoT 1:2]·····[TFW 1]·····[13:13]
2 ······A - Colossus······················[0:11]·····[BD 5]·····[BoT 4] ······ [TFW 2]·····[11:13]
This shows both normal and heroic progress per tier and per instance. What it doesn't show is progress in 10 man, you need the other thread for that. This part of the reporting I feel is fair and accurate. The issue for me is which progress is of more value and should be above the other?
A couple of examples I have in mind:
Someone with [ICC 1:2] (Marrowgar & Lootship normal + Lootship heroic) versus someone with [ICC 0:11] (working on LK normal, no heroic kills). Which is 'better'?
Someone with [BoT 0:4] (normal clear, no heroic) versus someone with [BoT 4:0] (heroic clear, never bothered with normal 25 man). Which is 'better'?
To my mind these illustrate opposite extremes of the issue and with opposite 'sensible' solutions.
Forum regulars seem unwilling to chip in with style and format collaboration as my talking to myself earlier in this thread is testament. that aside I don't see how this is a solution. What problem are you addressing here, the one proposed or that you still don't like that I'm reporting 25 man progress?
85 Human Paladin
They are the top 10 guild, TLC are the top 25 guild. The two aren't that comparable really.
Edited by Zexymits on 25/01/11 18:14 (GMT)
A casual's point of view:
If you have cleared a boss on heroic mode, doesn't it mean you have cleared it on normal as well? If someone clears Stonecore (for example) on heroic without having cleared it on normal first, they get both achievements. I did notice, however, that this didn't work for ICC though (at one point I had 10/12 cleared on hc on my mage with just 4/12 cleared on normal).
On your example of one guild having additively less bosses down (hc and normal) but more hard modes should be put on top. So a [1:0] would be above [0:12] in my book, strictly because it is considered (and accepted?) that hard modes are "superior" in importance than normal modes.
To bring another example, and further reinforce my previous, consider T12, and a guild that formed during that wasn't around during T11. Let's say that this guild has downed 5 bosses of T12, and none of T11, and another guild has done just 2 bosses of T12 and cleared all of T11. In your format, wouldn't the former guild be above the latter, even though they have additively defeated less bosses? Hard modes could be considered as T11,5.
- edited for corrections and clarifications.
Your example of tier by tier is reasonable to a point and it is indeed the way it has previously worked (and I would expect it to continue to work). That said, when a new tier of content comes out these days, the previous tier is somewhat trivialised by gear, both that from the new tier and the expanded set of badge gear. So I don't think it is a direct comparison.
Similarly, you are correct that a heroic instance clear counts for both heroic and normal but that's different from a boss kill. I would not suggest that someone killing boss1 of an instance on heroic mode doesn't essentially get credit for boss1 on normal mode as well (if they hadn't previously recorded that kill). However, that's not what we're saying. We're putting someone who has killed boss1 of heroic mode above someone that has killed all the bosses on normal. I for one felt that LK normal was harder than Marrowgar heroic, and a world of difference from lootship heroic.
I'm using ICC as an example because I (well most of us) have greater experience of it than T11. The same would be true of Najentus, Supremus, Akama in comparison to Illidan - were those bosses to have had hard modes (and Vanilla examples abound).
In this discussion we could bring in the comparative difficulties of clearing an instance in 10 man versus doing the first boss in 25 man heroic. But 10/25 comparison is hard enough at the best of times but all the more so at the start of an expansion.
Meh, academic discussion is academic. That is until it happens again and anyone cba to have an opinion on it.
No way u can put like a seperate one for Normal and Heroic instances, and then a "total" one?
Or is that going into it a bit too much, maybe have some bit showing what bosses were killed when? Might be interesting for people ( x-relam ) looking here to see who killed what boss when and how that stood in the whole progress of the realm business.
Anything that makes Colossus look good will do Duff!!! :P
Looks cool tho, apart from the blue line not going up atm /sigh wtb 3% more dps :P