Blizzard Nerfs Paragons 2.4.1

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Nyar, the questions were for MunQ since he is actually playing the game and the paragon cap would affect him, not you.
You seem to always intercept other people conversations to troll it, to get little more close to the 10 000 post award.

If your brain can comprehend the numbers then you should know that Diablo is played by a lot more people that those 1 142 who you are so eager to defend.

You defend the gameplay that suits for those 1 142 people worldwide, forgetting that there are millions of other players who do not play so much!

In your world, Diablo is developed for these 1 142 players? Not for millions who bought the game?

Please stop trolling, but I know you will not because that is what trolls do.
22/03/2016 07:00Posted by Shark
Nyar, the questions were for MunQ since he is actually playing the game and the paragon cap would affect him, not you.
You seem to always intercept other people conversations to troll it, to get little more close to the 10 000 post award.

If your brain can comprehend the numbers then you should know that Diablo is played by a lot more people that those 1 142 who you are so eager to defend.

You defend the gameplay that suits for those 1 142 people worldwide, forgetting that there are millions of other players who do not play so much!

In your world, Diablo is developed for these 1 142 players? Not for millions who bought the game?

Please stop trolling, but I know you will not because that is what trolls do.


You wanted to have a private conversation with MunQ in a public forum? OK... You got it all wrong, anyway, please read my post again and pay attention, because what you say about me defending 1142 players is totally unreasonable. I even wrote : "But 3 days is by no means any valid criterion for such things. In this case, it is not about how many players can or cannot do it, it is about the general objectives of the game."

Also, stop saying "troll" whenever you can't respond with reasonable arguments.

You said that players stop playing because they can't catch up with others that reach too high paragons. How do you suppose that a paragon cap will motivate these players to keep playing?
I think its a step in the right direction.. Its ridiculous how easy it is to get paragons, especially in the low lvls.. They should make it much harder to gain paragons.. make the XP gap between lvls much much bigger..
22/03/2016 07:12Posted by NYARLATHOTEP
You wanted to have a private conversation with MunQ in a public forum? OK... You got it all wrong, anyway, please read my post again and pay attention, because what you say about me defending 1142 players is totally unreasonable. I even wrote : "But 3 days is by no means any valid criterion for such things. In this case, it is not about how many players can or cannot do it, it is about the general objectives of the game."

Well, again and again... he is actually playing the game, knows the endgame and competition, a paragon cap would affect him. You don't know these things.

22/03/2016 07:12Posted by NYARLATHOTEP
Also, stop saying "troll" whenever you can't respond with reasonable arguments.

If you ask what would be the motivation for those 1 142 players who reach 1500 in 3 days, completely disregarding the fact that there are millions of more players then you are a troll!

22/03/2016 06:18Posted by NYARLATHOTEP
Capping paragons would mean
* There is no motive to keep playing, if you know that your progress is capped
* There is no meaning to endless Grift progress
* People that play more time than others have no guaranteed way to be better and feel their effort is rewarded.

Most players will not reach the gap but they are close (difference between them and the cap is much, much smaller than 3000+ paragons today), some players hit the cap at the end of season (3 months), small percent of players will hit the cap much sooner and 1142 players will hit the cap in 3 days.

If you love paragon so much that you only play this game for paragon, there will be NON-season that would be uncapped (because there is no reset).

There would be 2 game modes:
1. Non-season, uncapped for everyone who play this game only for paragon
2. Season, competitive game mode where paragon is capped.

Capping paragon would also break current 4 man meta but you would not know this becase you don't play the game.

Breaking the boring meta game would mean everyone can play what they love, they are not forced into paragon grind because paragon is capped.

22/03/2016 07:12Posted by NYARLATHOTEP
You said that players stop playing because they can't catch up with others that reach too high paragons. How do you suppose that a paragon cap will motivate these players to keep playing?

If paragon is capped, no-one would need to play meta to gain XP ASAP because of the cap.

If you don't play meta, if you play with 4 players all DPS you will gain XP slower, you will not hit the cap with 3 days but you will hit the cap after a month, two or at the end of season when players begin to push for top position.

What would be the point of reaching cap in 3 days if you can play normally, not forced into meta and reach the cap naturally, not playing like a robot?
Is playing like a robot (Gabynator) what you want this game to be?

22/03/2016 07:28Posted by LordCrimson
I think its a step in the right direction.. Its ridiculous how easy it is to get paragons, especially in the low lvls.. They should make it much harder to gain paragons.. make the XP gap between lvls much much bigger..

That would be one option to do it, if you need to gain 10 or 20 times more XP than today for one paragon level, that would act as a soft cap.
If you need to grind 24 hours for one paragon then it would be sufficient.

---
Current TOP 3 paragon season 5:
1. Astaroth <WQW> 3546
2. PrincessLena <WQW> 3447
3. Gabynator <SoS> 3348

They are all playing the meta game 16+ hours a day to keep it up and not fall behind.
What would be their paragon if they were not playing meta?
A lot more lower I guess, maybe 1500 or 2000 but definitely not over 2000?

If paragon cap would mean that there is no need for meta game, you can reach the cap playing normally, whatever class you want, with build you love, who would really lose in this situation?
If paragon is capped, no-one would need to play meta to gain XP ASAP because of the cap.

If you don't play meta, if you play with 4 players all DPS you will gain XP slower, you will not hit the cap with 3 days but you will hit the cap after a month, two or at the end of season when players begin to push for top position.

Personally, I agree, but you have absolutely no indication that most players will do that. On the contrary, I think that most players will always choose the optimal strategy to be as powerful as possible, in as little time as possible.

Well, again and again... he is actually playing the game, knows the endgame and competition, a paragon cap would affect him. You don't know these things.

So, you do what you accuse *me* of doing ? Being elitist, you only consider the opinion of niche players as valid? I have the same opinion as MunQ, how does my game experience make my opinion wrong and MunQ's right?

Breaking the boring meta game would mean everyone can play what they love, they are not forced into paragon grind because paragon is capped.

Boring to whom? perhaps to some elitisits like yourself, I think it is not at all boring for the average player, the majority of the player base. But if you want to address an issue that only affects a minority, aren't you doing the thing you accuse *me* of doing? I have also said in the past that assessment of game features should not be entirely based on the niche players but mostly on the average player (post#145).
22/03/2016 08:47Posted by NYARLATHOTEP
Personally, I agree, but you have absolutely no indication that most players will do that. On the contrary, I think that most players will always choose the optimal strategy to be as powerful as possible, in as little time as possible.

Current meta forces players to play classes (or builds) they would not normally play, just because they need to grind XP.

If there are 4 Wizard friends who wanna push leaderboards, 3 of them are forced to play support, why, just because current game requires everyone to play meta to gain XP as much as possible as fast as possible because there is NO cap how much XP you can gain.

Situation is even worse for Crusaders and Demon Hunters, they are completely out of the game just because of the meta that is required for XP grind.

With paragon cap, 4 Wizards can all play together as Wizard, Crusades and Demon Hunters would be welcomed in party because there would be no pressure to gain XP ASAP because you will know you will hit the cap playing normally.

22/03/2016 08:47Posted by NYARLATHOTEP
So, you do what you accuse *me* of doing ? Being elitist, you only consider the opinion of niche players as valid? I have the same opinion as MunQ, how does my game experience make my opinion wrong and MunQ's right?

One is not an elitist if he values the opinion of player who actually is playing the game over player who is just trolling forums.
If you want your opinions to have as much value, please play the game more than you play forums.
You will not gain experience in a game by not playing it.
Does MunQ considers itself a nice player? I don't know but you seem to know.
I would say he will play a lot but not 16 hours a day, otherwise he would be 3500+.
We are talking about a cap that would be unreachable for you, but you still think it would affect you.

22/03/2016 08:47Posted by NYARLATHOTEP
Boring to whom? perhaps to some elitisits like yourself, I think it is not at all boring for the average player, the majority of the player base. But if you want to address an issue that only affects a minority, aren't you doing the thing you accuse *me* of doing? I have also said in the past that assessment of game features should not be entirely based on the niche players but mostly on the average player (post#145).

Current meta affects everyone, even public games.
If you join the game with WRONG class or build, you will be asked nicely to leave or just kicked out because you are playing WRONG class or build.

I am not being elitist wanting to chance this, wanting that every class, every DPS build could be used in high grifts without the fear of losing XP.
At the moment, if you don't play meta, if you don't push as high as one Wizard and 3 support can go, you will lose XP, you will be inefficient.

Uncapped paragon prevents this from happening, this will not happen as long as we have uncapped paragon that forces players into meta game to gain XP as much as possible as fast as possible!

It is forced because if you gain 10 times more XP while playing meta than you would get playing not meta then it's no brainer what players will do.
Obviously they wanna get 10 times more XP. This will affect everyone, not just the 1 142 players who would reach cap in 3 days!
* 10 is just for example, but difference is huge,
Having a higher paragon level than others is the least impacting thing that distinguishes a regular player from a really dedicated one. It's a lot better than giving them items and transmogs since that really would make the very big majority sad if they can never get those wings and might even be an excuse to bot for some. The top players play just for the race, which requires a lot of time and meta gaming. It doesn't even matter if they're having fun playing since they want to win. Winning or even getting higher up the ladder is the whole point for doing it. Good for them.

At the same time, the worst way to slow down levels gained is to decrease experience gained for doing something. If Blizzard thinks paragon levels get out of hand, the only reasonable option is to increase the experience needed to get there, not to nerf experience gained for -every- level of player.

A few seasons ago you would get a conquest for reaching grift 30. Now it's 70 for the last part of the seasonal journey. It only goes up more, so the average player will be reaching those grifts too. Sure, it's the power creep, but it also means all those average players have the feeling they reach a little higher every time. They probably don't reach beyond 1000, but they will probably play above 70 next season. Why oh why would you need to nerf experience for that? Let them have the satisfaction of getting that huge boost on their experience when they reach something exceptional.

The only way to reduce the gap of stats (if that is the entire problem) is to increase the amount of experience needed to reach high paragon levels. It will not stop the race for ladder players, and it will keep the average player satisfied when reaching new goals. Blizzard is hesitant to do this since this implementation will mean that those high paragon players will lose paragon levels on non-season (needing more experience to reach the same level). Maybe that's what's stopping them or maybe it's a technical issue, I don't know. All I see is that their solution of nerfing experience gained isn't the best one.
@ Shark - You're right, I do hate the Paragon grind and so does my clan.

I used to be top-3 world in paragons before Seasons got released. That's when people didn't even know who was Gabynator and the botting wasn't a thing in D3.

After the Seasons got released I stopped concentrating on the XP and put my effort getting the Rank1 in Solo. So far it has been a success and I've managed to get Rank1 on every Season @ EU WD Leaderboards..

I see some people are 1000+ paras higher than me... Let them be, it's not the Paragons which will get you the Rank1 in the end.

From my POV best option for this Paragon Mess-up would be to keep it uncapped, but rework it to something like this:

800-1000 +5 mainstat
1000-2000 +3 mainstat
2000-3000 +2 mainstat
3000 -> +1 mainstat
only would promote even more botting as long as there is some advantage people will take it

2.2k paragon? could compete with most 'bots' np and zero empathy clan does not have the cleanest reputation using 'features' of the game for the r1 world was not a problem for you

if you google ze first thing that come up says a lot

a bit off topic but its funny, so
22/03/2016 08:47Posted by NYARLATHOTEP
I have the same opinion as MunQ


22/03/2016 11:41Posted by MunQ
@ Shark - You're right, I do hate the Paragon grind and so does my clan.

You got something right in the end NYAR!
22/03/2016 11:41Posted by MunQ
From my POV best option for this Paragon Mess-up would be to keep it uncapped, but rework it to something like this:

Your solution is also good but could be even more drastic to reduces the effect of high paragon and the requirement to grind more.
Less power you gain from high paragon (1000+), less you need grind it and more you can focus on just playing the game (not meta).

Current grinding madness occurs only becase paragon gives too much power, it gives so much that not having it is not an option and that forces us into current meta game.

It should be drastic enough to break the meta game and allow everyone to play whatever class they love and not feel bad missing the XP.
800-1000 +5 mainstat
1000 - ~ +1 mainstat

This would mean that paragon 1000 player would gain +1000 mainstat, paragon 2000 player would gain +2000 mainstat and so on...
This would still give higher paragon player lead but the lead would not be as enormous as now.
It would still be noticeable.

22/03/2016 11:41Posted by MunQ
@ Shark - You're right, I do hate the Paragon grind and so does my clan.

I used to be top-3 world in paragons before Seasons got released. That's when people didn't even know who was Gabynator and the botting wasn't a thing in D3.

After the Seasons got released I stopped concentrating on the XP and put my effort getting the Rank1 in Solo. So far it has been a success and I've managed to get Rank1 on every Season @ EU WD Leaderboards..

I see some people are 1000+ paras higher than me... Let them be, it's not the Paragons which will get you the Rank1 in the end.

I appreciate that you see and understand the point I am trying to explain, something that Nyar failed but how could she.

I stopped playing regular season almost a month ago because the same meta, again and again after every season was getting boring and started HC Crusader, it has been fun.

Paragon (and power) difference between players have never been so big as it will be in this season.
You better hope that the +1000 paragon player is not running for #1 WD EU because +5000 mainstat will make the difference.

DitchWoctor, paragon: 2284
Damage 3,082,749
Toughness 63,332,814
Recovery 3,177,346

DitchWoctor, paragon: 3500
Damage 4,168,174
Toughness 78,760,244
Recovery 3,951,326

Numbers speak for themselves.
Damage increase is big, he will kill faster and higher toughness gives him advantage of surviving incoming damage, but good luck getting #1 WD, it will be difficult.

22/03/2016 12:50Posted by JustForFun
22/03/2016 08:47Posted by NYARLATHOTEP
I have the same opinion as MunQ


22/03/2016 11:41Posted by MunQ
@ Shark - You're right, I do hate the Paragon grind and so does my clan.

You got something right in the end NYAR!

Good one :)
But I think she still loves the paragon grind even thou MunQ hates it. So much of having the same opinion.

If there was a leaderboards for trolls, we know who will be #1 :D
22/03/2016 13:29Posted by Shark
But I think she still loves the paragon grind even thou MunQ hates it. So much of having the same opinion.

Yeah, I enjoy playing and increasing my Paragon level. If you read the posts again, you might realize that I don't agree with MunQ on everything, but on that specific thing we were discussing when I wrote that comment! Timing is important. Taking it out of context, then giving it new meaning, and then saying that I failed to agree with MunQ's new opinion is... weird, at least!

I appreciate that you see the point I am trying to explain, something that Nyar failed but how could she.
22/03/2016 13:29Posted by Shark
But I think she still loves the paragon grind
22/03/2016 13:29Posted by Shark
Good one :)

...and he calls *me* the troll! hehe

I don't have anything more to add in this debate, anyway, my views and opinions are already written in detail!
DitchWoctor, paragon: 2284Damage 3,082,749Toughness 63,332,814Recovery 3,177,346DitchWoctor, paragon: 3500Damage 4,168,174Toughness 78,760,244Recovery 3,951,326Numbers speak for themselves.Damage increase is big, he will kill faster and higher toughness gives him advantage of surviving incoming damage, but good luck getting #1 WD, it will be difficult.


You forget to add that :

p2284 grinded X hours
p3500 grinded 3*X hours

For 3x the grind time the p3500 have:
+35% dmg (+2GR levels will make the mobs +37% tougher)
+24% tougher (+2GR levels mobs will hit +15% harder)

Plain and simple 2GR levels advantage.

Bots and cheats aside ,

How much YOU think the reward have to be for such a difference in grind time?
+1GR level?
No reward?
Why not make it so paragon 1 players also compete for #1?

just curious - not saying your argument is wrong.

And I don't want to participate in the personal vendettas here , thank you in advance :))
But lets ask ourselves is this what we want to encourage, having inhumanly play time ? Because at this point there is all there is going on in leaderboards. At this point leaderboards are all about the paragon, doesn't matter if you consider the solo leaderboards or parties. Yes Players that play more should be rewarded for that but leaderboards should not be only about who plays more.
I can't believe so many of you don't see the flaws in the paragon system?
After all it's the result of just a couple of band aid solutions. Oh you reached 800, oh you reached that far, oops we let groups get xp multiplied by x*x*x...

If you play more hours you probably get some better items, better chance on getting good GRs, level gems etc.
Why on earth should you also get like a handicap cause you just play?
And play inhumanly many hours like Raijin put it and perhaps also cheat.
A handicap you then can use on all heros and builds?

We have the new augmenting thing, perhaps not perfect but you can always level gems and then gear, should keep players busy for long and give progress but you have to work for it in the end. The good thing with this system is it's more tied to the hero/gear you play so you don't get to dominate all classes/builds by just playing one build.

Progress should come from beating one GR level higher and be able to take your gear to the next level and beat the next and so on. It should get slower and slower. Progress may be a few seconds in the end but may let you claim the top spots. Then you can go and explore the next build and so on. Looong replayability, no one is left behind cause everyone will at least have the potential and time to be able to take one hero to high levels. They can even have a combined leaderboard for all classes where the real hardcore grinders can compete. This system is in the end not so bot-friendly. Of course players will bot to do the low level dirty work but they will not as now dominate the leaderboards. In the end it will be about consistenly beat high GRs to win.

It's so obvious, so why can't you all see it?
Do you all believe in god as well?
Oh Christ... ;-)
22/03/2016 11:41Posted by MunQ

800-1000 +5 mainstat
1000-2000 +3 mainstat
2000-3000 +2 mainstat
3000 -> +1 mainstat


This could work very well also, its something, its better than what Blizzard is doing and that would be nothing.

Tel me Munq do you think you would stil have a change if you wouldn't have played support in the meta whole season ? I mean you have 2200 paragon playing only sup wd just to have a chance at solo leaderboards. Do you also think that you would still have a chance against someone 3500+ paragon, if that person puts as much effort as you when comes to pushing solo wd ?

22/03/2016 07:28Posted by LordCrimson
I think its a step in the right direction.. Its ridiculous how easy it is to get paragons, especially in the low lvls.. They should make it much harder to gain paragons.. make the XP gap between lvls much much bigger..


it would be if it weren't for the new power creep or maybe im wrong mybe what happened this season is mostly to the crazy OP wiz but if there will be a new power creep the XP nerf would be meaningless.
22/03/2016 11:41Posted by MunQ

800-1000 +5 mainstat
1000-2000 +3 mainstat
2000-3000 +2 mainstat
3000 -> +1 mainstat


This could work very well also, its something, its better than what Blizzard is doing and that would be nothing.

Tel me Munq do you think you would stil have a change if you wouldn't have played support in the meta whole season ? I mean you have 2200 paragon playing only sup wd just to have a chance at solo leaderboards. Do you also think that you would still have a chance against someone 3500+ paragon, if that person puts as much effort as you when comes to pushing solo wd ?


What does it matter if I'd play supp wd or dps wiz? Levels would be exactly the same playing either one of them.

Of course it's different on HC where people prefer playing only supports to make sure they don't die.

And what comes to competing against 3.5k paras with 2k paras...It will be hard, but It's definitely doable. When I'm watching the Solo WD Leaderboards 99% of the players don't know how to gear up their chars.. They just copy-paste the gear/spec from Rank1 guy not knowing what they're doing. 1500paras won't save you if you use un-optimized spec and items with wrong re-rolls.

I'm more than happy to accept the challenge of 3.5k para guys, since I've had no competition @ EU since they implemented Leaderboards.
Its doable in the current state of the game because those guis that have insanely huge paragon never focus on one bracket but you with 2000 paragon would lose against you with 3500 paragon big time. Another thing is that in WD bracket there is not as much competition as it is on Wizz bracket, for example or as it was on monk braket last season. You should try playing the most played class in every season to see how having a bigger player base feels like. There you will see the biggest competition on wd I don't think there are to many players competing.

22/03/2016 18:19Posted by MunQ
What does it matter if I'd play supp wd or dps wiz? Levels would be exactly the same playing either one of them.


You play support because you like it or because you are forced to ?
Current TOP paragon players have been playing more than 1430 hours this season.

From: Friday, 15 January 2016, 18:00:00
To: Wednesday, 23 March 2016, 10:58:43 (today)

This will translate:
or 67 days (rounded down)
or 1624 hours (rounded down)

If we take 1430 hours in this season and divide it with 67 days we get 21,4 hours, every day.

22/03/2016 15:27Posted by Raijin
But lets ask ourselves is this what we want to encourage, having inhumanly play time ?

Playing 67 days straight, every damn day 21+ hours with less than 3 hours sleep, not to mention you need to eat, wash, use bathroom etc.

They must be superhumans to do that without killing themselves. I don't see how this is humanly possible.

Current meta forces players into self harming gameplay, maybe if something bad happends, only then Blizzard or developers do something about it!
I do hope that this will never happen!

Sadly, not a long time ago...
Tragic teen gamer dies after 'playing computer for 22 days in a row'
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/tragic-teen-gamer-dies-after-6373887
23/03/2016 09:24Posted by Shark
If we take 1430 hours in this season and divide it with 67 days we get 21,4 hours, every day.


Which also can be:

Player A1 plays 7 hrs, then player A2 plays 7 hrs and finally player A3 plays 7 hrs , so the account A has 21 hrs playtime and hit the boards. That's another kind of teamwork.

OR

Player A1 plays the meta for 7 intense hours while the team is available and then he runs the bot on autopilot for the rest of the day till next team session.

No harm done, no dead teenagers, no zombie appocalypse :))

The biggest problems IMHO was the broken exp gain from items last season and the broken mandatory meta team this season.

Also Blizz give us some serious power creep every patch but does not adjust the paragon exp scaling accordingly to mitigate the effect. It should be much steeper than it is now as to forbid such ridiculous results as 4000 paragons in 2 months.
Btw, reaching 4000 in 2 months means one have to grind from p0 to p1030 on an average day ..... EVERY day for two months.

P.S.
And Blizz, PLEASE STOP 3007-kill my toons - even if I had 5000 paragons I can't play sh...t without gear, thank you, end of rant

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