Blizzard Nerfs Paragons 2.4.1

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Paragons is also boting Holyspawn. Yes botting will always be in diablo but when you give boters such great power it will always act as an incentive. Paragon is broken as it is because it links competitions to UNHUMANLY play time hours.

Again Nyarlathotep you keep spaming this thing with paragons not giving to much power but you disregard the fact that the ones bothered by it are competitive players. So let me make things clear for someone that never competed in top 10 or so in leaderboards.

Power for 3 ,4 higher grifts means a LOT when it comes to fishing. Practically makes those top spots unreachable. Sure in Hardcore might be easier to get into those top 10 or 5 if you have some skill considering the player pool is much smaller. But in softcore the leaderboard competition is only A PARAGON COMPETITION. Get that in your head Nyarlacasual.

18/03/2016 20:28Posted by Holyspawn

Diablo is great as it is. Period.


True. Diablo is a great game, if you ignore the fact that even after the "nerf" Ubers are stil boring as crap, if yo uare ignoring the fact that Bounties are boring as crap, if you are ignoring the fact that farming keys on t10 when you insta kill every elite is boring as crap or if yo uare ignoring the fact that XP farming tends to get OLD pretty fast.

What is Diablo 3

A diamond placed in a rusted BOX.
18/03/2016 22:00Posted by Raijin
Diablo is a great game, if you ignore the fact that even after the "nerf" Ubers are stil boring as crap, if yo uare ignoring the fact that Bounties are boring as crap, if you are ignoring the fact that farming keys on t10 when you insta kill every elite is boring as crap or if yo uare ignoring the fact that XP farming tends to get OLD pretty fast.

That's just your opinion. Many others, myself included, don't find those things "boring as crap". Maybe they will become boring if I play 4-5 hours daily, but that would mean I've spent SO MUCH time with this game already, that it must be a great game to begin with!

18/03/2016 22:00Posted by Raijin
Again Nyarlathotep you keep spaming this thing with paragons not giving to much power but you disregard the fact that the ones bothered by it are competitive players. So let me make things clear for someone that never competed in top 10 or so in leaderboards.

Power for 3 ,4 higher grifts means a LOT when it comes to fishing. Practically makes those top spots unreachable. Sure in Hardcore might be easier to get into those top 10 or 5 if you have some skill considering the player pool is much smaller. But in softcore the leaderboard competition is only A PARAGON COMPETITION. Get that in your head Nyarlacasual.

3-4 GRIFT levels might be a big thing in the competition, but it is 2500 Paragon levels we are talking about... if a player has 2500 more paragons, he deserves to beat 3-4 GR levels higher, at least! Botting is not a result of Paragons, botting would always exist even without paragon system; so stop using this argument, being off-topic in your own thread too!

Finally, a "casual's" (like myself) opinion is as important and valid as an "elitist's" opinion (like yourself).
18/03/2016 22:00Posted by Raijin
Diablo is a great game, if you ignore the fact that even after the "nerf" Ubers are stil boring as crap, if yo uare ignoring the fact that Bounties are boring as crap, if you are ignoring the fact that farming keys on t10 when you insta kill every elite is boring as crap

NYAR answers:
just your opinion. Many others, myself included, don't find those things "boring as crap"

Perhaps if you play more you would understand Nyar? But I suspect it's something else...
You have fought for the AHs, trials and numerous other things here on the forums, until Blizz decide to change the game for the better. You also defended the build diversity when we had none. 9000+ posts now? And then you usually say players play too much?
The things Raijin listed gets boring and becomes something bots can do. I'm a "normal" player and it fast got boring in both sc and hc in s5.
TX equals GR45 and the top are at 80+ now.
If we had the same difficulty slider as in GRs and got more mats/keys it would be much more fun to play and the advantage of botting will be less.
UNCAP the gameplay makes the game more fun to play and lower the bot advantage.
Should be simple to understand.

Paragon?
In D3 the issue (capped gameplay) above + paragon + Blizz mistakes to leave exploitable items/skills in the game makes a few players (1000) able to dominate the leaderborads for all classes in a region. Hell, even their bots are strong as hell cause of the paragons. To do something to get somewhere, to have a goal, is good. When the goal gets stolen and carried out of sight as in D3 by the 24/7 paragon hunters, it doesn't work. So...
CAP paragon.
Not so much because of the bots but because of the players that play like bots all waken hours. Should also be simple to understand.

UNCAP the gameplay and CAP the paragon. To beat GRs, level gems and augment gear and raise the bar (your cap) a level and have a go at it should be the game at all times. I find augmenting better than paragon as it's limited to one class/gear.

In the end a more fun game. For all.
(except perhaps for a few cheaters and a few forum trolls)
Paragon is probably one of the biggest reason why we have so many bots, people get tired of endless paragon farming and start botting instead.
Why waste your time running Greater Rifts 18 hours a day when you can have bot to do it for you.

Let's face it, gear is super easy to get, anyone with 1-2 hours a day of free time will not have problems acquiring gear. They don't need to bot.

Not to mention that everyone (except Nyarlathotep and Jazz) will be forced to grind paragon because paragon gives you HUGE advantage over everyone else.

Grinding paragon locks you up playing one character (or one in 4 that are part of meta), meaning you can forgot playing 2 other classes because they are not part of the meta and if you don't play meta and grind XP, you lose too much paragon.

Paragon 1 000
- Damage 2,438,044
- Toughness 106,089,804

Paragon 2 500
- Damage 4,036,831
- Toughness 145,111,899

Paragon 5 000
- Damage 6,701,476
- Toughness 210,148,725

Damage almost doubles and triples with few thousand paragon, not to mention toughness that doubles.

You can have the best gear in game but if you don't have thousands of paragons, you are as weak as player who has been played for a week.
19/03/2016 10:47Posted by JustForFun
Perhaps if you play more you would understand Nyar? But I suspect it's something else...

No, I don't have to play more; I play as much as I need, and I understand the game in the way I do, I don't want to understand it in the way *you* or *raijin* does. Why don't *you* or Raijin understand it in the way *I* do? In other words, different players have different needs, and all needs are valid.

19/03/2016 11:10Posted by Shark
Paragon is probably one of the biggest reason why we have so many bots, people get tired of endless paragon farming and start botting instead.

This does not mean that if Paragon system is gone, botting will stop. So, don't try to relate Paragon system to botting.

19/03/2016 10:47Posted by JustForFun
CAP paragon.
Not so much because of the bots but because of the players that play like bots all waken hours. Should also be simple to understand.

Simple... and wrong. I prefer those players to be able to enjoy being better if they can play more than others. Paragon system gives players a guaranteed way to see their power grow; as opposed to the random drops, which is the thing that makes the game addictive and replayable. Paragon System contrasting Random Loot ==> good design.

Anyway.

19/03/2016 11:10Posted by Shark
Let's face it, gear is super easy to get, anyone with 1-2 hours a day of free time will not have problems acquiring gear. They don't need to bot.

You are wrong. Decent gear is indeed easy to get. But when you speak of the importance of 3-4 GR levels from **2500** paragons, you are talking about the top competitive players that bother with such things. In that category, you need the best gear, the optimal rolls; that is not easy to get. You keep writing about 5000 paragons like it is something the average player can achieve; well, it is not, it is only relevant to a tiny minority, a niche group of players that are active at such levels.

So, the importance of a feature, and the need to change it is very tightly related to the number of player it affects.

Also, the current Paragon system is very closely related to "Endless Grifts" - if I get to the Paragon level cap, how am I going to progress further in grifts?

19/03/2016 11:10Posted by Shark
Damage almost doubles and triples with few thousand paragon, not to mention toughness that doubles.

But the mob health also scales! Double hero damage, means the hero can beat 6-7 more levels of grifts. So, the absolute increase you mention ("double the damage") only allows you to progress a few grifts higher. Doubling your damage does not allow you to progress two times more in grifts! Similarly for Toughness and monster damage.
19/03/2016 13:16Posted by NYARLATHOTEP
But the mob health also scales! Double hero damage, means the hero can beat 6-7 more levels of grifts. So, the absolute increase you mention ("double the damage") only allows you to progress a few grifts higher. Doubling your damage does not allow you to progress two times more in grifts! Similarly for Toughness and monster damage

Are you just short sighted or unable to see the future? Not sure which one is true.

If double damage at paragon 2500 allows you to progress 6-7 grifts higher, then at 5000 you will do 9-10 and at 10 000 18 - 20 level higher grifts.

Calculation are probably off but you get the point, people with same gear, only difference is paragon stats, one has thousands of paragons more will means that he will do 6 - 20 level higher grifts just because of stat points, not because he has better gear!

Lower paragon guy might have even better gear but this does not matter, only paragon matters.

Character power does not come from gear anymore but from paragon, paragon will make gear irrelevant.

Solution might be capping paragon in Greater Rift, one cap for everyone (1000 or 1500).

Or make different leagues based on paragon level.
1. 1 - 999 league, everyone will have 1000 main stat
2. 1001 - 2000, everyone will have 2000 main stat
3. 2001 - 3000, everyone will have 3000 main stat
4. 3001 - 4000, everyone will have 4000 main stat
5. 4001 - 5000, everyone will have 5000 main stat

This will mean that players in one league will compete against other players gear, skill and luck (Diablo is RNG), not against paragon stats!
18/03/2016 22:00Posted by Raijin
Paragons is also boting Holyspawn. Yes botting will always be in diablo but when you give boters such great power it will always act as an incentive. Paragon is broken as it is because it links competitions to UNHUMANLY play time hours.

Again Nyarlathotep you keep spaming this thing with paragons not giving to much power but you disregard the fact that the ones bothered by it are competitive players. So let me make things clear for someone that never competed in top 10 or so in leaderboards.

Power for 3 ,4 higher grifts means a LOT when it comes to fishing. Practically makes those top spots unreachable. Sure in Hardcore might be easier to get into those top 10 or 5 if you have some skill considering the player pool is much smaller. But in softcore the leaderboard competition is only A PARAGON COMPETITION. Get that in your head Nyarlacasual.

18/03/2016 20:28Posted by Holyspawn

Diablo is great as it is. Period.


True. Diablo is a great game, if you ignore the fact that even after the "nerf" Ubers are stil boring as crap, if yo uare ignoring the fact that Bounties are boring as crap, if you are ignoring the fact that farming keys on t10 when you insta kill every elite is boring as crap or if yo uare ignoring the fact that XP farming tends to get OLD pretty fast.

What is Diablo 3

A diamond placed in a rusted BOX.


Yes Raj, this game have only 1 or 2 issues at the moment (at least in normal, since HC have its own additional severe issues) 1 is botting and 1 is lag. Botting is a cheating activity that only loser (ethically and logically) can do, there is no justification to do such retarded things, is like when in sport people take drugs or dope to cheat on others, only losers do that. Blizzard is failing hard on this, making only few huge ban waves but with time intervals too big, they should ban in waves daily and sistematically those scumbags and then progressively the issue would go out very soon. Lag is still the 2nd problem of this game and here is again Blizzard to fail hard and invest less money than it should. The solutions are there and very simple for a company like Blizzard to resolve, it`s only a matter of will, and any others justifications coming from Blizard can only insult the intelligence of even an average dumb guy. That`s all, other than that this game is splendid, the best pure action game around at the moment, Blizzard must only stop to merely harvest money and care less and less about botting and lag.
19/03/2016 14:27Posted by Shark
If double damage at paragon 2500 allows you to progress 6-7 grifts higher, then at 5000 you will do 9-10 and at 10 000 18 - 20 level higher grifts.

Calculation are probably off but you get the point, people with same gear, only difference is paragon stats, one has thousands of paragons more will means that he will do 6 - 20 level higher grifts just because of stat points, not because he has better gear!

2500 paragons correspond to 3-4 grift levels. I find nothing wrong if two heros with the same gear and 5000 paragons difference, can perform at 6-8 grift levels of difference. The hero that has 5000 more paragons SHOULD perform better.
19/03/2016 17:28Posted by NYARLATHOTEP
2500 paragons correspond to 3-4 grift levels. I find nothing wrong if two heros with the same gear and 5000 paragons difference, can perform at 6-8 grift levels of difference. The hero that has 5000 more paragons SHOULD perform better.

So now it's 3 - 4 grift levels, just few hours ago it was 6 - 7...

19/03/2016 13:16Posted by NYARLATHOTEP
But the mob health also scales! Double hero damage, means the hero can beat 6-7 more levels of grifts. So, the absolute increase you mention ("double the damage") only allows you to progress a few grifts higher. Doubling your damage does not allow you to progress two times more in grifts! Similarly for Toughness and monster damage

Why do you twist numbers to suit your best need? Make up your mind.
Don't try to show numbers smaller than they actually are!
19/03/2016 17:10Posted by Holyspawn

Yes Raj, this game have only 1 or 2 issues at the moment (at least in normal, since HC have its own additional severe issues) 1 is botting and 1 is lag. Botting is a cheating activity that only loser (ethically and logically) can do, there is no justification to do such retarded things, is like when in sport people take drugs or dope to cheat on others, only losers do that. Blizzard is failing hard on this, making only few huge ban waves but with time intervals too big, they should ban in waves daily and sistematically those scumbags and then progressively the issue would go out very soon. Lag is still the 2nd problem of this game and here is again Blizzard to fail hard and invest less money than it should. The solutions are there and very simple for a company like Blizzard to resolve, it`s only a matter of will, and any others justifications coming from Blizard can only insult the intelligence of even an average dumb guy. That`s all, other than that this game is splendid, the best pure action game around at the moment, Blizzard must only stop to merely harvest money and care less and less about botting and lag.


Yes, I agree, botting is terrible.

Just out of curiosity, how many hours a day do you play? I see you reached plvl 2350 in softcore, plvl 1510 in hardcore and 665 plvl's in season. That's... wow.
someome knows bigger fanboy than nyarthatep? dedicated his life defending blizzard on forum and not playing the games :o
19/03/2016 20:15Posted by Buki
19/03/2016 17:10Posted by Holyspawn

Yes Raj, this game have only 1 or 2 issues at the moment (at least in normal, since HC have its own additional severe issues) 1 is botting and 1 is lag. Botting is a cheating activity that only loser (ethically and logically) can do, there is no justification to do such retarded things, is like when in sport people take drugs or dope to cheat on others, only losers do that. Blizzard is failing hard on this, making only few huge ban waves but with time intervals too big, they should ban in waves daily and sistematically those scumbags and then progressively the issue would go out very soon. Lag is still the 2nd problem of this game and here is again Blizzard to fail hard and invest less money than it should. The solutions are there and very simple for a company like Blizzard to resolve, it`s only a matter of will, and any others justifications coming from Blizard can only insult the intelligence of even an average dumb guy. That`s all, other than that this game is splendid, the best pure action game around at the moment, Blizzard must only stop to merely harvest money and care less and less about botting and lag.


Yes, I agree, botting is terrible.

Just out of curiosity, how many hours a day do you play? I see you reached plvl 2350 in softcore, plvl 1510 in hardcore and 665 plvl's in season. That's... wow.


Thank you, i play 4-5 hours a day, since i`m a financial manager. I started normal from january when i have abandoned HC since is unplayable (died for connections Blizzard server side issue at 2 weeks before the end of s4, i was 7th barb EU and i had a char able to get number 3 for sure). I`m enjoying normal, even if HC is where the end ultimate game is, but it`s simply unplayable without a connection issues protection system + without lag ofc.
19/03/2016 21:03Posted by Riddel
someome knows bigger fanboy than nyarthatep? dedicated his life defending blizzard on forum and not playing the games :o


He is more like a PR Employee more than once he seems as confused as blizzard when it comes to Diablo 3. He doesn't know that bounties are boring couse he plays 1 / week, he doesn't know Ubers is boring couse he never did Ubers because they are to hard for him. This guy practically ignores all that is related to the "little" competition we have in diablo, be it leaderboards, achievements, greater grifts progress.

Nyarlacasual is beyond approach, he trolls forums like a boss.

Seriously seeing how oblivious he is to some parts of the game and considering how many posts he mady on those forums 9000+ one would think that ider he is lonely or he works or knows someone at Blizzard and thinks of protecting that person aka PR troll boss.

Who knows maybe he is actually the forum manager in disguise.
So now it's 3 - 4 grift levels, just few hours ago it was 6 - 7...

3-4 Grifts come from 2500 Paragon levels, 6-7 grifts from 5000. You should read the context. But I know, you said big numbers are confusing, and it seems you were telling the truth.

19/03/2016 21:40Posted by Raijin
He doesn't know that bounties are boring couse he plays 1 / week, he doesn't know Ubers is boring couse he never did Ubers because they are to hard for him.

"Don't know Bounties are boring?"!! "Ubers are hard"?? No, no, no, I like bounties and I do Ubers regularly, I enjoy both features a lot. Damn, I fell for that trick, I fed the troll!

19/03/2016 21:03Posted by Riddel
someome knows bigger fanboy than nyarthatep? dedicated his life defending blizzard on forum and not playing the games :o
19/03/2016 21:40Posted by Raijin
He is more like a PR Employee
19/03/2016 21:40Posted by Raijin
Nyarlacasual is beyond approach, he trolls forums like a boss.
19/03/2016 21:40Posted by Raijin
Who knows maybe he is actually the forum manager in disguise.

And, yes, when all else fails, the usual thing happens: ad hominem attacks regarding the number of posts and my loneliness! I like this when it happens, as it proves that these posters have no reasonable arguments.
Man when you come to us telling us crap like Bounties are not boring gives us a clue about how clueless you actually are.
19/03/2016 17:10Posted by Holyspawn
Yes Raj, this game have only 1 or 2 issues at the moment

Botting and lag arent even real issues, they are just consequences of the real issues. I stopped playing because there was no point in playing any of the other 5 classes (I only truly played monk), even tho originally I had planned to play all classes. The game lacks actual replayability. (or alternatively, a story/campaign/scenario mode that isnt sleeproll)
20/03/2016 05:34Posted by NYARLATHOTEP
And, yes, when all else fails, the usual thing happens: ad hominem attacks regarding the number of posts and my loneliness! I like this when it happens, as it proves that these posters have no reasonable arguments.

Why are you so lonely, what happened with you?
Help us understand you.
No one in the world should be lonely!

If you feel you are lonely, why not play more?
It will be more useful than lurking in the forums and trying to archive 10 000 post award.
19/03/2016 17:10Posted by Holyspawn
Yes Raj, this game have only 1 or 2 issues at the moment

I think the game lacks actual replayability. (or alternatively, a story/campaign/scenario mode that isnt sleeproll)


Fixed that for you ;) (I still love the game)
20/03/2016 06:33Posted by Raijin
Man when you come to us telling us crap like Bounties are not boring gives us a clue about how clueless you actually are.

If you find it boring, then it is boring for you! But, no matter how you put it, there is no way you can prove that something *you* find boring, is also boring for everyone else! So, I will keep enjoying my not-at-all boring Bounties, gathering materials for reforging and whatever, while you get frustrated because... I like them?
20/03/2016 10:06Posted by NYARLATHOTEP
If you find it boring, then it is boring for you! But, no matter how you put it, there is no way you can prove that something *you* find boring, is also boring for everyone else! So, I will keep enjoying my not-at-all boring Bounties, gathering materials for reforging and whatever, while you get frustrated because... I like them?

I hope even you are able to step out of your little bubble and look at this objectively. What you feel is irrelevant, please look at it from all different players perspective. When players are able to beat GR70+, GR80+ or even GR90+ you must be able to understand that to go down to TX=GR45 feels boring? It's not like you can skip it cause you need mats and keys. This also becomes a bot playground. Can you understand it? Can you see the obvious fix? (Hint: Blizz fixed it a while ago but it wasn't a lasting fix so they need to have a go at it again).

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