Blizzard Nerfs Paragons 2.4.1

General Discussion
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20/03/2016 11:39Posted by JustForFun
When players are able to beat GR70+, GR80+ or even GR90+ you must be able to understand that to go down to TX=GR45 feels boring?

I think it mostly has to do with the time they spend playing. If they get burnt by playing so much as to get P2000 or GR80, etc, it is expected to become bored. But they have played many hours before that, so we can't say that the game is *generally* boring, as it surely was not boring during their progress to that levels.

I certainly accept that after playing for countless hours most aspects of the game become boring. That is expected and should not be a critical parameter in assessing the game because the majority of the players do not belong to the category of P2500+; the majority does not include players that play 8 hours daily; the majority cannot do GR90+; etc.
20/03/2016 13:01Posted by NYARLATHOTEP
20/03/2016 11:39Posted by JustForFun
When players are able to beat GR70+, GR80+ or even GR90+ you must be able to understand that to go down to TX=GR45 feels boring?

I think it mostly has to do with the time they spend playing. If they get burnt by playing so much as to get P2000 or GR80, etc, it is expected to become bored. But they have played many hours before that, so we can't say that the game is *generally* boring, as it surely was not boring during their progress to that levels.

I certainly accept that after playing for countless hours most aspects of the game become boring. That is expected and should not be a critical parameter in assessing the game because the majority of the players do not belong to the category of P2500+; the majority does not include players that play 8 hours daily; the majority cannot do GR90+; etc.

Bounties get boring much sooner than paragon 2000, it will only take a week, two or month, for some people even less when Torment 10 becomes too easy.
Too easy/boring = sometimes monsters die off-screen.

I could play T10 hardcore with blindfolded eyes without any fear because it's like normal, monsters die from one touch. This is boring.
There is no way to do bounties without getting bored but bounty mats are much needed!

You would know this if you played this game more than you play forums.

I remember that you also said that trials are fun / not boring when everyone else was crying out how bad they were.
You are unique :)
20/03/2016 13:30Posted by Shark
You would know this if you played this game more than you play forums.

I play the game as much as I want, and I don't find them boring. So... am I having fun in the wrong way perhaps?

20/03/2016 13:30Posted by Shark
I remember that you also said that trials are fun / not boring when everyone else was crying out how bad they were.
You are unique :)

Thanks! I prefer having my own opinion on things, rather than jumping on the bandwagon and doing as everyone else does. Trials were a good thing back then, they were useful to get some insight about group setups and GRIFT capabilities, since players did not have extensive experience in GRIFTs. After a point, the majority of players had enough experience with the GRIFT system, so Trails were not as useful as in the start. It is good to see the game being flexible and dynamic to the current "meta".

Personally, I liked them a lot and would enjoy a new leaderboard for Trials, seeing how far players can go. Since the Trials environment is very different than grifts, new builds might be optimal for that. And surely, Trials can be enhanced and improved in various ways, and may be an alternative extra option to get GRIFT keys.
nyaerthatep you are missed on hs forums, some people complain about some cards need nerfing and no one to say the opposite :)

got to be the only individual to think trials were fun, no one bots in d3 as well :>
19/03/2016 21:03Posted by Riddel
someome knows bigger fanboy than nyarthatep? dedicated his life defending blizzard on forum and not playing the games :o


He is more like a PR Employee more than once he seems as confkused as blizzard when it comes to Diablo 3. He doesn't know that bounties are boring couse he plays 1 / week, he doesn't know Ubers is boring couse he never did Ubers because they are to hard for him. This guy practically ignores all that is related to the "little" competition we have in diablo, be it leaderboards, achievements, greater grifts progress.

Nyarlacasual is beyond approach, he trolls forums like a boss.

Seriously seeing how oblivious he is to some parts of the game and considering how many posts he mady on those forums 9000+ one would think that ider he is lonely or he works or knows someone at Blizzard and thinks of protecting that person aka PR troll boss.

Who knows maybe he is actually the forum manager in disguise.


Funny thing is that he doesn't seem to stoop to personal attacks and offensiveness like you do. Never abusive or trying to ridicule others.
20/03/2016 13:01Posted by NYARLATHOTEP
I think it mostly has to do with the time they spend playing. If they get burnt by playing so much as to get P2000 or GR80, etc, it is expected to become bored. But they have played many hours before that, so we can't say that the game is *generally* boring, as it surely was not boring during their progress to that levels.

No, it's boring because of the cap on the level we can play bounties/rifts on. It's Blizz flawed designs fault. If you can continue to challenge yourself like you actually do when you gear and level up early on (it's a fun game NYAR we all agree), the game will at least not get boring in the long run because of lack of challenge like now. Do you get it now? The keyword is UNCAP. This should be easy to fix.

20/03/2016 13:01Posted by NYARLATHOTEP
I certainly accept that after playing for countless hours most aspects of the game become boring.

20/03/2016 13:01Posted by NYARLATHOTEP
the majority of the players do not belong to the category of P2500+; the majority does not include players that play 8 hours daily

Good observations! Add that playing in a special way (support?) as fast as possible at a constantly lower difficulty nearly all times gets sooo boring. So why on earth do the paragon system reward this boring gameplay the most then, only rewarding a very few players (how many of em' use bots as well?)? Solution and keyword is CAP as in CAP the paragon.

About the power of paragon. Shark's data shows a p2500 player have about 5 GR levels advantage over a p1000 player. The damage increase is 66% and the toughness increase is 37%. That's 3-4 GRs from the damage alone and then you have to add toughness and higher gems/augments and it's easily 5 GRs. Most players are left behind already. Consider also that you get the extra paragon mainly by playing support so far and then you can use the paragon to conquer the leaderboards for all classes. Another flawed game design. Level gems in groups and use them solo is yet another flawed design. There are quite simple solutions to all of the flaws mentioned so I have faith we'll get a better game in the end.
20/03/2016 20:26Posted by JustForFun
Consider also that you get the extra paragon mainly by playing support so far and then you can use the paragon to conquer the leaderboards for all classes. Another flawed game design.


Its mindboggling how Blizzard still can't see that they need to TOTALLY separate Solo Leaderboards from party leaderboards. How, they should know that already.
20/03/2016 20:26Posted by JustForFun
Solution and keyword is CAP as in CAP the paragon.

I think that if there was a paragon CAP most players would stop playing as soon as they reached the cap. It is good to have a direct and clear way to see constant progress, even if it is slow; Paragons do that - if you cap paragon, you take that away.

Items are not guaranteed to show you constant progress. You may play for a month and not get an item upgrade, if your gear is already excellent. But if you play for month, you will surely see progress in your paragon level, and that is a nice guaranteed reward for your time playing.

As for the extreme cases of playing support to get high paragons: in my opinion, if a player wants to be competitive and be among the *best* players, then he has to do what it takes. Be it playing support, constant grinding, minmaxing the stats, taking notes and analyzing performance. Since there are people that are willing to do these things, if a player wants to compete with them, he should do these things himself and even more.

As for botting: unlimited paragon is certainly an incentive to use bots every hour of the day. Would removing or capping the paragon system remove botting? Certainly NOT. So, the botting argument is not fit to the Paragon discussion.

As for separate solo Leaderboards: from what I've read so far, Blizzard considers D3 mainly a multiplayer game and gives more importance to multiplayer experience. I would not expect Blizz to provide strong incentives to make you choose solo over multi. A solo leaderboard would be a strong incentive. Things like SET dungeons are extra content that fits more to solo gaming, but it is something that you do once and get over with it -- while competing in solo ladder would be a constant drive for players.
20/03/2016 20:26Posted by JustForFun

Good observations! Add that playing in a special way (support?) as fast as possible at a constantly lower difficulty nearly all times gets sooo boring. So why on earth do the paragon system reward this boring gameplay the most then, only rewarding a very few players (how many of em' use bots as well?)? Solution and keyword is CAP as in CAP the paragon.


No, solution and keyword is: stop the bots. Why should players who play the game by the rules get punished just because someone chooses to use bots instead? Blizz should address the bot issue and resolve it. Period.

Also. it's illogical to cap the paragon and yet keep the grifts uncapped. I don't see it is a problem if someone who has plvl2500 beats 5 lvl higher grifts, and do you why? Because, in my book, he deserves it. He played for God knows how many hours and he should be rewarded for that. Doing the opposite (capping plvls) would certainly have a far worse impact on players. At least now anyone and everyone can see real benefit from playing the game more.

Let's not forget, whatever the cap lvl for paragon would be, it would be reached fast by many players and than what? They would get bored soon after and leave the game altogether.

20/03/2016 20:26Posted by JustForFun

About the power of paragon. Shark's data shows a p2500 player have about 5 GR levels advantage over a p1000 player. The damage increase is 66% and the toughness increase is 37%. That's 3-4 GRs from the damage alone and then you have to add toughness and higher gems/augments and it's easily 5 GRs. Most players are left behind already. Consider also that you get the extra paragon mainly by playing support so far and then you can use the paragon to conquer the leaderboards for all classes. Another flawed game design. Level gems in groups and use them solo is yet another flawed design. There are quite simple solutions to all of the flaws mentioned so I have faith we'll get a better game in the end.


I don't see this as a "flawed design", I actually see this as an ideal incentive to keep players playing.

We all need to understand one thing. Blizz's inability or will to properly deal with bots should not, in any way shape or form, be a reason for any of us to suggest "solutions" that would, in essence, punish legitimate players.
As long as we have uncapped paragon and boring gameplay (bounties, regular rifts) bots will be ruling the game!
There is nothing that can be done except cap paragon and make regular rifts and bounties fun/challenging again (T11 - T20 for example).

If and when they ban, bot makers will learn and make their bots even harder to detect, it's a never ending cat and mouse game.
Unlimited paragon makes people bot because 99.99% of us don't have time to play 16 hours a day.

Only Blizzard can stop it by capping paragon, making botting useless or re-working paragon so it will not give us main stat anymore.
Shark, since you disregard all points made in the two posts before yours and you keep repeating "cap paragons" like a mantra, can you tell us what is your proposed cap level? At which level should they cap paragons and why?
21/03/2016 12:53Posted by NYARLATHOTEP
Shark, since you disregard all points made in the two posts before yours and you keep repeating "cap paragons" like a mantra, can you tell us what is your proposed cap level? At which level should they cap paragons and why?

Paragon cap would not affect you or Buki, you both are too low, why are you so worried about it?
It should be reasonable, high enough that 99.9% of seasonal players will not hit easy.

It could be between 1000 and 1500, probably 1500 would be enough.

That would mean more fair competition in season, more players would be able to compete, not only players who can play 16 hours a day and gain 2500+ paragon lead!

This would make season better for all players playing it, except the 0.01% who will hit the cap too fast.

NB! This would only affect season, non-season should stay uncapped because there is no reset in non-season.
If for some reason, you only play this game for paragon points, you can just keep playing non-season.

If power creep increases, so should paragon cap, maybe 1500 this season but 1800 next season and so on...

With paragon cap, you can play all classes in one season, you can compete with all classes, you have time to level up and gear every class.
You are not forces into paragon grind 3 months in a row like now.

This would also break the meta game and allows every class to play in high grifts.
21/03/2016 14:20Posted by Shark
21/03/2016 12:53Posted by NYARLATHOTEP
Shark, since you disregard all points made in the two posts before yours and you keep repeating "cap paragons" like a mantra, can you tell us what is your proposed cap level? At which level should they cap paragons and why?

Paragon cap would not affect you or Buki, you both are too low, why are you so worried about it?
It should be reasonable, high enough that 99.9% of seasonal players will not hit easy.

It could be between 1000 and 1500, probably 1500 would be enough.

That would mean more fair competition in season, more players would be able to compete, not only players who can play 16 hours a day and gain 2500+ paragon lead!

This would make season better for all players playing it, except the 0.01% who will hit the cap too fast.

NB! This would only affect season, non-season should stay uncapped because there is no reset in non-season.
If for some reason, you only play this game for paragon points, you can just keep playing non-season.

If power creep increases, so should paragon cap, maybe 1500 this season but 1800 next season and so on...

With paragon cap, you can play all classes in one season, you can compete with all classes, you have time to level up and gear every class.
You are not forces into paragon grind 3 months in a row like now.

This would also break the meta game and allows every class to play in high grifts.


Cap between 1k and 1.5k? Are you serious? This would kill the game for every player who plays the game more than 3h a day knowing what they're doing.

http://www.diablo3ladder.com/index.php?action=p1000&action2=trial&action3=3d&realm=sc&season=0#toparagon

1500plvl is being reached in three ( 3) days. What would keep the motivation up if you complete the Seasons in one week?
21/03/2016 15:20Posted by MunQ

Cap between 1k and 1.5k? Are you serious? This would kill the game for every player who plays the game more than 3h a day knowing what they're doing.

http://www.diablo3ladder.com/index.php?action=p1000&action2=trial&action3=3d&realm=sc&season=0#toparagon

1500plvl is being reached in three ( 3) days. What would keep the motivation up if you complete the Seasons in one week?


Munq the problem is this paragon hunt forces players to play only meta. Tell me do you like that you played support all season ? wouldn't you have liked to also be dps WD ? If paragon would be reached in a moderate time play maybe 1500 for this season I assure you the META this god damn aberration would disappear or at least not be the only way the play the game but maybe not this season as this twisted sword is made with no brains.

But yea maybe capping is not the best solution, all I know is that if they leave the game like it is now it will only go downfall and all they did saving it with the patch 2.0 would be meaningless.

The new current meta with 3 sup + 1 wiz is as dum as perma fear was.
21/03/2016 15:20Posted by MunQ
Cap between 1k and 1.5k? Are you serious? This would kill the game for every player who plays the game more than 3h a day knowing what they're doing.

http://www.diablo3ladder.com/index.php?action=p1000&action2=trial&action3=3d&realm=sc&season=0#toparagon

Yes, very serious! We are not talking about no-lifers who can play all day long and reach paragon 1500+ in 3 days!
They are the 0.01% of players!

1 142 players out of millions who are playing season (US + EU + ASIA + China) reached to paragon 1000+ in 3 days. Playing "72 hours" straight is not healthy.
They are very, very small fraction of all players playing season!

http://www.diablo3ladder.com/index.php?action=p1000&action2=trial&realm=sc&season=0&action3=3d&pos=57

Would it kill the game for them? Possible.
They can always play NON-season and grind paragon for the rest of their life if they play the game only for paragon.

Would it kill the game for everyone else? NO, it would probably bring in more players.

21/03/2016 15:20Posted by MunQ
1500plvl is being reached in three ( 3) days. What would keep the motivation up if you complete the Seasons in one week?

I could ask the same question, what would be the motivation for everyone else?

How many players have already quit because of the paragon madness, a lot more than we gained I guess.

OK, I see you are paragon 2200+ in season, if the cap would be 2 000, would you feel better about this idea?

Edit:
Even your own clanmates have given up the paragon grind, Empyrian has not been playing for 11 days (Last updated on 11 Mar 2016 02:57 GMT).

He's "only" 2500 compared to top player who is 3500+, I guess he just gave up since there is no way for him to catch up with others OR he finds the paragon grind so boring that he cannot do it anymore.

Either way, problem is uncapped paragon in season.

I don't know how up to date this information is but seems that most ZE players have given up the grind:
http://www.diabloprogress.com/clan/1_ze

Why, because mindless paragon grind is so fun that they cannot play anymore?
1 142 players out of millions who are playing season (US + EU + ASIA + China) reached to paragon 1000+ in 3 days. Playing "72 hours" straight is not healthy.
They are very, very small fraction of all players playing season!

Indeed. But 3 days is by no means any valid criterion for such things. In this case, it is not about how many players can or cannot do it, it is about the general objectives of the game. Capping paragons would mean
* There is no motive to keep playing, if you know that your progress is capped
* There is no meaning to endless Grift progress
* People that play more time than others have no guaranteed way to be better and feel their effort is rewarded.

So, even though *I*, personally, may not reach P1000 in a season, I can realize that capping paragons is not a good decision. Back in the old vanilla days players were crying for "unlimited progress", and were given the Paragon System!

21/03/2016 16:57Posted by Shark
He's "only" 2500 compared to top player who is 3500+, I guess he just gave up since there is no way for him to catch up with others OR he finds the paragon grind so boring that he cannot do it anymore.

Why do you conclude that he stopped playing because he can't catch up? There are so many reasons to stop playing season, but you only consider the one that suits you. Anyway, why would capping paragons to e.g. p2000 be an incentive for that player to keep playing after reaching it?

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