The Art of War: Barbarian

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Yeah I know about this one.
This one was developed from a wiz build and does not take everything into account (%damage bonus and +0.x speed on items). But it correct for basic calculations. The math is in concert with the math I showed you.
if we would need 3 hits to kill casual mobs, this build would be very promising build...
maybe little problem then i would see in party game with more players in, where you dont have to be necessarily one who deals killings blows...anyways... thanks for advice...

Pls hold in mind this is pure guessing alltough with a good amount of thinking. If blizz wants they could increase it by double and say its just hard as that. We need to wait and see what crazy difficulty level they made. The last developer diaries made clear that they are set on the idea to make us all pay in inferno.^^

And lets say you came to inferno with 1000k strength and a weapon with half the base damage you end up with 1/4 of the damage I made up. So equipment will be cruical and can change everything.

But I also hope it will work well.

Listen up giz!

I was able to confirm a nice piece of information right now.

All you barbs who love to dual wield get another little bonus for your dps from the mechanic:

If your weapon holds +0.x attacks per second than this bonus is applied on both weapons! for the base weapon speed. This is a major dps increase if you go for high attack speed..what should be the case if you dw.


Main hand: Dagger 1.4 base speed +0.14 attacks per second affix
Off hand: Dagger 1.4 base speed +0.16 attack speed per second affix

Speed Calculation:
Main Hand: (1.4+0.3)*1.15=1.96
Off Hand: (1.4+0.3)*1.15=1.96

In this case dw gives an 25% dps increase over one handed +shields.

As such a bonus can not be found on a shield it is a dw only bonus.

Edit: Some additional info concerning mob health.

I can still not determine the absolut amount of health inferno mobs will have but I made some observations concernig relative mob health.

Compared to a "standard" mob like a skeleton warrior:

Big Enemy: 4 to 6 time compared to standard hp
Champion Pack: each 5 times the hp of base monster class.
Boss Enemy: 8 to 10 times the hp of the base monster class
Boss Minions: each 2 times the hp of the base monster class

These values will most likely stay like this even in inferno as the balance of the mobs should stay comparable. Hopefully.
Be happy.

Yay! DW starts to look not so bad. But, it was pretty obvious that DW can't suck compared to 1H+S or 2H, otherwise what would be the point?

Community Help:

I need some numbers! Can anybody tell me how many HP Unburied (the big guys from cathedral) Champpion, Minions and boss monster have?

I know my posted number sdo not fit big enemy boss/champion mobs as an unburied boss would have ~50-70% HP of the skeleton king.

If you have some numbers pls tell me.

Another note: Channeled skills resource costs. After some thinking I'm starting to ask my self how do you want to support a channeled skill with 4 attacks per second speed?

Ancient Rage -the mighty high cooldown skills

Barbarian are known to hold a grudge even over generations and over the boundries of death. The high cooldwon skills of the barb do use this imense energy to perform outrages deeds. So never anger a barb or he will kick your !@# even out of the grave.

The high CD skills are controversal. On one side they are extremely powerful. One allone can end a battle in a few seconds or turn a hard fight into an walk in the park. On the other side the high CD does prevent the use at all times. After using it a big part of your build is not avaible to you. The third point is that the slot you use for the high CD skill does prevent the use of another damaging or supporting skill. This leads to the conclusion that these skills should only be used in setups that are tailored around them. More than this the use of two of them is not a bad idea at all if you think about using the passive Boon of Bul-Kathos with the 30 seconds CD reduction. You will limit yourself as long the CD is on and your performance will be worse than other builds but on the other hand you will be able to use extreme force in situations that would otherwise overcome normal builds.

Shattering the ground around you and producing an 18 yards aoe field for 8 seconds that deals 250% fire MAIN HAND WEAPON DAMAGE every second to all enemies inside of it. To get the most of it use a slow two handed weapon. CD is 120 seconds and costs are 50 fury. Gather a group of mobs around you or jump right into the middle of a huge pack and unleash this beast to see them all fall. Even normal boss mobs should not be able to withstand this damage with avarage gear. This skill is the best example for the instant defuse of an situation with a high CD skill. The main problem of the skill is not the damage but your own mind set. Once you activated it you can not use it a long time. So you will be cautious to use it. But if you do not use it often the skill loses in performance. You always need to make the decision when it is valid to drop the bomb. The base fury cost can be a problem for low fury generating builds if you hope to unleash the skill at the beginning of an fight. Keep that in mind.

Giant's Stride: A small aoe around you that deals 65% MAIN HAND WEAPON DAMAGE every second. Basic damage increase for the skill and very potent. If you can manage to stay in melee you can increase your damage ouput quiet a bit.

Chilling Earth: Heavy snare and cold damage. Drop it and run away while your enemies can not follow you. A strong defense upgrade and useful for more hit and run style builds. Can safe you more than once in inferno as the slowed rare and champion packs get damage and you can get away to plan your next attack. On frst glance very strong for PvP but nearly all classes can somehow teleport/move fast away, you need to stun them to hold them in the area.

The Mountain's Call: No fury cost and 105 sconds CD. For me the best rune without a doubt. Shorter CD in combination with Boon will give you a 75 seconds CD. This is really nice for such a heavy weapon. The no fury cost is also good as it allows more tactical and free use.

Aftershocks: Again bad description. Extra damage in the area after the end of EQ. Duration is not clear. If you have a stand your ground build you can extend the damage of EQ and take down even the hardest foes (besides act bosse etc). The knockbak will give you a bit defense as the mobs get shacken around. If you prefer more damage per use than more uses from Mountain's Call choose this rune.

Path of Fire: Bad description..again. Damage in front of you for some time. Basically like Aftershocks but it moves with you. The some reasoning too.

Call of the Ancients:

All d2 vets know those guys too well. Now they will fight with us and help to cleanse sanctuary from evil. No wonder, Arreat is destroyed and they have no where to go and like to hang around where is some fun. 120 second CD and 15 seconds duration. They are time limited pets with 60% base damage each and a nice set of attack skills. They can die by mob damage before the end of the skill time. They are blocker and very good in dealing single target and aoe dps. The one major problem, like with all pet skills is the missing control. The performance may be good or bad you can not take control over their actions. You need to hope that the AI does its best. In PvP definitly a dangerous skill when you meet an enemy without good CC.
Very useful in high diff as they really deal high damage and most importantly hold those crazy mobs a bit away.

The Council Rises: 10% more damage and 100% more armor. The blocker rune. Your old bearded friends will life far longer and so can take the heat of you even in inferno and in the midst of battle. For high end difficulty the best way. Also a good PvP rune as it allows your ancients to harras your enemies without getting destroyed so easily.

Duty to the Clan: Longer duration equals more blocking and more overall damage. You could say a basic perfomance rune. If you have a high armor count you do not have to worry that they die and so use this rune to hold the tide for whole 20 seconds. The best rune for overall use but in inferno those old guys may die before they the time is up.

Korlic's Might: Powerfull but how often does he use it and at how many enemies. On a good day it may decimate whole grps but on a bad day it may not help much. Its more a gamble as the Charge must be used with good positioning to be powerful. Duty to the clan seems better.

Madawc's Madness: High aoe dps. with the far higher area compared to the Charge the better aoe damage rune. Take it to improve your aoe dps and hope he aims well.

Talic's Anger: This one is nice. Movement and high damage in a small aoe. Definitly useful even against smaller mob counts. Rivals with the Madness rune but seems to be the better tactical rune as the follow up WW from Talic should hit the mark. I would choose it over Madness and even over Duty to the Clan.

Wrath of the Berserker
You become the incernation of the wrath of your people. You are reaaaaaaaally angry. In a way you could call this skill the essence of the barbarian and the real king of all barbarian skills. Increased crit helps with many mechanics and increases damage. Increased attack speed allows more damage and increased fury generation. Higher movement shorten travel time and so increase real average dps. Increased dodge helps to stay alive and to stand your ground while you split skulls and smash demons. The only thing that hurts is the 15 seconds duration. With 120 seconds CD you need to ask yourself when to use it. The problem is the same as with Earthquake. also the boni are nice they are not as world changing as the other skill in this grp. This will cange heavily with the choosen runes. The initialy 50 fury costs can give you a headache if you want to start a battle with it. CD fury generators with fury runes may help here. In normal combat you should be able to afford it.
For PvP it is a gamble skill. If you can use it without hindrance you can make people hurt like no tomorow but everybody with a bit of a brain will CC you are go for a run the second you turn bad.
IMPORTANT: This skill makes you imune to CC from mobs. Frozen, fear, knockback, jailor all do not work on you. This does increase the worth of the skill by ten fold for high end gameplay.

Arreat's Wail: 430% damage and knockback. Better than nothing but honestly no match in any way for the other runes. Take it when you get it and drop once the other runes become avaible.

Insanity: 100% increased damage. Pls put your seatbelts on we are going to kick some $%^.
If not for other damage boosting skills a pure doubleing of our damage. You will deal more than 30 seconds worth of your damage in only 15 seconds. This will make boss fights really short. The overall best rune as it helps with aoe and single target damage. In PvP you will anihilate any oposition if you can get the hold on them. Use snares and stuns and than drop Insanity and end the fight before anybody can stop you.

Slaughter: 150% damage in 15 yards on crit proc. You will never see a grp of mobs fall so dam fast as with this skill and a high crit setup. A WW build that uses this will cut through everything in the vicinity in a matter of seconds. If you have already SS in your build Insanity is most likely better as the big aoe is enough. But HotA or WW builds or even Weapon Throw setups should think about this one. Problem is that you need very high crit to make it work and this can only achieved with VERY good gear.

Striding Giant: 60% dodge from one skill. This is a massive defense increase and may be a good choice in th beginning of inferno when you face act bosses or high dmaging boss mobs. Take Ignore ain into your setup and you can get 22 second of 60-65% damage reduction. In high end gear and balanced builds you should be able to stand your ground against bosses and so make way for Insanity. HC characters should take a look at this one too. Very useful to counter rare and champion grps in inferno. The ability to stay close to deal damage is more than worth the less damage compared to Insanity. Less damage is better than no damage.

Thrive in Chaos: The basic for fury centered builds. I talked about it in the fury strategy section so only a short comment. Because of the CC imunity this rune becomes extremely strong as you can achieve full up time for a champion fight and so can defuse at least some really bad enchantment combinations. You need high fury gain AND fury consumption. As it turns out the skill works only with fury that is stored in the globe and not generated while at 100% fury.
Fury strategy:

Done. For now. All skills are in the strategy part.

After release I have to go through them and update all new infos and fill all knowledge holes left right now.
what is the sickness of hello -.- each time

made me rofl :D
Hello rhaloz,

first of all thy for all informations. i wanna ask u this what are u thinking about dex ?

answer it at your topic (here i mean) if u can, we dont need to bump up old topic.

Hmmm dex for monks and dh is the question as it is not so important to us (although not not important...).

Funny thing. Yesterday I snooped around a site with a basic gear calculator and I faound out that you can if you really try get up to 3k dex. Now this is a number that would break the game in half.

First I want you to take a look at the dodge mechanics here in the thread for info how several dodge sources are added together.

Besides that you are right basically. That is why I right now strongly believe that there is a diminishing return for dex stacking dodge gain. After you hit the 10% and you get the 0.0025 factor the factor also gets smaller the more dex you get. This is the only way to prevent dodge overflow. I guess around 50% dodge from dex will be the absolut maximum you can get. Much enough if you think about the fact that dh and monk get also damage boost from this stat.

Facts stays that a high dex monk with dodge skill set can reach 70-75% perma dodge (if not capped). PvP is still ahead in the future and we do not know how things will work there but pls keep in mind that a high def barb can achieve armor mitigation high enough to get 95% total defense with a shield. The question is how chars without insane defense will be able to beat such a thing.

My first char is a defense monk and he will beat inferno that I'm sure of. High dodge is fun, high armor is fun too.

a tribute.

He was still runing. It must been over a half an hour now.
The small figure was still moving across the green plaines towards the shadowed mountain side. Even with the telescope it was hard to make out any distinct details of the person. Only the reflections of the setting sun told Thobas that the person down there was dressed in heavy steel. The sun drenched the the vale and the plains in crimson light.
Like thick blood. Like our blood that will be spilled tonight. Thobas thought by himself.
And he was still runing.

"Thobas." the joung voice came from the ladder. " Shouldn't you watching the other side?"
Without turning around Thobas answered, "There is nothing to see. Its not as something will change. They are still there. You can heare them good enough." With a short sigh he put the telescop down and turned around to see the face of the little boy with the overflowing red hair. "I told you a hundered times you are not allowed to climb up the watchtower. What if you loose hold and break your neck? Your mother would skin me alive." The joke felt empty as a part of his brain constructed an image of what those beasts behind the wall would do to them once they breached the defense of the outpost.
"I'm ten years now I won't fall!" the boy answered agiatated. "I just wanted to say goodbye to you. Mother said we need to leave now, before nightfall." he calmed down and looked in the dircetion of the plaines. "You are looking for the reinforcment from Fadh? They must be really close now"
Thobas looked in the honest eyes of the boy and could not bring himself to tell the truth.
"Yeah they are always a bit slow in Fadh, those plaine people are not as tough as we are but they will be here in time and then we will defeat those monsters together!" He smiled at the boy and he could see him grininig all over the face. " Now move it, your mother is not the patient typ and you have a long way ahead." The boy noded and climbed down.
Thobas followed him with his eyes while he was climbing down and subsequently runing across the central square towards his mother and the rest of the people which would leave before the battle. Thobas eyes wandered over the square and the men in arms preparing for what was sure to come.
Of course they had sent a messenger on a fast horse to Fadh at the first sighting of the gathering beasts. But Thobas knew nobody would come to their aid if he can not see them now in the plains. Maybe the messenger failed or Fadh decided to better protect themselves than to help others. Who knows. Nobody was on the way. Nobody but this strange running figure. With this in mind he took the telescope and searched for the stranger.
It was over an hour now. And he was still runing.

As the sun was moving towards the horizont the air got colder and a setting wind started to carry the stench of the hord towards the outpost. Thobas had avoided to look towards the looming end but now he raised his head and set his eyes upon the wall and what was behind it. The vaste horde of beasts was only a few hundred meter from the main gate, and the horde was still growing. With every minute new the number of those evil creature was increasing. The outpost was well protected against raiders and smaller attacks. 200 well armed and trained soldier counted the the outpost on the "path of daggers". It was a fitting name for this mountain path. The common red rock in this area was brittle and rough and you could easily cut yourself if you tryed to climb around. The outpost with the high walls protected the plaines for many generations and was the choke point for all travel from the east. But nobody in the tribes has seen a horde like this for many generations. There were tales about gigantic armies of dark creatures lead by unspeakable demons. But it was only in tales.
Now it was real. He could here their screams and the clashing of steel as they hammer their crude weapon against shields and rotten armor. They were celebrating the comming massacre. Thobas took the telescope again and started searching for the one thing that seemed to be out of place in this tragic story. It was nearly sun set and even if the person could run all the way he would not make it in time. That he was sure about.
He needed some time to find his target. He was not where he thought he should be. He was closer, much closer now and Thobas needed only a few moments to figuere out why. The man, the gigantic man was faster than before. Now that he was closer Thobas could see the silhouette of the stranger. You could barely call this runing, it was sprinting. And he was not slowing down even so he was carring heavy armor and a shield in his left hand. How can he do this? How long was it now? Two hours straigh at least.
And he was still runing.

Darkness streched its fingers over the mountains and the screaming of the thousand beasts was growing. But Thobas did not listen. All he was minding was the darker shadow that just arrieved at the foot of the mountain. From down there a snake path was leading up to the outpost. Two hours in walking speed, 30 minutes if you run. Could he make it? No, now only a few minutes were left, Thobas could feel it. As he was thinking about the time left he lost the moving shadow for a moment. He found him again but he seemed to be higher than before. And he lost him again, and again. What was happening? He strained his eyes to see the dark in the dark. The man was climbing the mountain straight. No, the sudden movement was not climbing. He was jumping in gigantic leaps from rock to rock with out even slowing down. And then a painfull screatching sound started the battle. Thobas sliped down the ladder and started running towards the defense wall. A few stepps up the stairs and he took his position at the wall. "Why are you smiling Thobas? Have you already lost your mind?" His captain looked distressed at him. "He is coming." was all Thobas answered before the hord crushed onto the wall.
He is coming.

Pain, extreme pain. The world was made of pain. Thobas could feel the hard stone under him, as he was lying on his back, and tried to open his eyes. He was not far from the breach in the wall. The first minutes the defender really made a stand. Trained archer took down many foes before they reached the walls and sharp steel killed everything that tried to climb over the wall. But then this gigantic beast, or was it a demon, walked right through the rain of arrows and smashed the wall like it was paper. Thobas got blown away from the inpact and he was sure that most of his ribs were brocken and even worse. A few dozen men were still holding the breach and the giant fiend was dead next to it, spiked with spears and arrows. But it was hopeless. A endless flood was hammering against the few man and they already fell prey one after the other. The horde spilled inside the outpost and only a few moments were left in his life, Thobas knew. In the fading light of his dying eyes he saw a shadow moving over his body in one fluid step. The figuere loomed against the fires of the burning outpost. Thobas could see the giant shield and the massive sword was cleaving through the dark hord like a scythe through grain.
As Thobas was fading towards the dark he could not help but smile. He had stopped runing.
Who will safe you now, beasts?
Nice, now that Beta is gone I can read some short stories here te reduce D3 wait...

apart from that @Rhaloz:

do you know where you got your armor formula from?

%damage reduction = [Armor/(Armor+Moblvl*50)]*100

/wave CyberianK

The formula as from another site. I read it several months ago.
I tested the formula many times when I had the chance to see armor and armor mitigation from beta players. It was always 100% correct. Right Now I have no doubt about it.

Comment to the state of Inferno:

Now. Most of you will already know about the leaked pictures that tell us what will inferno look like. Or at least a small part of it. It is true that those numbers are not 100% certain as balancing goes on and even after release patches will come and change a few things. That said it does show us what blizz has in mind.

As I suspected and many other too inferno will be devastating. The damage output of mobs rises by ~10 times compared to hell and the hit points of the mobs also gets boosted several times. In addition special boosts to monster stats like speed will put more pressure on player. After all my comment about hell be a kindergarten compared to inferno seems to come true.

Right now I do not see a way for a barb to go inferno without a shield. The absolut monstrous damage output taht even critter mobs can produce (~20k) makes defense and high healing the most important thing in the game. On the other hand is the healthpool of the monsters not to high. With good equipment and a well thought build you should be able to kill those mobs rather fast. Problem is to stay alive while doing it.
The time we all will spend in hell just got far longer. Even the first act inferno will be so much more difficult that you need to quip yourself to a point that hell seems without challenge. Plan weeks of farming in your time table.

Even high def builds need to get high healing on equipment and have to play with care. Tactical skills and mobility will even be more useful than predicted. Fast attacks with fast fall backs will allow to deminish the dark hords step by step instead of taking on the whole mess. The major problem will be boss and champion mobs. With the high amount of enchantments and the already extreme high damage it is fairly possible that you will have to learn special tactics to cope with powerful combinations if you wish to beat those mobs.

More than for us this must be a shock for the most ranged players. The lack of extreme defense makes them vulnerable to steady ranged attacks. Avoiding melee is far easier than avoiding a skeleton archer boss with fire, lightning, teleport and nightmareish. Like in d2 many of us will fall prey not to melee but to fast high ranged damage that kills you before you even realized the danger. The ranged classes need to come upwith some very strong builds.

All players who wish to play HC. I like to repeat my advise. Play SC until you beat SC inferno. Start over with HC and go hell and stay there for a looooooooooong time. If you feel like you really know your way around in inferno and you are sure to have the needed equipent you can move on. We all will come to your funeral. Promise.

One last thing. The good point is I think that those extreme numbers also let us hope for some real bad !@# legendaries. Crazy loot for crazy people.
There was a preview of the brady games strat guide which I won't buy but there was data from an inferno Act 4 mob in there which does 170k:

1 7 0 0 0 0 damage.
This seems to be an exceptional high value as the highest other inferno mob only does 26k damage. As the mob is a cavalry mob it could be some kind of charge.

So because of that I made a quick spreadsheet calculating armor values you can get from last tier blue items:

calculated with average armor value from the item and average value of the last two armor affixes available for all items. Data is based on items from DiabloNut and mitigation formula from Rhaloz in this thread. Leaves a barbarian with 1k Str and Vit and defensive build at around 13k damage from the Armaddon. This is reduction from armor alone. Resistance will also reduce damage. And then there is %DR from melee/ranged and %Life per damage and other stuff greatly reducing those values. And we don't know about legendary items yet.
Please review.

(edit: btw does anyone have a reasonable estimate or screens of how high your base attributes will be around lvl60 inferno?)

Hehe. I have seen the picture yesterday and made the defense calculation asap to test it.

Yes I think it will one slow high damage attack you can dodge by moving.

I work with ~90% damage reduction through armor and barb passive dr.
Basically i rounded armor to two times base armor (~7k). This may be to low or to high but I think if you do it for all armor parts you will not go so much astray. Vit and srength should be far higher. Each around 1,5-2k.

The problem is getting all needed affixes on the items. Vit, Strength, armor, %hp, +%block and of course crit, critd and +health passive or on hit etc.
The numbers do say it is possible but it will be hard to pull of. Equipment will be key.

My main concern right now is act boss hard hitting special attacks. If a "normal" mob can achieve 170k what can an act boss do with his special attack?
Besides that 20k critter damage is not bad at all. With 90% we get 2000 damage per hit. If you carry a shield you can block every second strike (work with 50% block) and get overall 1k damage. With 30k hp you should be able to heal against this and to take them down.

I think for now we need to concentrate on getting hell on real farm status. After that we can dip our toes into inferno and test the waters.

Thx for your post CyberianK.
05/05/2012 13:53Posted by Rhaloz
I think for now we need to concentrate on getting hell on real farm status. After that we can dip our toes into inferno and test the waters.

That statement seems to became more accurate each second.
I am glad things seem grim in Inferno.
The higher the bar is the more satisfaction from jumping over it.

/wave Mentat. Nice to see you arround.

Because of the current situation I made a inferno test build for massive surviveability.!bVY!ZZabaZ

He is not a fast killer but he should be able to push trough act 1 with farmed hell gear. He is more or less a big block of steel with a axe on it. The tactical defense skills allow some error margin and to take on even extrem boss mobs.

With chained leap and Ignore pain you can get up to 15 seconds extreme defense, enough to clear the field or even boss mobs. What is left will get finished afterward or you retreat shortly until leap is off CD.

Because of the current situation I made a inferno test build for massive surviveability.!bVY!ZZabaZ

Nice I will definatly try that. Except maybe switch Weapons Master with Superstition. Should help against those elemental enchantments. With 4 mob affixes on Rares/Champions chance should be quite high having some elemental damage on most.
Hi Rhaloz.
I have been repairing my 2h in preparation for game release. Kek.
That build you posted should be able to withstand Inferno. A bit shy on the damage dpt, but it can sure take a lot of pain.
I have been pondering on a slight modification of my previous build, after all the "excitement/concern" about the damage output of mobs in Inferno.
Since i don´t want to go sword and board, and i do less than three HotA...
It´s the main theme if the build. Fuel/boost HotA as much as possible whilst having (hopefully) enough survivability to withstand Inferno. After "some" hours of grinding for gear in Hell, ofc.!VZb!YZaZaa

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