Pharah needs to change because she dictates picks.

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08/04/2017 21:14Posted by Korrigan
08/04/2017 21:13Posted by JaggSauce
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sure if it makes you sleep at night.
Very grown up answer. oh wait...


no i'm really just tired of repeating myself at this point... everyone has their limit.
Zen discord, then your whole team counters her.

Ana can 3 tap her in 1.6 seconds when she is discorded.
76 melts her with controlled bursts, especially when she is discorded.
Widow outright cancels Pharah.
McCree is pretty good.
Mei can land shots with moderate skill
Bastion in recon mode is as effective as 76.
Mercy with good prediction can contribute
Dva negates Pharah making it 6v 5 as she can protect Pharah's target and simultaneously all other damage, plus fly up, ram her for 25, melee for 30 and shoot her at point blank range. Dva is really all you need to do, swap one tank to dva. Pharah threat neutralized.

I often kill her as Zen, Ana and 76. Learn the ascent and descent patterns and you soon find it easy to destroy her.

The REAL issue, is the average gamer lacks vertical tracking skill. Side to side, ok, mediocre.... up and down (remember, same reason people complain about Symmetra, bunny hopping to make her harder to hit with vertical movement). No chance...

Practice aiming at vertically moving targets, my advice, be Ana, heal Genji and Pharah.... next thing you know... you can rek Genji and Pharah with 76 etc...
I'd rather help my team with team fights instead of constantly having to look up and hunt down the Pharah.
08/04/2017 20:54Posted by Equinox
08/04/2017 18:57Posted by Korrigan
So Pharah has 3 counters (your list kid, 76, McCree and Widow) yet others have more.


08/04/2017 20:36Posted by JaggSauce
Pharah -> "We need hitscan"

which equals Soldier76, McCree or Widowmaker - and that's it.


Soldier 76, Mccree, Widowmaker... Bastion. D.Va is very good against Pharah (not as much against PharMercy but that isn't the argument here). Ana can assist with taking down Pharah, Mercy and Zen effortlessly improve chances of the enemy Pharah dying. Yeah, 3. :)

You know I agree with you just you are going off topic. I think the OP meant that Phara actually force you for real to take certain pick because she gonna be dominant no matter what if no one can reliable counter her.
Instead all the other heroes that you listed indeed has counters but a bad Genji without a counter against can't be much of a problem as a bad Phara in the same situation.
09/04/2017 00:31Posted by NiMNoT
you are going off topic. I think the OP meant that Phara actually force you for real to take certain pick because she gonna be dominant no matter what if no one can reliable counter her.

I'm not going off topic tho, Pharah forces the enemy's pick as much as other heroes. You can still take her out without hitscan. Zenyatta, Mei, and a good Genji can make her life hard, with hitscan it's just a lot easier to do so. Same with the other heroes I mentioned. You can take out a Winston with other heroes but it's a lot easier with Reaper or Roadhog. Yeah, Pharah dictates picks more than other heroes, but not by far to the point it's justified to complain about it. After all, Overwatch is all about switching heroes to counter the enemy.
09/04/2017 00:46Posted by Equinox
09/04/2017 00:31Posted by NiMNoT
you are going off topic. I think the OP meant that Phara actually force you for real to take certain pick because she gonna be dominant no matter what if no one can reliable counter her.

I'm not going off topic tho, Pharah forces the enemy's pick as much as other heroes. You can still take her out without hitscan. Zenyatta, Mei, and a good Genji can make her life hard, with hitscan it's just a lot easier to do so. Same with the other heroes I mentioned. You can take out a Winston with other heroes but it's a lot easier with Reaper or Roadhog. Yeah, Pharah dictates picks more than other heroes, but not by far to the point it's justified to complain about it. After all, Overwatch is all about switching heroes to counter the enemy.

No Hitscans vs Phara = Phara win 100%
No counters vs Genji = Genji can be killed easily anyway
It takes a completely unskilled player to counter aforementioned heroes (examples being, winston vs genji, reaper vs winston/roadhog, and so on),
vs
A very decent hitscan player to take down low skill-high reward Phara.
On top of that you need at least 2-3 players to do that, otherwise she just gets healed and defended.

And there also is a clear difference between,
''Partially countered'' to ''Reliably countered''
and
''No contribution'' to ''Some contribution''

If a single hero makes 1/3 of hero pool completely helpless, other 1/3 providing very low contribution, and remaining 1/3 requiring a to fill a certain skill category,

Then the design of that hero has FAILED.

Nobody should suffer out of frustration, because they so happen choose to play any other hero that isnt hitscan since they cant do anything about it.
Pharah (and Pharmecy) is only a nuisance to people who treat this game as a basic deathmatch. If you work as a team, any Pharah can become useless.

Pro-tips to deal with a Pharah : Communication, focus, teamwork.

If you're found alone on a mad flank/if you keep trickling, yes, the Pharah will definitely kill you, but that can be said of almost every other hero...
09/04/2017 00:55Posted by NiMNoT
09/04/2017 00:46Posted by Equinox
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I'm not going off topic tho, Pharah forces the enemy's pick as much as other heroes. You can still take her out without hitscan. Zenyatta, Mei, and a good Genji can make her life hard, with hitscan it's just a lot easier to do so. Same with the other heroes I mentioned. You can take out a Winston with other heroes but it's a lot easier with Reaper or Roadhog. Yeah, Pharah dictates picks more than other heroes, but not by far to the point it's justified to complain about it. After all, Overwatch is all about switching heroes to counter the enemy.

No Hitscans vs Phara = Phara win 100%
No counters vs Genji = Genji can be killed easily anyway
Nope... Dva, she counters Pharah so hard. She easily counters Pharah, my team wins vs Pharah with Genji and Tracer Dva and Winston while I alternate sniping her as Ana and healing.

Just practice aiming. ;)
Pharah on her own doesn't pose much of a problem because generally teams always contain a hitscan or another Pharah. Even Tracer and Genji can sometimes make Pharah less of a threat if she's harrassed consistently.

Stick a Mercy on Pharah and it's a whole different matter. Even with sustained hitscan damage she'll be able to stay in the game, which is really quite ridiculous.
Idk, I don't think Pharah dictates picks any more than most. Yes, you have to get someone to shoot and kill her, but that's not just the hitscan's job, bastion, Ana and Zen, along with D.Va and another Pharah can do this.
All heroes have counters, and if they're being a pain in the bottom someone should change to one of them. Pharah only dictates picks because you expect the enemy team to currently have one, rather than wait to see before changing.
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No Hitscans vs Phara = Phara win 100%
No counters vs Genji = Genji can be killed easily anyway
Nope... Dva, she counters Pharah so hard. She easily counters Pharah, my team wins vs Pharah with Genji and Tracer Dva and Winston while I alternate sniping her as Ana and healing.

Just practice aiming. ;)

I assume you never find yet a smurfing Phara in premade with Zarya , Lucio and Mercy :-) you could barely scratch her with the heroes listed.

We won all the 3 games but hey not even Tactical Visor could kill her due all the shields , barriers and healings. kill mercy first ! Right because when I got a Phara hovering at 8 meters above my head is better try to kill mercy while Phara boosted that deals 100 dmgs each rockets right ? 400hp to be safe. It was usless anyway because there was Zarya shield.

Not saying she is op because is not the true , also we won the games . But she DICTATES enemies picks , we had to go double Hitscan .
11/04/2017 06:09Posted by NiMNoT
...Nope... Dva, she counters Pharah so hard. She easily counters Pharah, my team wins vs Pharah with Genji and Tracer Dva and Winston while I alternate sniping her as Ana and healing.

Just practice aiming. ;)

I assume you never find yet a smurfing Phara in premade with Zarya , Lucio and Mercy :-) you could barely scratch her with the heroes listed.

We won all the 3 games but hey not even Tactical Visor could kill her due all the shields , barriers and healings. kill mercy first ! Right because when I got a Phara hovering at 8 meters above my head is better try to kill mercy while Phara boosted that deals 100 dmgs each rockets right ? 400hp to be safe. It was usless anyway because there was Zarya shield.

Not saying she is op because is not the true , also we won the games . But she DICTATES enemies picks , we had to go double Hitscan .

That's not fair though, you're throwing smurfing into the mix. Of course that kinda thing happens if there's a smurf, but it has nothing to do with Pharah. Any DPS smurf would bring your team problems and you would have to focus that one guy or else you'd get destroyed. Actually you could say that most heroes can dictate picks if they're smurfs and they're outplaying everyone else.
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I assume you never find yet a smurfing Phara in premade with Zarya , Lucio and Mercy :-) you could barely scratch her with the heroes listed.

We won all the 3 games but hey not even Tactical Visor could kill her due all the shields , barriers and healings. kill mercy first ! Right because when I got a Phara hovering at 8 meters above my head is better try to kill mercy while Phara boosted that deals 100 dmgs each rockets right ? 400hp to be safe. It was usless anyway because there was Zarya shield.

Not saying she is op because is not the true , also we won the games . But she DICTATES enemies picks , we had to go double Hitscan .

That's not fair though, you're throwing smurfing into the mix. Of course that kinda thing happens if there's a smurf, but it has nothing to do with Pharah. Any DPS smurf would bring your team problems and you would have to focus that one guy or else you'd get destroyed. Actually you could say that most heroes can dictate picks if they're smurfs and they're outplaying everyone else.

Ok that was unfair but a Phara with no counters is free to throw easy rockets at anyone , D.va ain't counter her that much considering that from distance she deals almost nothing and Phara can be healed.
As Ana I can snipe yheee with ur 60 dmgs while ur team need healings.

Again most of the other heroes even without counter can be easily shutted down instead a Bad Phara without counters will do a lot of dmgs anyway forcing you to pick a Hitscan unless you want to have a rein without shield.

She is in the category of unhealthy heroes for the game. Why ? Because it force you certain picks and totally neglecting others.
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I assume you never find yet a smurfing Phara in premade with Zarya , Lucio and Mercy :-) you could barely scratch her with the heroes listed.

We won all the 3 games but hey not even Tactical Visor could kill her due all the shields , barriers and healings. kill mercy first ! Right because when I got a Phara hovering at 8 meters above my head is better try to kill mercy while Phara boosted that deals 100 dmgs each rockets right ? 400hp to be safe. It was usless anyway because there was Zarya shield.

Not saying she is op because is not the true , also we won the games . But she DICTATES enemies picks , we had to go double Hitscan .

That's not fair though, you're throwing smurfing into the mix. Of course that kinda thing happens if there's a smurf, but it has nothing to do with Pharah. Any DPS smurf would bring your team problems and you would have to focus that one guy or else you'd get destroyed. Actually you could say that most heroes can dictate picks if they're smurfs and they're outplaying everyone else.


again you seem to ignore the Mercy/Zarya/Zenyatta/Lucio stacking, making Pharah completely and utterly invincible... until you address that argument, the rest of your arguments are irrelevant
I play Pharah..Quite a lot, The angle of OP'ness (bias aside) best comes from people that play her often and can tell you what they lose too, rather than teams that lose against her who don't act appropriately

I wouldn't have said only Soldier, McCree and Widow... Though I will say that Soldier gives me the most problems.

Bastion, Hanzo, Tobjorn also deal quite well, not always on their own, but on defense, If I saw Bastion and a Hanzo, I wouldn't bother, i'd switch straight away... and the right support heros can cause problems too in combination, an Anna or Discord from Zen all make it difficult for me to be as effective as I would like.

Lastly, if she could fly indefinitely then maybe there's more of an argument, but unless you know the maps really well, where you can and can't get away with flying high, you have to land, and some other heroes can really capitalize on that, Genji, Dva for example.
11/04/2017 09:54Posted by JaggSauce
again you seem to ignore the Mercy/Zarya/Zenyatta/Lucio stacking, making Pharah completely and utterly invincible... until you address that argument, the rest of your arguments are irrelevant


Whoa there, the team had a proper team composition that synergised well with their main damage dealer? On top of that they had proper communication? Surely the said character must be OP, we definitely can't consider the fact that proper teamplay wins games.
11/04/2017 09:54Posted by JaggSauce
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That's not fair though, you're throwing smurfing into the mix. Of course that kinda thing happens if there's a smurf, but it has nothing to do with Pharah. Any DPS smurf would bring your team problems and you would have to focus that one guy or else you'd get destroyed. Actually you could say that most heroes can dictate picks if they're smurfs and they're outplaying everyone else.


again you seem to ignore the Mercy/Zarya/Zenyatta/Lucio stacking, making Pharah completely and utterly invincible... until you address that argument, the rest of your arguments are irrelevant

What's irrelevant is you mentioning the Mercy/Zarya/Zen combo. When you're playing against a smurf of course chances are you're gonna lose, no matter what hero the smurf is playing. Trying to have a solid argument but then throwing in smurfing doesn't make sense because it's not a proper argument. Most heroes can seem like they're OP when a smurf is playing them and destroying the team, doesn't make it true. I was pointing out the way his argument was unfair because it applies to all heroes in the game. And yeah you're right I'm ignoring the argument because I'm no broken record, people can think what they like but that doesn't make it true. No point in me repeating what other people have already said, so you just go on with your overwatch nerfing crusade or whatever it is you're bragging about doing if that's what you want to do with your life.
11/04/2017 10:00Posted by MintSamurai
11/04/2017 09:54Posted by JaggSauce
again you seem to ignore the Mercy/Zarya/Zenyatta/Lucio stacking, making Pharah completely and utterly invincible... until you address that argument, the rest of your arguments are irrelevant


Whoa there, the team had a proper team composition that synergised well with their main damage dealer? On top of that they had proper communication? Surely the said character must be OP, we definitely can't consider the fact that proper teamplay wins games.


i never mentioned any grouping/teaming or communication.

and yeah, i guess you could call it a "proper" team composition, just like D.va used to be a "proper" character who wasn't at all overpowered... don't think i don't remember our little debates... Yes Pharah is Overpowered, when you stack Mercy on top of her she is insanely overpowered, when you stack Zarya and Lucio or Zenyatta on top of Mercy and Pharah they both become invincible.

are you going to tell me that's fair?
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again you seem to ignore the Mercy/Zarya/Zenyatta/Lucio stacking, making Pharah completely and utterly invincible... until you address that argument, the rest of your arguments are irrelevant

What's irrelevant is you mentioning the Mercy/Zarya/Zen combo. When you're playing against a smurf of course chances are you're gonna lose, no matter what hero the smurf is playing. Trying to have a solid argument but then throwing in smurfing doesn't make sense because it's not a proper argument. Most heroes can seem like they're OP when a smurf is playing them and destroying the team, doesn't make it true. I was pointing out the way his argument was unfair because it applies to all heroes in the game. And yeah you're right I'm ignoring the argument because I'm no broken record, people can think what they like but that doesn't make it true. No point in me repeating what other people have already said, so you just go on with your overwatch nerfing crusade or whatever it is you're bragging about doing if that's what you want to do with your life.


i never mentioned smurfs in this debate, we're not talking about smurfs here, stop making this about smurfs.

address the argument.

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