Unfair comparison between Hanzo and Widowmaker

General Discussion
Ever since Widowmaker got a nerf in June 2016, I've been wondering when Hanzo will get his balance changes? Because he is far more superior than the other dps sniper, Widowmaker. The only thing that is beneficial with Widow is that her aim zooms-in a bit.

Let's look at Hanzo's benefits:

• Subdued shots, you can hardly hear the shots coming from Hanzo.

• The arrows can hardly be seen.

• Sonic Arrow - Basically Widowmaker's ult. Doesn't cover the entire map, but can be used more frequently.

• Scatter Arrow - Doesn't take much skill to get a 100% kill against a non-tank enemy player.

•Dragonstrike - One of the best ultimate in-game. Deals high damage for a long time, has an incredibly long range, moves through structures.

_______________________________________________

These aspects for Widowmaker are:

• Her sniper shots are superloud, definitely loudest in-game. An enemy Widow can often be heard across the first phase of a map. From spawn to the first objective.

• Enemy Widow's sniper bullets are leaving a red trail after it which last for like 1,5 seconds. Making it easy for the enemy players to track where the bullets are coming from.

• Once you generated your ultimate - it's just an improved version of an ability Hanzo have, Sonic Arrow.
I think Jeff has said they are looking into reworking Hanzo.
I think they both potentially need a rework ..widow to be a bit more attacking either reduced scatter on smg and quick scope or to have a better way to approach the precipice
08/01/2018 15:51Posted by ItsMrMgcee
I think Jeff has said they are looking into reworking Hanzo.
A rework though, not a nerf. They mentioned Scatter Arrow being misused against tanks, but also said if they remove it that they would replace it with something just as powerful or useful. Hanzo iz da Manzo.
I'm completely with you on the rest, but

08/01/2018 15:48Posted by Punie
•Dragonstrike - One of the best ultimate in-game. Deals high damage for a long time, has an incredibly long range, moves through structures.


It's incredibly easy to not get killed by Dragonstrike, it's one of the easiest ults to miss. Clearly not one of the best.
08/01/2018 16:51Posted by KorabFusian
I'm completely with you on the rest, but

08/01/2018 15:48Posted by Punie
•Dragonstrike - One of the best ultimate in-game. Deals high damage for a long time, has an incredibly long range, moves through structures.


It's incredibly easy to not get killed by Dragonstrike, it's one of the easiest ults to miss. Clearly not one of the best.


Still a lot better than Widow's..
I'd like to see them replace Widow's poison gas mine with a stun. That way she can use it to protect herself a bit more, giving her time to either evacuate or get off a shot when she gets jumped.
I agree,nerf Junkrat
Widow is fine.

Hanzo isn't. He needs a rework.

08/01/2018 16:51Posted by KorabFusian
It's incredibly easy to not get killed by Dragonstrike, it's one of the easiest ults to miss. Clearly not one of the best.
That depends where and how you're using it. Dragonstrike can go from super easy to dodge, to impossible to dodge.
Yet Widow is Hitscan, and Hanzo is projectile, which is the biggest and most important difference.
That and that Widow actually has the means to escape with the rope (should she get flanked), Hanzo has to duel.

I know Hanzo is classified as sniper, but he is weaker in long range duels than alot of character (emphasis on duel, where both the Hanzo and the opponent spot eachother).

Hanzo is great at killing or dealing damage at distances on unaware targets, as soon as they spot him It becomes hard to deal with them (If they move around), unless you Scatter.

Which is also why alot of Grandmasters have said that they rather use Hanzo in medium ranged combat (gives the opponents less time to dodge), and some Grandmasters even enjoy dueling on even ground (not using the high ground to their advantage, because It gives the enemy more depths to dodge).

So he might classify as a sniper, but some of the better Hanzos utilize him more of a mid-ranged hero, because they get more value out of It (not missing 8-9 out of every 10 arrows).

Both characters have carry potential, but it's WAY more common to see Widows doing all the work, as opposed to a Hanzo, that just goes to show that a one-shot Hitscan sniper is so much better than Hanzos bow, that It does not really matter that Hanzos Scatter arrow is stupidly broken.
Since Widows will both be picked more often, and carry more games (both in % and cause they're more out there).

Hanzo is in such a bad state, that even Jeff said that they're looking into Scatter (because it's a cheap ability, and not used as intended), but If they're to replace It, they're gonna add an equally strong ability just cause Hanzo is currently lackluster.

Kinda funny when a character is so far behind, the devs can't even remove a stupidly strong ability from that hero, because it's that ability alone that ALMOST keeps Hanzo on par with other heroes.

But yet you think his OP.

Pretty much all Hitscan weapons have some drawbacks.
Soldiers is the standard, medium damage, good rate of fire, an overall good all-around Hitscan.

Reaper and Tracer are Hitscan, but they're limited by close range, and Tracer is limited in ammo (reloads 40-50% of the time).

McCrees weapon is godlike in close combat, good in medium, but the damage fall off on McCrees Peacekeeper is pretty much the worst in the game, so you can't kill people constantly unless you can get consistent headshots on that range.

So Soldiers weapon is good overall, but Hitscan weapons are usually limited to balance things, except Widows sniper is Hitscan, and can one-shot.
Sure It has some delays before you can 1-shot, roughly a sec.

But Widow 1 or 2 shots 80% of the roster from any range, with a Hitscan, that's her strength.
That + mobility/escape If people get close.

If anything, Hanzo could use some love, even though i agree that Scatter should be reworked.
Thank you for taking the time to write what I couldn't be bothered to.
+1

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09/01/2018 07:13Posted by Grahn
Yet Widow is Hitscan, and Hanzo is projectile, which is the biggest and most important difference.
That and that Widow actually has the means to escape with the rope (should she get flanked), Hanzo has to duel.

I know Hanzo is classified as sniper, but he is weaker in long range duels than alot of character (emphasis on duel, where both the Hanzo and the opponent spot eachother).

Hanzo is great at killing or dealing damage at distances on unaware targets, as soon as they spot him It becomes hard to deal with them (If they move around), unless you Scatter.

Which is also why alot of Grandmasters have said that they rather use Hanzo in medium ranged combat (gives the opponents less time to dodge), and some Grandmasters even enjoy dueling on even ground (not using the high ground to their advantage, because It gives the enemy more depths to dodge).

So he might classify as a sniper, but some of the better Hanzos utilize him more of a mid-ranged hero, because they get more value out of It (not missing 8-9 out of every 10 arrows).

Both characters have carry potential, but it's WAY more common to see Widows doing all the work, as opposed to a Hanzo, that just goes to show that a one-shot Hitscan sniper is so much better than Hanzos bow, that It does not really matter that Hanzos Scatter arrow is stupidly broken.
Since Widows will both be picked more often, and carry more games (both in % and cause they're more out there).

Hanzo is in such a bad state, that even Jeff said that they're looking into Scatter (because it's a cheap ability, and not used as intended), but If they're to replace It, they're gonna add an equally strong ability just cause Hanzo is currently lackluster.

Kinda funny when a character is so far behind, the devs can't even remove a stupidly strong ability from that hero, because it's that ability alone that ALMOST keeps Hanzo on par with other heroes.

But yet you think his OP.

Pretty much all Hitscan weapons have some drawbacks.
Soldiers is the standard, medium damage, good rate of fire, an overall good all-around Hitscan.

Reaper and Tracer are Hitscan, but they're limited by close range, and Tracer is limited in ammo (reloads 40-50% of the time).

McCrees weapon is godlike in close combat, good in medium, but the damage fall off on McCrees Peacekeeper is pretty much the worst in the game, so you can't kill people constantly unless you can get consistent headshots on that range.

So Soldiers weapon is good overall, but Hitscan weapons are usually limited to balance things, except Widows sniper is Hitscan, and can one-shot.
Sure It has some delays before you can 1-shot, roughly a sec.

But Widow 1 or 2 shots 80% of the roster from any range, with a Hitscan, that's her strength.
That + mobility/escape If people get close.

If anything, Hanzo could use some love, even though i agree that Scatter should be reworked.

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08/01/2018 15:48Posted by Punie
Ever since Widowmaker got a nerf in June 2016, I've been wondering when Hanzo will get his balance changes? Because he is far more superior than the other dps sniper, Widowmaker. The only thing that is beneficial with Widow is that her aim zooms-in a bit.

Let's look at Hanzo's benefits:

• Subdued shots, you can hardly hear the shots coming from Hanzo.

• The arrows can hardly be seen.

• Sonic Arrow - Basically Widowmaker's ult. Doesn't cover the entire map, but can be used more frequently.

• Scatter Arrow - Doesn't take much skill to get a 100% kill against a non-tank enemy player.

•Dragonstrike - One of the best ultimate in-game. Deals high damage for a long time, has an incredibly long range, moves through structures.

_______________________________________________

These aspects for Widowmaker are:

• Her sniper shots are superloud, definitely loudest in-game. An enemy Widow can often be heard across the first phase of a map. From spawn to the first objective.

• Enemy Widow's sniper bullets are leaving a red trail after it which last for like 1,5 seconds. Making it easy for the enemy players to track where the bullets are coming from.

• Once you generated your ultimate - it's just an improved version of an ability Hanzo have, Sonic Arrow.


Seeing that you have a grand total of 1 hour Hanzo experience, we all understand that you just make things up.

First of all, Hanzo is a Mid- to close range projectile hero. His range is nowhere close to Widowmaker, and Hanzo's shots are MUCH harder to land than with Widowmaker, who is a hit-scan hero. Hanzo is not even the same role as Widowmaker. Hanzo is a off-tank buster and DPS buster, while Widowmaker is a backline support killer.

Further, Hanzo sonic arrow is not even close to Widow's ultimate. Sonic arrow only works on flat surfaces and have a VERY limited range. Also, sonic arrow is extremely bugged, in many cases not working at all on many walls. Last, scatter arrow DO takes skill to land. Scatter arrow is VERY inconsistent and bugged. Placement of the shot must be exact spot on to get the kill, and cooldown is VERY long. Saying that scatter is a 100% kill is pure crap talk and made up. Please record me a video of a match where you 100% kill with scatter arrow. I play quite alot of Hanzo, I can get maybe 2-3 kills with scatter in a match. The rest is real arrow shots.
It's funny that this gaming giant can't spend any resources to dedicate people to actually fix Hanzo. Whatever problems he might have. It's not a week long problem. It's not even "only" year long problem. Like yes, Jeff can talk about it as much as he want but still, almost two years of scatter bullXYZ with excuses like "But he is nothing without this ability and... we would have to think about something else..."

Really? For this long? P_P
I know you sugarcoat It some, because you wanna drill in your point.

But saying that Hanzos ultimate is one of the best is not simply true.

Hanzos ultimate ultimatly (no pun intended) suffers because It tries to be both an offensive ult (damage) and a defensive ult (area denial), which in the end turns It into a rather mediocre one.

Other defensive heroes are better at area denial (Torb, Mei etc), and many offensive ultimates deal more damage, but more importantly: More DPS, and is not limited to a straigth line.

The only thing Hanzo got going for him is that you can get It quite often, which should also put more emphasis on It being nothing special.

Whereas people tend to underestimate Widows ultimate because It has no direct damage value.
I'm not gonna pretend like it's amazing in any way, but it's still severly underrated.

Especially for a coordinated team, because If you're talking with people, you can easily decide what target to focus when they round a corner, because everyone will be able to spot said hero effortlessly (this can be said about Hanzos sonic arrow to some extent aswell).

But If all else, Widows ultimate plays MOSTLY in to her hands, being a good Widow, having a one-shot hitscan weapon + wallhack will essentially mean: Either you take people out just as they round corners, or the enemy will respect that Widow enough to simply hold of any pushes for the remainder of the time the ultimate is done, which essentially makes It a decent/good zoning out ultimate.
Plus you will inevitably delay any flank attempts on either you or your support player.

People tend to think it's a lackluster ultimate simply because It never shows up in the killfeed, and because It does not have a flashy icon either.
Which means even If Widowmaker got 2-3 kills, thanks to her ult, It will still be seen as regular kills.
Whereas If Hanzo (or anyone really) get 2-3 kills with their ultimate, and the killfeed shows 3 flashy icons, you're gonna think: That was a good ultimate.

In the end, Hanzos ultimate is kind of a hybrid, not amazing in area control, and not amazing in pure damage or DPS (atleast not as a solo ult), so it's not bad, but far from one of the best.

Widows is not necesserally amazing either, but it's one of the better, maybe even the best zoning out ulti in the game, and It will delay pushes and flankers.

People tend to underestimate Symmetras shield generator for the same reason, It has no direct damage to It (no damage at all really).
But fails to sometimes realize that 75 points of extra health can make many of the heroes so much harder to kill.
Makes the healers and flankers so much harder to deal with.
(No one likes dealing with a 225 healthed Tracer, or 275 healthed Genji, or 275 healthed supports/healers to begin with).
It's the loud sound and visual bullets of Widowmaker that makes it unfair, yet no one acknowledge it. Rather focus on the abilities.


Seeing that you have a grand total of 1 hour Hanzo experience, we all understand that you just make things up.

First of all, Hanzo is a Mid- to close range projectile hero. His range is nowhere close to Widowmaker, and Hanzo's shots are MUCH harder to land than with Widowmaker, who is a hit-scan hero. Hanzo is not even the same role as Widowmaker. Hanzo is a off-tank buster and DPS buster, while Widowmaker is a backline support killer.

Further, Hanzo sonic arrow is not even close to Widow's ultimate. Sonic arrow only works on flat surfaces and have a VERY limited range. Also, sonic arrow is extremely bugged, in many cases not working at all on many walls. Last, scatter arrow DO takes skill to land. Scatter arrow is VERY inconsistent and bugged. Placement of the shot must be exact spot on to get the kill, and cooldown is VERY long. Saying that scatter is a 100% kill is pure crap talk and made up. Please record me a video of a match where you 100% kill with scatter arrow. I play quite alot of Hanzo, I can get maybe 2-3 kills with scatter in a match. The rest is real arrow shots.


Expected Hanzo mains to pop up and defend it by saying that he is hard to play. The few hours I've played him, I've just mimicked other "good" Hanzo's by just standing at the edge of a wall and just launch arrows at the direction the enemy is located. A real scrub tactic, but it works. I don't even try to aim and still accidentally kill enemy players, just like other Hanzo's accidentally kill me.

I don't play him because he is the only hero where you accidentally kill enemy players. Would never work with Widowmaker because the enemy players can SEE and HEAR where the bullets are coming from, something which does not apply to Hanzo.

Just search for any good Hanzo player on Youtube and you will see them one shot slow dps heroes like Reaper, Soldier etc by using Scatter in front of their feet.

Want a hard hero that one shots? Then play Doomfist.

09/01/2018 17:18Posted by Grahn
I know you sugarcoat It some, because you wanna drill in your point.

But saying that Hanzos ultimate is one of the best is not simply true.


Sombra's ult goes through Reinhardt and Orisa's shields, even disables them, but not through structures and has quite large range.

Tracer's ult is hard to land, has a very limited range and the explosion isn't that big. Can be blocked with shields.

Soldier 76's ult can be LoS'ed. Can be blocked with shields.

McCree's ult can be LoS'ed. Can be blocked with shields.

Genji's ult requires you to be agile movement wise and have quick reactions.

Reaper's ult requires you to be in the middle of the battle. Hero doesn't have much health, so gets easily killed during ult. Can also be LoS'ed, limited range, can be blocked with shields.

D.VA's ult can be seen with a warning sign on the screen. Even shows if you will take damage or not. Can be LoS'ed, can be blocked with shields.

Pharah's ult stops your movement, can be LoS'ed, can be blocked with shields.

Bastion's ult can be be LoS'ed and blocked with shields.

Junkrat's ult can be countered by shooting the rip-tire. Doesn't have much hp. The explosion has quite limited range, can be blocked with shields and doesn't go through LoS.

Meanwhile Hanzo's ult goes through structures, goes through all sort of enemy barriers. Mei's wall, Winston, Reinhardt and Orisa's shields. It has unlimited range and all it requires for you is to stand back and face whereever you want to launch it.

I'm not saying it's THE BEST ult, but it's clearly one of the best ultimates. Making Widowmaker's ult look like a pile of !@#$ in comparison, especially since Hanzo's Sonic Arrow already have a similar effect.
hanzo is projectile......widow is hitscan....

the issue with widow is how many counter she has while hanzo is about his projectile not being reliable
Turn Scatter into a small AoE (think of an explosive arrow) and boom,fixed,no more rng oneshotting bull!@#$
09/01/2018 07:13Posted by Grahn
Yet Widow is Hitscan, and Hanzo is projectile, which is the biggest and most important difference.
That and that Widow actually has the means to escape with the rope (should she get flanked), Hanzo has to duel.

I know Hanzo is classified as sniper, but he is weaker in long range duels than alot of character (emphasis on duel, where both the Hanzo and the opponent spot eachother).

Hanzo is great at killing or dealing damage at distances on unaware targets, as soon as they spot him It becomes hard to deal with them (If they move around), unless you Scatter.

Which is also why alot of Grandmasters have said that they rather use Hanzo in medium ranged combat (gives the opponents less time to dodge), and some Grandmasters even enjoy dueling on even ground (not using the high ground to their advantage, because It gives the enemy more depths to dodge).

So he might classify as a sniper, but some of the better Hanzos utilize him more of a mid-ranged hero, because they get more value out of It (not missing 8-9 out of every 10 arrows).

Both characters have carry potential, but it's WAY more common to see Widows doing all the work, as opposed to a Hanzo, that just goes to show that a one-shot Hitscan sniper is so much better than Hanzos bow, that It does not really matter that Hanzos Scatter arrow is stupidly broken.
Since Widows will both be picked more often, and carry more games (both in % and cause they're more out there).

Hanzo is in such a bad state, that even Jeff said that they're looking into Scatter (because it's a cheap ability, and not used as intended), but If they're to replace It, they're gonna add an equally strong ability just cause Hanzo is currently lackluster.

Kinda funny when a character is so far behind, the devs can't even remove a stupidly strong ability from that hero, because it's that ability alone that ALMOST keeps Hanzo on par with other heroes.

But yet you think his OP.

Pretty much all Hitscan weapons have some drawbacks.
Soldiers is the standard, medium damage, good rate of fire, an overall good all-around Hitscan.

Reaper and Tracer are Hitscan, but they're limited by close range, and Tracer is limited in ammo (reloads 40-50% of the time).

McCrees weapon is godlike in close combat, good in medium, but the damage fall off on McCrees Peacekeeper is pretty much the worst in the game, so you can't kill people constantly unless you can get consistent headshots on that range.

So Soldiers weapon is good overall, but Hitscan weapons are usually limited to balance things, except Widows sniper is Hitscan, and can one-shot.
Sure It has some delays before you can 1-shot, roughly a sec.

But Widow 1 or 2 shots 80% of the roster from any range, with a Hitscan, that's her strength.
That + mobility/escape If people get close.

If anything, Hanzo could use some love, even though i agree that Scatter should be reworked.
Logged in to pretty much say this, thankfully some1 else wrote it...

Some of the prior posts have got to be trolls.

Yes, I have 500 hours on Hanzo... So you can call me a Hanzo main if you'd like, however; I am currently a Widowmaker main.
I only play Hanzo one game per day since reaching 500 hours because I am now bringing Widowmaker to 500 hours.
You're a prestige 2 mercy main who isnt even ranked saying that hanzo's ult is one of the strongest in game, i dont think im going to post an actual reply because this is just a troll post
What... hanzo is almost the weakest and least useful hero's on the roster. Their is a reason that instalock hanzo is a meem

Widow is one of the strongest dps in the game. pros build whole teams around her.

Also wall hacks is one of the best ults in the game for situational awareness

Honestly he probably needs a buff to become part of the meta

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