This game needs role select/prefer system

General Discussion
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27/03/2018 15:46Posted by XpanderR
Too many casuals switch to heroes they can not even play.
This results in a bad Matchmaking experience.
The system doesnt know how to balance this.

example: a genji main plays ana now. Genji is 2800 sr but when he plays ana his sr is below 2000 in reality

people argue with counter picking is important etc. yes it is and I didnt say that you can not switch heroes.

you contribute to your team when you play the hero you can actually play.
Skill dominates counter picking.
This game is no scissors stone paper

*Before you dislike and leave, I want to convince you to stay and read the comment from FuriousNorth on site 3*
literally the most incorrect post I have ever read.

Well done.

Quite an achievement, considering the community.
01/04/2018 19:06Posted by Sleipnir
01/04/2018 16:33Posted by DamtheMan
...

I guess you really told off all those OTPs. Oh, wait, they still ain't swapping.


Problem made by the community, not the game, huh?


But Blizzard isn't doing anything to help, instead stating over and over and over and over and over that one-tricking is not bannable. F that! Start handing out proper bans for those that refuse to work with the core aspect of the game (switching heroes). If five people constantly have to try to compromise and build around one special flower, that's one person enjoying the game, five people not enjoying it, but no action is taken.
27/03/2018 21:34Posted by VurrChachino

And that's an incredibly dumb and stupid game design choice if you ask me.
Who in their right mind would design a game with active-counter picking? Counter picking is already a bad idea but to have it be a constant factor throughout a match? Geesh...
Choosing what to play based off of what your opponents are playing is bad.

I can't be the only one that realise that all this really accomplishes is that people don't get to play what hero they want to play and are instead 'forced' to play a hero that they may not feel like or enjoy playing.

This is of course assuming people play to win which they should since it is a competitive game.
Two teams go against each other and the game ends when one of them wins.
This is where people are forced to make a choice.

    A: Switch to a hero that you may find boring to play but is more suited for the situation.

    B: Keep playing a hero that you have fun with and try to make it work.


In other words; The "main concept" of the game is flawed and is likely a huge reason to why there is so much toxicity in the game.


I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not..
30/03/2018 13:49Posted by XpanderR


A good Hanzo,Widow isnt screwed only because enemies play dive heroes.

This game is no scissors stone paper

Probably you switch heroes before you even realise that you played wrong.

Thats the problem with many people who believe more in "potential counters" than in skill.


:D :D :D
While it would be nice to select roles, it would be too much of a change to be added to normal competitive (as it would be a complete overhaul of the mode). If they were to add it, it'd have to be a separate competitive mode with a separate rank, in the same way that comp CTF and comp Lucioball is.

And "everyone wanting to play DPS" isn't even the issue, I've had many matches where we've gotten screwed not because we had too many DPS mains, but because we had 5 tank or support mains that couldn't play any other role for !@#$.

Now, there's another issue with this, there's a lot of people who main a particular character (D.va mains being the best example here) but have no idea whatsoever how to play any other characters in the same role. If this player has selected D.va and has to switch but the team still needs a tank, then you may end up with an even worse team than you would have in a normal comp match because there would be no incentive for anyone who hadn't picked the tank role to pick a tank; "you chose the tank role, not my problem".
The whole compare with other hero X do determine what is your SR is already a big mistake. Comparing stats from 2 different games will never work. The opponents will be different the setups will be different or even the maps. If you play a widow and be hard countered in game 1 and the enemy has a shield tank and widow 2 in game 2 can stand still and shoot people without problems. How can you compare stats of these 2??

Players not able to switch heroes, since you will maybe have to less time to get a rating. Or they have not experience into so they afraid to play it, since they will get compared to mains that get much better stats on them.

SR win or loss should be determined by if you win or not. And how well you played compared to the other players in your team.
If you have only halve of the stats the other player in that role has then you should drop hard(like -200 SR).
This will also fix the problem of trolls, throwers or one picks. And playing a role that isn't played by anyone else in your team, will be a save way to play.

For example dps 1 has an average of 500 damage done a minute and a kill/dead ratio of 3/1 and 20 eliminations, 10 objective eliminations. DPS 2 has an average of 100 damage done a minute and a kill/dead ratio of 5/1 and 30 eliminations, 8 objective eliminations. DPS 3 has an average of 50 damage done a minute and a kill/dead ratio of 1/4 and 8 eliminations, 2 objective eliminations. Tank 1 has ... only 1 tank so nothing to compare with, so skipped. Healer 1 has healed 199 a minute and a kill/dead ratio of 1/2 Healer 2 has healed 250 a minute and a kill/dead ratio of 1/3...
This team lost: DPS 2 has a better kill/dead ratio and kills then dps 1(flanker), but dps did more damage. DPS 3 stats were all far below the other 2 dps stats and was obviously playing far below the rating he should have been in. Maybe thrower the game or didn't switch a hero that was hard countered.
DPS 1 and 2 will both loose 25 SR for loosing, DPS 3 will loose 225 SR because of loosing and playing far below the rating of the other DPSers.
Tank 1 is save and always will only loose 25 SR even if he was playing bad.
Both healers stats were about the same so both healer will loose 25 SR for loosing.

With the above system players will drop to their actual rating much faster. Even one tricks that can carry a game but when hard counted will do far below what they should do, will drop.
A main healers locking a 2nd dps slots and play very bad compared to the other dps will drop hard.
03/04/2018 08:11Posted by Bloodartist
27/03/2018 21:34Posted by VurrChachino

And that's an incredibly dumb and stupid game design choice if you ask me.
Who in their right mind would design a game with active-counter picking? Counter picking is already a bad idea but to have it be a constant factor throughout a match? Geesh...
Choosing what to play based off of what your opponents are playing is bad.

I can't be the only one that realise that all this really accomplishes is that people don't get to play what hero they want to play and are instead 'forced' to play a hero that they may not feel like or enjoy playing.

This is of course assuming people play to win which they should since it is a competitive game.
Two teams go against each other and the game ends when one of them wins.
This is where people are forced to make a choice.

    A: Switch to a hero that you may find boring to play but is more suited for the situation.

    B: Keep playing a hero that you have fun with and try to make it work.


In other words; The "main concept" of the game is flawed and is likely a huge reason to why there is so much toxicity in the game.


I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not..


Care to elaborate?
What part confuses you?
How do you do that when you have 1 healer, 2 tanks and 24 different flavors of DPSs?
Add people as friends you play with, add a note next to their name of their main role.

Invite to play with you when you are online together.

Simple.

But role select is daft. If I pick DPS, but our main tank is garbage, I will swap to a 3rd tank.

Or our support is Lucio and Zen but the enemy have Mercy and Moira, I will swap to a self healer or ask a support to swap. What if our support can't play anything other than Lucio and 76.

Iet him go 76 and I swap to Moira or Mercy.

Role select will not help. You will just get to lose Vs teams willing to swap roles while you are having a cute and meta 2-2-2 team comp.

Learn to play a pool of heroes that work around counters.

Like if you main 76, master Zarya, so if the enemy go to Dva you can melt her as Zarya.

If you main Zen, but the enemy have Sombra, also learn Moira, who can heal and damage and consistently disrupt her hack.

If you main Winston but they have a reaper, learn McCree, Junkrat or Hanzo to counter him.

But don't blame the game, the issue is onetricks. Those people drag the whole team down.
took a week off from this game to try reset myself. decided to play it today, played a few ffa games and was having fun. queued up for rank and in my first game we had 4 instalock dps with no chage, started arguing and then one left the game. so that was and is my only overwatch comp game today anyway
03/04/2018 13:20Posted by Scorpii
took a week off from this game to try reset myself. decided to play it today, played a few ffa games and was having fun. queued up for rank and in my first game we had 4 instalock dps with no chage, started arguing and then one left the game. so that was and is my only overwatch comp game today anyway


Pretty much similar to my experience, minus the FFA (and the part about arguing, nobody apparently has mics on PS4), I don't play that. But I did placements, then went back after two weeks to do some Ranked, got fed up after five matches, haven't touched Ranked since, with little to no real motivation to go back this season. Will dlacements S10, go in with (stupid) hope people actually enter Competitive to play competitive, 99% sure end up disillusioned by 4-5 DPS "teams" during placements already.
02/04/2018 22:35Posted by NIDCLXVI
27/03/2018 15:46Posted by XpanderR
Too many casuals switch to heroes they can not even play.
This results in a bad Matchmaking experience.
The system doesnt know how to balance this.

example: a genji main plays ana now. Genji is 2800 sr but when he plays ana his sr is below 2000 in reality

people argue with counter picking is important etc. yes it is and I didnt say that you can not switch heroes.

you contribute to your team when you play the hero you can actually play.
Skill dominates counter picking.
This game is no scissors stone paper

*Before you dislike and leave, I want to convince you to stay and read the comment from FuriousNorth on site 3*
literally the most incorrect post I have ever read.

Well done.

Quite an achievement, considering the community.


Would be quite an archievement when something positive would come out of ur toxic mouth
The root cause of the enormous playerbase toxicity is Blizzard's tyrannical matchmaking algorithm that causes massive win / loss streaks in order to reach its desired goal of 50 / 50 win loss. This removes agency from the player, and ultimately leads to feelings of frustration, then salt, then toxicity and finally trolling. The increase in trolls is primarily about a loss of control being forced on players, and they in turn, take it out on the system. They think, why bother trying if my personal performance makes no difference, and instead I am just playing a game of chance?

This is not the fault of the players. How can it be? They are merely humans and prone to all manner of emotional issues. It is - or at least should be - the game designer's goal to create positive emotions and minimize negative emotions. By this measure, Blizzard is failing.

The other major cause of such massive toxicity is the fact that a win or a loss in Overwatch is 99% down to team compositions, and yet, and this is the crux of the issue, the game does not enforce basic team structure upon players. Instead, it leaves it up to the players - who are already on a downward spiral of rumination due to the loss of agency - to build a basic team composition that fundamentally increases your chance of winning. Specifically, for most levels, that is a 222 comp.

And herein lies the problem. Firstly, you have a loss of agency slowly driving rumination in the player base, each player triggered by another player's loss of enthusiasm/desire to actually build a 222 comp. And secondly, you have a game that should be about personal performance, but is in fact, primarily a roll of the dice over which team gets a 222 composition and which team doesn't. 99% of the quality of the matches that I play are determined by if both teams have a version of 222, or if they don't. If one team does have 222 and the other team doesn't, it's usually always a stomp and quite frankly, dull as dishwater.

What isn't clear is why, from the hundreds of millions of data points that Blizzard can see, plus the OWL clearly showing that a match with two teams running 222 (or a version thereof) is by far and away the most rewarding and entertaining match for all players, why they haven't yet moved to create a role select system.

It would up the quality of the matches hugely by forcing role select before a match. Sure you would lose some freedom, but I bet that 90% of the playerbase would be willing to forfeit total freedom over which character to play in return for a big improvement in match quality. Why not just allow player swapping within a role? So if you're healer, you can swap to any other healer but not to any other role? That would at least not break the team comp for five other people, which is generally what happens.
/push
Role select would still allow people to switch during match within the selected role. The game would still maintain the midmatch switching, so I do not really see the big downside to it, other than narrowing the meta changes to certain x supp x tank sort of thing, possibly.

Even that I do not see as such a bad thing, it would be highly preferable to what it is now, when you reach certain rating it appears there's just supp and dps mains, no tanks whatsoever. Then you have people playing roles they absolutely loathe leading to further frustration.
I wholeheartedly believe that a role system would yield much better results compared to the current system. People are tilting even before the match begins even without troll picks.
I don't think it would work how people believe it would work.

Anyone can queue for anything but it doesn't mean they will be good at it, then you have someone else leave their role to pick up the slack and if you can just switch in game then whats stopping people queuing for supports or tanks to get in to matches quicker to then pick dps?

Even though I do not see it working I'd love for Blizzard to allow the players to have some control in this game, options are nice.
07/05/2018 17:45Posted by Jaqenoffski
I don't think it would work how people believe it would work.

Anyone can queue for anything but it doesn't mean they will be good at it, then you have someone else leave their role to pick up the slack and if you can just switch in game then whats stopping people queuing for supports or tanks to get in to matches quicker to then pick dps?

Even though I do not see it working I'd love for Blizzard to allow the players to have some control in this game, options are nice.

Skill of the players aside, a role selection system would show the 'intent' of the players, so the system can match a nice balance of 'intent' into a team and let them thrash it out from there. If you try to factor in the human element into a fix, you will never finish it.

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