Whats the point in heros that require skill anymore?

General Discussion
01/05/2018 09:36Posted by Renegade
01/05/2018 00:37Posted by VurrChachino
Having heroes that are easy to play but are equally and sometimes stronger than the heroes that require a lot of skill to play is bad in a game like Overwatch.

no that is just overwatch, have been and seemingly will be.
what you might be thinking of are straight up pure FPS games.

but in this case this game is much more like a moba than an fps at this point.


No I'm thinking of a competitive game which Overwatch is. I see people using that arguement of yours a lot and it makes very little sense to me. It's like a bandwagon-defense-reply or something.

I will give you another example of why having such massive differences in skill requirements for heroes is a bad thing.

Say I enjoy playing Hero A which is an easy and powerful hero and I do so for maybe an entire season where I have quite a bit of good games and I get a pretty good rank (SR).
The next season arrives and I'm bored with Hero A because well, I played it so much and I want to switch to Hero B.

Now Hero B is just as strong as my previous hero but there's a lot less room for mistakes, I'm very easily punished and is in general much harder to play.
I start losing a lot because the rank that I got to with Hero A is much higher than the rank I would've gotten to as Hero B.

What do I do then? Do I keep playing Hero A even though I'm bored with it but it's the only hero that I can play at this rank or do I simply try and fail (dragging my team down with me) until I've dropped low enough to an SR that suits my current skill with Hero B?
I'm essentially throwing games at that point simply because I want to play another hero that I find more interesting at the time.

Do you see the point I'm making?
    My SR with Hero A = Master
    My SR with Hero B = Platinum


What's also worth noting is that in the scenario where I try and fail until I've lost enough SR to match my current skill with Hero B, as I'm losing all of these games my teams will hate me. There'll be toxicity and what seems like an incredibly poor matchmaking system (which people are constantly complaining about).

Big differences in skill requirements for heroes messes with the matchmaking in the game because your rank is not determined by your skill but also by what heroes you choose to play.
I know that this is inevitable in a game where you can play as different characters that have different skills and tools but it's important to keep these characters as balanced as you can in every way.
This is why I want Blizzard to REDUCE the difference in skillcap and skill requirement for all heroes.
I know the struggle playing against champions like junkrat, moira, brig and other no-skilled champions that you literally do nothing and break the left click. They really need to nerf or remove champions like this and make champions where you need to think with your brain a little bit. Every game I play with junkrat and moira and that is annoying.
01/05/2018 00:37Posted by VurrChachino
Say you're a good player but you're playing a hero that's tough to play.
You come up against a bad player that's playing a hero that's easy to play and you lose.
How is that good game design?
Well, sport & games like go, shogi, chess, croquet, golf, bowling, polo, basketball, etc ... all have rules that allow a good player & a bad player to face up, and still have the bad player a good chance to win (commonly refered to as "Handicapping" ).

So, apparently, the real world has made a judgement on your question: Giving the bad player a fighting chance = good design.
01/05/2018 16:11Posted by VurrChachino
Do you see the point I'm making?
My SR with Hero A = Master
My SR with Hero B = Platinum

just because you can't play hero A vs hero B doesn't mean you will ever be able to play hero A. you just have to be more conscious about picking that hero.
if every hero can be viable no matter what that would indeed be great, but it's not great if only a small selection of heroes are like that, and in such a diverse hero pool overwatch is you can never have every hero be viable all the time, therefore those heroes that are viable all the time are essentially heroes that are overpowered in this sense, but people argue that skill should trump hero counter but only for a subsection of heroes which is just playing favorites at this point.

but if a hero becomes a must pick to win no matter the skill ceiling that hero needs to get looked at or the rest of the roster.

01/05/2018 16:11Posted by VurrChachino
This is why I want Blizzard to REDUCE the difference in skillcap and skill requirement for all heroes.

it's an admirable thought, but the majority of players are casuals and making changes to the skill ceiling or skill floor to all characters you are excluding your current playerbase that have never played fps games or have never been good at those.

if you truly want a more balanced and fair and hard game, you have to look at more symmetrical games where they can't simply win because they have a better weapon than you or a better character than yours etc.

overwatch is not that game and probably never will be.
01/05/2018 17:38Posted by Qube
01/05/2018 00:37Posted by VurrChachino
Say you're a good player but you're playing a hero that's tough to play.
You come up against a bad player that's playing a hero that's easy to play and you lose.
How is that good game design?
Well, sport & games like go, shogi, chess, croquet, golf, bowling, polo, basketball, etc ... all have rules that allow a good player & a bad player to face up, and still have the bad player a good chance to win (commonly refered to as "Handicapping" ).

So, apparently, the real world has made a judgement on your question: Giving the bad player a fighting chance = good design.


I wouldn't compare playing some heroes over others in Overwatch which is a permanent thing to having the option to give a player a handicap in some games and sports.
Not to mention that just because you can find a few instances of people doing something a certain way doesn't mean that it's the best thing to do and that it shouldn't be challenged or changed.

A competitive game that's supposed to seperate players into different tiers and ranks based on their skill does not accomplish to do so properly when your rank can be so vastly different based on what heroes you choose to play.

01/05/2018 16:11Posted by VurrChachino
Do you see the point I'm making?
My SR with Hero A = Master
My SR with Hero B = Platinum

just because you can't play hero A vs hero B doesn't mean you will ever be able to play hero A. you just have to be more conscious about picking that hero.
if every hero can be viable no matter what that would indeed be great, but it's not great if only a small selection of heroes are like that, and in such a diverse hero pool overwatch is you can never have every hero be viable all the time,


I was not talking about heroes being viable or not. Maybe you were in which case we're misunderstanding each other.
none
i find it stupid how some people are actually putting alot of effort and time learning and mastering a hero before actually being good with it, but it seems blizzard doesnt want us to learn those heroes Aka Genji/Tracer/doomfist/sombra, since they love to add braindead heroes into the game that can counter these high practice heroes with ease. in the beginning of OW (and the release of ana) people actually had a mixture of support hero comp's depending on the kind of comp they're playing, now all i see 90% of the times is baguette and moira, capable of doing more DPS/killing blows than your ordinairy DPS heroes, but Hey!, who doesnt love flying and bouncing orbs all the way into your spawn to just lose 150 HP when u take 5 steps out of your spawn to just hurry yourself to get a Healthpack, or to get stunned for an eternity to just get 3 shot by a Support, yes you heard it right a "SUPPORT" hero. -owen wilson voice- WOW
30/04/2018 23:36Posted by Ramaxis
Skill is subjective. Doing amazing or doing 'good enough' are two entirely diffrent things. For example I believe that Genji and Tracer are easy to play and people are 100% allowed to disagree with me on it. But don't pretend that just because a character has 'easy' mechanics that it requires no skill to learn and master. Moira and Brigitte for example both have their position in the team that hey have to learn and stick to. This is why those heroes were rubbish the first couple of weeks because people who don't know the first thing about supporting are hogging them and playing them like glorified DPS characters. The same could be said for Ana when she was released. People played her like a budget Widowmaker untill they discovered that they were required to do other things beside getting that gold eliminations medal and then they all quit playing her giving the actual support players a chance.

TLDR: There are no ''no skill'' characters in the game. Just characters requiring diffrent skills.
THIS MERCY MAIN DID NOT JUST SAY GENJI AND TRACER ARE EASY
01/05/2018 22:25Posted by VurrChachino
I was not talking about heroes being viable or not. Maybe you were in which case we're misunderstanding each other.

you were talking about less mechanically skilled hero being easier to rank with compared to a high mechanically skill hero, but that i pointed out that is not a good reason to differentiate heroes, and they both have a place in the game at equal levels no matter the mechanical skill.

i'm basing my argument that mechanical skill doesn't trump counters and that mechanical skill shouldn't negate counters that have less mechanical skill to execute.
the mechanical skill is purely a requisitive surely for some heroes and sometimes a draw for some players that like that, but that is not how it is for the majority of the heroes and the players that play them.

but yes, some heroes will be inherently harder to use because how they are inherently harder mechanically to perform with, but that is how the game works, there wouldn't be difficulty stars on the heroes if there wasn't some sort differentiating things about them. and you wouldn't have this wide selection of weird and odd type of heroes in the same game if that wasn't the case.
01/05/2018 22:52Posted by Renegade
01/05/2018 22:25Posted by VurrChachino
I was not talking about heroes being viable or not. Maybe you were in which case we're misunderstanding each other.

you were talking about less mechanically skilled hero being easier to rank with compared to a high mechanically skill hero, but that i pointed out that is not a good reason to differentiate heroes, and they both have a place in the game at equal levels no matter the mechanical skill.

i'm basing my argument that mechanical skill doesn't trump counters and that mechanical skill shouldn't negate counters that have less mechanical skill to execute.
the mechanical skill is purely a requisitive surely for some heroes and sometimes a draw for some players that like that, but that is not how it is for the majority of the heroes and the players that play them.

but yes, some heroes will be inherently harder to use because how they are inherently harder mechanically to perform with, but that is how the game works, there wouldn't be difficulty stars on the heroes if there wasn't some sort differentiating things about them. and you wouldn't have this wide selection of weird and odd type of heroes in the same game if that wasn't the case.


Well the topic is about heroes that require skill to play and what the point is to play them when you can just pick up a hero that doesn't with no drawbacks, cons or the like.
But if you want to get into that (counter picking) then I'd ask you; why should somebody get an almost free kill simply because they're playing a hero that counters the hero that they're fighting?
Just because you have the tools to counter somebody shouldn't mean that you automatically do so. You should also need to know how to use them.

That being said, I'm against designing heroes with obvious weaknesess for the sole purpose of having them countered by others.
It just further enforces the arguement that you can't play what you want if you want to win.
You have to play what you need even if it's boring.
let me add my two cents

I understand the point of view of the OP. Sorry but this is going to be a long post, they are just opinions so of course they are subjetive and you can agree or disagree, in any case try to do it with respect please.
Been said that, when i say in some points someone said this... trust me, is in the forums i do not want to dig for it, but it is there. So trust me and excuse me for been a lazy !@# and do not search

WIDOWMAKER.

A widowmaker is situational, depends on the map, needs a LOT of skill to master and land headshots in a game where everyone, jumps, flies, dashes, teleports increase speed has a different hitbox etc....
Even the number one widowmaker suffers unless theres a team revolving around her.
If we check her counters, winston, diva and any other...just need a bit of practice on it to be able to counter her or...the use of shields all around. place an Orisa shield over and over and then just a hero that harrashes the widow and it is done for her for the match.

SKILLS VS AIM

What I mean is this....I main mercy, the skills needed to play her is to keep her alive which can be hard sometimes to continue move dodge position, find cover and always with a flanker behind and tanks at the front or a winston chasing you all around. But even if i play mercy....i love to play widowmaker, but never in competitive.
SO all characters need skill? yes sure. But the difference between the ones hard to master and the ones easy to use is tooooo big.

torbjon, symmetra, Bastion and any auto aim damage dealer....against a pro team does little, cause due to their aim mobility is highly needed. A torbjon againsta coordinated team has nothing to say, shields etc and protect the team while the turret goes away....
But what happens when you are a common regular player?. all the shots you miss as mcree, soldier, widow or any hitscan....another auto aim damage dealer can do. What if you do not have a coordinated team like 90% of the time?...yeah same. POTG torbjon, bastion etc

That is simply BAD DESIGN.

if you buff the heroes with autoaim so some can be played in high ranks like torb etc and people, with no experience, will dominate the low ranks with no effort.
Junkrat damage, a second mine to add mobility was another fail, Mercy rework was another fail, ana will always be a bad healer if she depends on aim while others can keep healing just been close to them.

WHY to play them? cause they are challenging.

So....why learning a hard to master character?...only cause you like the gameplay, but knowing that unless you are a MASTER...or really really GOOD, you have a good connection, time to practice with it over and over and patience....it wont work in competitive. It is challenging, can be fun but...go to quickplay and play them. Maybe thats why we see so many off meta heros in quickplay, but never so many in competitive.

Why pros like the hard to master characters? ....as one said....

Somebody said why pro players choose hard to master characters?. One of them posted in this forum this..."of course I make of this a living, so I choose characters that show whats the difference between me and the regular player". So after all....they like characters that look hard to play cause....if they are good in a character we know is not so hard to play we can say..."hey I can DO that".

Some of them posted in the forums this as answer of why some pros never would play junkrat. Basically cause they do not feel or "look" to the spectator like...skilled but can be seen as "lucky". So thats the answer we got from one. Of course that doesnt mean you wont see other characters, they like to win as well....but they HAVE TO SHOW OFF skills to be hired, and justify them as different from the average-skilled player. Competence is hard.

BALANCE BALANCE BALANCE.

that are the falire from the start of ow. It became a competitive game from a casual one. A league from a not rounded game for e-sports. Jk said in a post in this forum like 6 months ago...that they balance hearing all the people and community but.....they put special interest in the pro scene (and some streamers) that they have a direct contact with.

So they balance from top to bottom "oh thats great right? cause they know how to play the game..." WRONG. They play a DIFFERENT game from the rest of us.

They play in a coordinated team, with strategies, in levels were people aim like gods and have an amazing dexterity. Now with a "normal" computer been a so so player and with randoms try to do the same.

Not the first time someone plays a symmetra and destroys in low ranks...and people answer to this.."git gud"

Yes they are right, you can "git gud" to land headshots on her if you see her first she doesnt throw a shield, she is not at full energy and there are no turrets around, she has not ambushed you and nobody hits you around and pushes you cause she doesnt play alone....practice your aim over and over to get better and better or...

Play winston.

Then why all this criticism?.

Cause we all love the game, we love the characters just that we are passionate as the devs are, but have a different view of how to get things done.

Cause if they balance following some advices from pros, the rest of us, casual players have no place or voice and we are the 99% of the playerbase. Cause it is interesting how after months I hardly play, but for events and a lot of people and friends stopped playing long ago.
Cause balance in a competitive scenario makes people salty, they point at you like saying "mercy player" for example....without seeing that maybe, I have more widowmaker hours than them or diva or etc...

Cause changes come too slow to a game that needs to be set up for e-sports and they are doing so on the go, and just for the e-sports reason.

Example....BRIGITTE.

Since dive meta was here, the community was tired of been ran over or simply run over the enemy team. Not be able to play characters like ana or other characters off meta...and having to use another dive to counter a dive meta.

We all said that we said that the game was frenetic and in a bad state, they added doomfist to the roster...ehem.
JK said that meta evolves organically and so they are not going to mess around with it...till.....

wait, lets stop here. Overwatch has camera issues, all happens too fast, people that doesnt know about the game really dont know whats happening, theres no strategy for the noob eye...and even the ones that play find that is hard to follow. Camera changes were made fast to solve this as well as other things but still.... in an article you can find that in owl 80% of the time there was a DIVE META.

Frenetic fast paced, hard to view and follow. so...Briggite and Moira. Supports that counter flankers, that are counters of tracer genji or anyone that comes at the back are deployed. They do not want to mess with the current meta or the dive meta but we know, for real, that any new hero or change in buffs/nerfs will do. Junkrat is off meta, then a second mine is added cause of "mobility?". Cause Junkrat needs some love.

Ben said this....Im not against one meta or another, just saying that the reasons of balance are based on what is needed at the top, at the league, at the pro scene. Which is great, is valid but leaves 99% of the playerbase out.
like someone said before wisely....to win you know what you need to play, and what not to. If you like this or that character, be aware, if is not meta use it in quickplay or arcade or forget about it. 2/3 of the roster are more moba based than fps based, need no aim, only 10 of them are effective...check the pro play usage of characters.

In resume...
I appreciate the work, the hard work put in OW, it has been a great experience for me and I enjoyed it. I met a lot of good people of all kinds here and really they are awesome. I get that people criticize cause theya re passionate with a game they love even if they have (like me) personal opinions with a lot of flaws.

I understand that the game itself is really a NIGHTMARE to balance, how to balance auto aimed based characters with aim based ones that need skill....how to balance it for bronze and also for high ranks and the pro scene...what to touch what works...and doesnt.

Also i understand this is not a FPS not a MOBA but a mix of both. That aim is not the only skill needed at all. That balancing on character for all levels is impossible.
And I also understand...that sadly, if I want to play widow i have to listen to music, get out off chat or mute people, play it for fun in quickplay and relax but....never never never try to "git gud" to make her effective in all situations, maps and compositions cause is not going to happen.

thank you all!
Aiming is just one part of your skill set. Positioning and tactics are another. Winston or rein are much more tactical in a team fight than widow (point and click). Same with a good Mercy.
"i 've mastered an hero and i want to play it" ->genji
"i've mastered and hero and i would play it"->hanzo
there're 27 heroes , dive became boring, so yes you cant play anymore genji or tracer like top pick,
what you prefear ...tracer and genji or 25 character?
what is better?
maybe is time to change "hanzo switch" in "genji switch"
it's time for the dragon of the southwind to kill his brother again...it's time to shattering the meta

overwatch never was an aim only game...from the beta and i hope to never be

overwatch skill is strategy/positioning/combo and coordination.
01/05/2018 09:32Posted by Bloodartist
30/04/2018 20:41Posted by WEEZYPEANUT


If you think that then I must be some kind of Brig god because Iv tried her and shes almost un killable and at the same time I can land more elims than a dps.


Now I hate to do this but.... you're also bronze.


Comments like this are just pathetic, and in no way helpful or relevant to this topic.
You don't know this isn't my alt account, for all you know I'm a GM, but that's not the point, the point is even if I was my OP would still stand.

I'm not necessarily talking about individual player skill, its about the 'no skill heroes' I mentioned having a unbalanced Kit compared to others.
The ease of use coupled with almost no negatives means whether a Bronze or a Gm plays them the scenario is still the same.

Side note: I took note a few days ago of 10 games in a row and about 9/10 had 2/3 of the Moira, Junk, Brig heroes. 4/10 had all 3 in.

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