Regarding balance

StarCraft II General
Yet again the discussion wether or not Zerg is UP or not has risen and i feel the need to express my opinion, i hope this will be a relatively short post since i dont wanna start ranting about irrelevant things.
THE BALL IS ALWAYS IN THE COURT OF THE TOSS OR THE TERRAN.

Unless we 6pool or do some retarded rush that if scouted a silver player can defend it, we are always, in every game, trying to figure out what the toss or the terran is playing with and then we try to beat them at their own game.
Zerg units early on are not fitted for pushes against toss or terran, they can wall in or forcefield and their ranged units pick us off even if we caught them teching with a tiny army.
Cannon rushes, bunker rushes, blink stalker push, 4gate, banshee rush, the 6gate, phoenixes, blueflame hellions.
There is a multitude of different builds and strats available to toss and terran designed to knock us out with a a quick push, what do have that is reliable? Nothing, we have to wait cause we dont have the tools to attack or take the initiative.
So where is Zergs power? Lategame? Not until we have brood lords can we actually take the initiative in a battle, until then we poke here, appear there and then retreat.

Its hard to express what i feel but... i guess my point is, when its impossible to force a game in a direction, when our options are so limited simply because of game mechanics and all we can do is wait, scout and hope that we got it right it kinda sucks.


i dont know, maybe someone is better at explaining, but when i played random a while back i felt a freedom playing terran and toss that i NEVER have as zerg.
Remember the workers, rememeber the pylons, do what you wish. I can never say that as zerg, always afraid, always alert.
Terran OP
02/02/2011 6:01 PMPosted by Avyn
Terran OP


in the grand scheme of things it would seem, all though when i think about it my post feels more toss related than terran related

they either do one of their 10 different kinds of pushes or stay back and build a deathball, and i must play in a way that prepares for all off it but i can never take initiative and stop it
If you don't like the way zerg is played, choose another race? Terran has the opposite problem, cause you are forced to keep up pressure or lose. While that is thrilling and a reason I like Terran, I like playing zerg also exactly because it's the opposite.
02/02/2011 6:43 PMPosted by zuck
Terran has the opposite problem, cause you are forced to keep up pressure or lose


You're joking, right?
02/02/2011 6:46 PMPosted by iNSorroW
Terran has the opposite problem, cause you are forced to keep up pressure or lose


You're joking, right?


This is how I feel terran is being played like aswell. So no joke there.
02/02/2011 6:46 PMPosted by iNSorroW
You're joking, right?


No?

Don't put pressure on zerg -> he has 3 bases fully saturated in no time and you're screwed

Take protoss to the late game and.. you're screwed.

Not always obviously but the odds are against terran if you leave your opponent do his thing.
02/02/2011 6:46 PMPosted by iNSorroW
Terran has the opposite problem, cause you are forced to keep up pressure or lose


You're joking, right?


I also feel this is very true. If a terran lets me play my game, I just expand like crazy and hit him with loads of 3/3 banes and lings backed up with brood lords, winning the game easily.

If he keep a hard pressure on me with marines, tanks and drops he can win the game
02/02/2011 6:43 PMPosted by zuck
Terran has the opposite problem, cause you are forced to keep up pressure or lose.


Depends on how you want to play the lategame, the higher up the tech tree the more slowly you generally have to maneuver as terran, but you still have plenty of options for a very strong lategame army that will act cost efficiently where as the only option you end up with as zerg is brood lords which essentially are just another unit that you have to use to hit a place while you attack somewhere else, because no matter how high up the tech tree you go you can never engage something in a direct fashion.

Don't put pressure on zerg -> he has 3 bases fully saturated in no time and you're screwed


The same applies back to you you know, ESPECIALLY with harass but in other cases as well. If nothing is really happening, just expand and macro yourself. A terran macroing puts more pressure on a zerg than vice versa.
02/02/2011 6:01 PMPosted by Avyn
Terran OP
02/02/2011 5:54 PMPosted by qvist

Cannon rushes, bunker rushes, blink stalker push, 4gate, banshee rush, the 6gate, phoenixes, blueflame hellions.
There is a multitude of different builds and strats available to toss and terran designed to knock us out with a a quick push, what do have that is reliable? Nothing, we have to wait cause we dont have the tools to attack or take the initiative.


This is the thing that irks me the most.
Each of the other races has a ground (Reaper/Dark Templar), Mech (Hellion/Blink Stalkers) and air harassment option (Banshee/Pheonix).
Zerg has the wonderful Mutalisks, the Roaches that require a Lair and three damned upgrades to be usable and the Infestors.

It feels very limited since both Infestors and Roaches are countered with detection and the Mutalisks take forever to tech to (compare the Muta tech time to Pheonix or Banshee).

Furthermore both T and P have the "mass => kill" units and combinations of units that compliment each other. Infentry/Medivac/Thor or MMM+Tanks. Protoss Stalker/Collosi armies or Pheonix/VRay combinations...
We have Roach Hydra and that dies to both Tanks and Collosi...
Broodlords are the best unit in the game in my opinion. It's a bit unfair to mention thors and collosis without mentioning broodlords.
I'd swap Broodlords for Thor or Collosii any day of the week.
Why ? because Broodlords are by far the hardest unit to tech to in the game.

The vast majority of games don't last long enough for Brood Lords. Thor and Collosi actually get used. Theres no contest here. When you factor this in the unit is very poor I'd rather have a weaker earlier unit I can actually use. Zerg simply don't have enough variety.
02/02/2011 11:51 PMPosted by qvist
Depends on how you want to play the lategame, the higher up the tech tree the more slowly you generally have to maneuver as terran, but you still have plenty of options for a very strong lategame army that will act cost efficiently where as the only option you end up with as zerg is brood lords which essentially are just another unit that you have to use to hit a place while you attack somewhere else, because no matter how high up the tech tree you go you can never engage something in a direct fashion.


Well, I wasn't planning to turn this in a "zerg is so sad" thread. I just wanted to point out that what you are unhappy about is just the way zerg is generally played, and that you might be more happy using another race.
One of the most compelling arguments I have heard about the state of the game from a "balance" point of view is that it seems that the aggressor has a near overwhelming advantage. For example most cheezes are easy to do, but seriously hard to stop in many cases (they require a specific knowledge of the cheese and its specific counter). I play terran and have found if I get my MMM + leapfrogging tanks moving it requires very little to keep it steamrolling. BUT if I wait and somebody comes a-knockin ... then its all downhill.

I guess it boils down to the element of surprise, or as the 1st post mentioned, keeping the ball in your court.
02/02/2011 6:46 PMPosted by iNSorroW
You're joking, right?


While I have no doubt of your diamondly skill I do question how many games you have played as Terran. Because of the build nature of Terran we can't just warp or spawn a bunch of units on demand. We need to build up a preconceived army and keep the pressure on. If we let Zerg but particulary Protoss develop we are dead in the water.

You absolutely need to keep pressure up as Terran, be it through pushes, harassment or drops. What so many Protoss players don't seem to understand is that pound for pound the Protoss death balls are the strongest in the game. Not my words, Day9's and a couple of Master level players on the TL forum.
03/02/2011 12:03 AMPosted by haffy
Broodlords are the best unit in the game in my opinion. It's a bit unfair to mention thors and collosis without mentioning broodlords.


Both Thors and Colossus are a lot quicker to tech to, and you can tech to them while building your middlegame army, but with Brood Lords its something you get after you've gathered a sufficient amount of roach/hydra or something else cause you cant just tech to brood lord like that without dying.
02/02/2011 6:01 PMPosted by Avyn
Terran OP


Protoss OP

Zerg OP

so which one is it ?

next thing will be RANDOM soooo OP



You're joking, right?


I also feel this is very true. If a terran lets me play my game, I just expand like crazy and hit him with loads of 3/3 banes and lings backed up with brood lords, winning the game easily.

If he keep a hard pressure on me with marines, tanks and drops he can win the game


Errr bro, if a T doesn't put pressure on me, I start !%@!ting my pants 'cause of a possible massive deathball later on. I don't care alot about pressure, you learn to live with it as zerg and it makes you watch your minimap more, makes you more focused on staying alive, and those are good things.
En Taro Tassadar
04/02/2011 1:35 PMPosted by Kreator
Terran OP


Protoss OP

Zerg OP

so which one is it ?

next thing will be RANDOM soooo OP

that have allready been done
I think I have seen 1-3 threads that state it's unfair that random race get's hidden before you scout them

Taro ruul asz

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