Great campaign

Campaign and Story
So just finished the void campaign, and I loved it. Did not start the Epilogue yet.

So yea wanted to tell only now i realy enjoy starcraft2 and its well worth 26€ for the void, now I want to start completing all achivments from WoL and hots, and only annoying and unwanted achivment is the LostViking one, but rest I realy love starcraft2 now. IMO sc2 is the best RTS at this moment, fallowed by Company Of Heroes 2.

My wish is for blizzard to make warcraft 4, I never played wow and I grew with warcraft2 and starcraft1.
If you like stories in general, don't play the epilogue. It ruins everything.
09/03/2016 10:04Posted by Partago
If you like stories in general, don't play the epilogue. It ruins everything.


Rather let him judge that for himself, like I will when I finish the campaign. Every complaint that I've seen about the epilogue so far on the forums is not a proper critique but rather just a whinge about how the story didn't end the way some people wanted it to end. On the other hand, I've also seen some other people say that it does at least provide closure to the Starcraft 2 story arc, so ...
09/03/2016 11:05Posted by Jono
Rather let him judge that for himself, like I will when I finish the campaign. Every complaint that I've seen about the epilogue so far on the forums is not a proper critique but rather just a whinge about how the story didn't end the way some people wanted it to end. On the other hand, I've also seen some other people say that it does at least provide closure to the Starcraft 2 story arc, so ...


Fun fact: the Star Wars Prequels also weren't what people expected from it.
09/03/2016 15:30Posted by Partago
09/03/2016 11:05Posted by Jono
Rather let him judge that for himself, like I will when I finish the campaign. Every complaint that I've seen about the epilogue so far on the forums is not a proper critique but rather just a whinge about how the story didn't end the way some people wanted it to end. On the other hand, I've also seen some other people say that it does at least provide closure to the Starcraft 2 story arc, so ...


Fun fact: the Star Wars Prequels also weren't what people expected from it.


Is that supposed to mean something? At least there were objective reasons why the Star Wars prequels were considered bad movies, like poor character development etc. Not so with epilogue missions of Starcraft 2, the main complaint is simply that Kerrigan became the hero and ended up back with Raynor, when people actually wanted her dead. Which is not much of an argument if you ask me. Just because something isn't what you expected doesn't make it bad. Also, just because you can give an example of something else that was bad and wasn't what you expected, like the Star Wars prequels, doesn't make it bad either. That said, I still actually enjoyed the Star Wars prequels regardless of how other people saw them or how bad people thought they were as movies, so just because you don't like something, that doesn't mean that other people won't.

Since I haven't seen it yet, I'll get back to you on my own view when I see it.
09/03/2016 11:05Posted by Jono
Rather let him judge that for himself

Yeah and the fact that the gameplay is intense.
09/03/2016 18:10Posted by Jono
the main complaint

Well, here I've seen the overarching one to be the fact that the Epilogue was rushed.
09/03/2016 15:30Posted by Partago
Fun fact: the Star Wars Prequels also weren't what people expected from it.

I'd be inclined not to go with the Farce Awakens instead.
also i find void campaign achivments alot more easy than wol. I hate they had to put that lostviking crap.
08/03/2016 19:20Posted by SoD
My wish is for blizzard to make warcraft 4, I never played wow and I grew with warcraft2 and starcraft1.

You are not the only one :)
As for the Lost Viking, try watching a walkthrough of the game on Youtube to see how to get that achievement.
It takes A LOT of patience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux2cKox7Ui0

Good luck =)
@Jono

I'll try to be as brief as possible since I wouldn't want to spoil the Epilogue for OP, but if at the very end your game changes its genre from Sci-Fi to High Fantasy, you know something's very wrong.
10/03/2016 17:35Posted by Ornstein
@Jono

I'll try to be as brief as possible since I wouldn't want to spoil the Epilogue for OP, but if at the very end your game changes its genre from Sci-Fi to High Fantasy, you know something's very wrong.


Well, in the first place, Starcraft has always had fantasy elements in it anyway even though it's sci-fi just as Warcraft has sometimes had some elements of sci-fi in it despite it technically being high fantasy. For example, the idea of the light and dark energies of the Khala and the Void the space magic associated with it is already more an element of fantasy than sci-fi.

Despite that, I've recently finished the "Infinite Cycle" mission and I'll have to disagree with you that the concepts with the Xel'Naga here strictly belong in the realm of high fantasy and not sci-fi. The Xel'Naga appear to me to be what in sci-fi is sometimes referred to as a Kardashev type V civilisation, i.e. an extra-terrestrial civilisation that's gotten so advanced that they're able to control a collection of universes and Starcraft is hardly the first sci-fi to introduce such a concept. Other examples include for instance, the "Q" from Star Trek or the Arilou from another sci-fi game called Star Control 2 (Ur-Quan Masters). Normally, the dividing line between the sci-fi and high fantasy genres is that the fantastical elements in sci-fi are normally explained in terms of science speculation while in the other it's more magical and excepted without thought but since the Xel'Naga and Infinite Cycle stuff can still be explained in a science-fictioney way in terms of a multiverse and some advanced species that simply evolved beyond the confines of the universe that gave birth to them, I'd still regard that as within realm science fiction despite appearing to have elements of fantasy. So, no I don't regard it as a complete genre change, the idea of multiverses is actually a fairly common sci-fi trope and sometimes rooted in real scientific speculation (google the "multiverse hypothesis" and "M-theory").
@Jono

You kind of explained your first point regarding the Khala and the Void energies - they both have their lore explanations on why they work, hence they're sci-fi elements. The Xel'Naga on the other hand are barely explained at all and from what little we get to see is that they're basically gods. Having the story hinge on strategy and alliances only then to change it to depend on 2-3 godly beings seems like a significant step-down in my eyes, especially so when it comes to sci-fi. If it was high fantasy from the start I would've been fine with the "Xel'Naga Pantheon", but SC had already been established as a universe where the sacrifices of the many nameless ones and the few heroes save the world, not a single godlike being with nigh-infinite power.
11/03/2016 00:30Posted by Ornstein
@Jono

You kind of explained your first point regarding the Khala and the Void energies - they both have their lore explanations on why they work, hence they're sci-fi elements. The Xel'Naga on the other hand are barely explained at all and from what little we get to see is that they're basically gods. Having the story hinge on strategy and alliances only then to change it to depend on 2-3 godly beings seems like a significant step-down in my eyes, especially so when it comes to sci-fi. If it was high fantasy from the start I would've been fine with the "Xel'Naga Pantheon", but SC had already been established as a universe where the sacrifices of the many nameless ones and the few heroes save the world, not a single godlike being with nigh-infinite power.


Hang on, I've just tried to explain to you that the Xel'Naga do have a sci-fi explanation not just high fantasy one, and Starcraft is hardly the first sci-fi to have godlike beings in it. Take a look at this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory_landscape

and also this:

http://www.veronicasicoe.com/blog/2014/04/the-kardashev-scale-0-to-6/

You mean to tell me that a sci-fi story that incorporates ideas about a multiverse based on the ideas of string theory and of ideas of a Kardashev type 5 or 6 civilisation (which would seem god-like by definition despite just being an unimaginably advanced civilisation) is no longer sci-fi despite still being based on scientifically based concepts. The fact that such godlike beings can be explained as just a highly advanced civilisation in a science kind of way suggests to me that there is room for such godlike in science fiction.
10/03/2016 22:36Posted by Jono
Kardashev type V civilisation

Actually Nikolai Kardashev only had hypothesized three types of civilisations. Michio Kaku and others extended his theory.
11/03/2016 00:30Posted by Ornstein
The Xel'Naga on the other hand are barely explained at all and from what little we get to see is that they're basically gods

The first SC manual is a bit more specific but SCII changed a lot of things.
10/03/2016 22:36Posted by Jono
Kardashev type V civilisation

Actually Nikolai Kardashev only had hypothesized three types of civilisations. Michio Kaku and others extended his theory.


That's true. I was talking about the extended Kardashev scale that includes types 0, 4, 5 and 6 as well as intermediary stages that was included by Carl Sagan. I wasn't necessarily referring to Kardashev's original scale but extensions to it. Otherwise, the Xel'Naga would be too advanced to fit into any of the original 3 kinds of civilisations (Nikolai Kardashev himself didn't believe that there could be one more advanced than typel 3) but in the extended scale I'd say that they're at least type 5.
Campaign was somewhat linear in my opinion, without twists, no real choice between factions, no betrayals, no logic for that matter. After the Preserver was corrupted, you know, the Advisor that knew every single plan of action, we'll just let the enemy know everything we're doing through her, because reasons. Or the Prophecy that makes zero sense whatsoever. A 12 year old might not notice such things, but it pissed me off. The missions and the Spear itself were well designed, no complains about that. As for the Epilogue, it can sink in the Void for all I care. Oh wait...
@Jono

When the "fiction" part in science-fiction vastly outweighs the science part I'd feel pretty confident calling it a high fantasy. Many of these concepts are barely even speculated about, put aside confirmed. While I do acknowledge that speculation is a type of basis, it is not a solid one by a long shot. Additionally, I am having a hard time seeing Amon managing to betray and destroy a civilisation that strong on his own. It's been a while so I don't really remember, but wasn't it said he used the Zerg to annihilate the Xel'Naga? In that case, how could such lowly creatures even harm, put aside kill them? If we're going to be all scientific about this, the probability of existence of such an advanced civilisation is expectedly, extremely low. The chance of an entire civilisation wiped clean by a single individual and/or the Zerg is practically non-existent. Things like the Khala and the Void have their own explanations and basis that's been elaborated on by Blizzard, even if it can be far fetched at times. The description of the powers of the Xel'Naga barely scratched the surface, which is really the only difference between a sci-fi civilisation that advanced and a civilisation of gods in a high fantasy setting. Regardless, what my point truly is, is that the significant, drastic, and if you ask me, completely unnecessary increase in terms of the scale was quite the anti-climatic end considering what the franchise had been building up to for so long.
hmm blizzard should make a galactic map with planets and let clans or ppl battle for those planes
12/03/2016 05:19Posted by SoD
hmm blizzard should make a galactic map with planets and let clans or ppl battle for those planes

We just need space cartography that's all.

11/03/2016 21:55Posted by Ornstein
I am having a hard time seeing Amon managing to betray and destroy a civilisation that strong on his own.

Not alone. There were the many but only "he" and Narud remained from the baddies whilst Ouros was the remnant of the "goodies".
11/03/2016 21:55Posted by Ornstein
It's been a while so I don't really remember, but wasn't it said he used the Zerg to annihilate the Xel'Naga? In that case, how could such lowly creatures even harm, put aside kill them?

I reckon Amon used the zerg to destroy the xel'naga avatars and then when "his" own avatar was destroyed, the Void became the fireplace for the "souls" of the nagas in their own/nearby domain as the Void was supposed to be an extension of Amon's will. Don't ask more... I have no idea.
11/03/2016 21:55Posted by Ornstein
Regardless, what my point truly is, is that the significant, drastic, and if you ask me, completely unnecessary increase in terms of the scale was quite the anti-climatic end considering what the franchise had been building up to for so long.

Or the fact that the said civilisation was formed of three dimensional creatures visible to our eyes. There was no hint that the others but Kerrigan had any problems targeting the enemy in their own realm.
11/03/2016 21:55Posted by Ornstein
When the "fiction" part in science-fiction vastly outweighs the science part I'd feel pretty confident calling it a high fantasy. Many of these concepts are barely even speculated about, put aside confirmed.


There's different kinds of science fiction. In hard science fiction, which Starcraft never was, the science part is more scientifically accurate. In soft science fiction, the science is not necessarily accurate and partly made up. Additionally, you also get a mixing of genres like science fantasy which is science fiction with fantasy elements in it.

11/03/2016 21:55Posted by Ornstein
While I do acknowledge that speculation is a type of basis, it is not a solid one by a long shot. Additionally, I am having a hard time seeing Amon managing to betray and destroy a civilisation that strong on his own. It's been a while so I don't really remember, but wasn't it said he used the Zerg to annihilate the Xel'Naga?


He didn't do it on his own. He had followers. Basically, according to the lore, it was the creation of the Khala and the psionic disturbance that resulted from that that, that woke up a number of sleeping Xel'Naga at Ulnar. When they woke up, that's when they discovered Amon's plans and so the waged war on him and his followers to try and stop him. The result of that was that Amon and his followers were killed and the zerg were used were used to wipe out the "good" Xel'Naga. When Amon "died", he only died in the material universe and was sent back into the void. I don't know if this was mentioned in-game but it's on the Starcraft wiki, so maybe the developers mentioned it in a Q&A session.

11/03/2016 21:55Posted by Ornstein
In that case, how could such lowly creatures even harm, put aside kill them? If we're going to be all scientific about this, the probability of existence of such an advanced civilisation is expectedly, extremely low.


In reality it would be low but this is science fiction.

11/03/2016 21:55Posted by Ornstein
The chance of an entire civilisation wiped clean by a single individual and/or the Zerg is practically non-existent.


Again, it wasn't a single Xel'Naga, Amon had followers. So, it was basically a war between Xel'Naga. Also, when they have physical bodies in the material universe, they can be killed.

11/03/2016 21:55Posted by Ornstein
Things like the Khala and the Void have their own explanations and basis that's been elaborated on by Blizzard, even if it can be far fetched at times.


So, what's the difference between that and the concept of the Xel'Naga then?

11/03/2016 21:55Posted by Ornstein
The description of the powers of the Xel'Naga barely scratched the surface, which is really the only difference between a sci-fi civilisation that advanced and a civilisation of gods in a high fantasy setting. Regardless, what my point truly is, is that the significant, drastic, and if you ask me, completely unnecessary increase in terms of the scale was quite the anti-climatic end considering what the franchise had been building up to for so long.


I'm not sure why an increase in scale would be anti-climactic. Isn't that the opposite of the definition of anti-climactic? Also, what did you think that the franchise was building up to? Given what happened in the bonus mission in Broodwar, it was obvious to me that there was going to be an increase in scale and stakes.
@Jono

I wasn't aware that Amon had followers. I don't think it was ever addressed in the games, or at least I don't remember that. All I know is that he had Narud and the Tal'Darim to serve him. My issue with the Xel'Naga is that they just seemed way too powerful for the scope of the game and it felt shockingly random to have such near-godlike beings in what was a pretty tame setting. Before that we had basically three races waging war on each other and we could observe their endless intrigues. It was fun seeing the desperation war of the Terran, the hopeless crusade of the Protoss and the gluttonous onslaught of the Zerg. The story revolved around the many little figures manipulating the world through the domino effect pretty much. Suddenly, an unstoppable force that was hell-bent on destroying the universe for reasons unknown to us (or at least me - I don't recall Amon's reasoning ever being mentioned in-game) pops out of nowhere and threatens to obliterate everything. Now, generally there's nothing too bad about that (although the scale was still much too high for my taste) but it would've been much better if that was done through the many, minor manipulations of the little figures instead of simply forging one of the characters into a god and pitting it against other gods. That just seemed... sub-standard for StarCraft. In the tease during Brood War, I suspected that there'd be a big threat in the future, but saw it more like a covert one lingering in the shadows. I thought Amon would be more like the sharp and deadly dagger that gets swiftly stabbed in the back of the other characters, not the massive bludgeoning hammer that drops from the sky and annihilates the galaxy. It didn't feel natural for the world to me. Then again, so did HotS and especially LotV. Kerrigan's gradual and continuous power-ups reminded me of badly directed movies and low quality fanfiction. It seemed like the easy way out of the sophisticated politics and plots in the previous games.

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