14 Feb 2014 Forum Guidelines - Please Read Welcome to the World of Warcraft discussion forums! This forum is here to provide you with a friendly environment where you can discuss all aspects of World of Warcraft with your fellow players. Community forums work best when participants treat their fellow posters with respect and courtesy. Therefore, we ask that you take the time to read through the forum Code of Conduct before posting. Search The new search function at the top of the World of Warcraft community site is extremely robust. Please be sure to use it to look for similar topics, blog posts, or web pages that may contain the answer before creating your forum topic. Making a new thread on an existing subject will likely result in your thread being deleted. If you continue to repost it you're likely to have your posting privileges suspended for spamming. Worst of all, you'll be making the other forum goers upset that you didn't take a minute to search before posting. Reporting You can quickly report a post as trolling or spam, or use the report function to fill out a more comprehensive description of the violation. You can only rate each post once. Use it wisely to help foster a positive and helpful forum community. Guidelines In addition to the Forum Code of Conduct (, here are some common courtesy guidelines to follow to ensure these forums remain a constructive and friendly gathering place for the community. While these do technically fall within the bounds of the Code of Conduct, these cover more specific examples of common errors that will lead to thread deletions or posting privileges being revoked. The World of Warcraft forums are for discussion of topics directly related to World of Warcraft The forums here are specifically to discuss the game and related topics. Any topics not related to World of Warcraft, or Blizzard are subject to deletion. Don't post in all capital letters, use a misleading title, excessive punctuation, non-standard symbols, etc. While everyone wants their posts read, we ask you to refrain from using these types of tactics in order to bring more people to your thread. Let your post stand on its own merit. Threads violating this guideline are subject to deletion. Using the words Blizzard, Blue, or any community team members name in a thread topic to gather attention is frowned upon Everyone would like Blizzard to read and acknowledge his or her post, and we understand that. However, use of such words in the topic does not help that come to pass. Please make your thread title relevant to the post subject. Threads violating this guideline are subject to deletion. Note that threads discussing e.g. the Blizzard authenticator or Blizzard’s latest press release are allowed to have Blizzard in the title as it’s then relevant to the discussion. Posting "First" or IBTL constitutes as spamming You will be suspended if you create a post that is intended to call out that you achieved a specific reply number in a thread. This is considered spamming. Posting IBTL (in before the lock) is not helpful and if you feel a thread should be moderated please use the rating button to do so. Posting TLDR or L2P constitutes as trolling Posting TLDR (Too Long, Didn’t Read) is saying you don’t care about a player’s post. Posting L2P (Learn to Play) mocks the player for their skill or experience level rather than provide constructive input on the post itself. Both are considered trolling and will lead to a suspension.Takralus2 14 Feb 2014
14 Jun Therapy Lounge for Healers - The Legion Edition! On the 14th of March 2012 Valonia made the longest running topics on our beloved Healing boards. I don't think anyone could have imagined that at the present day, this topic would still be active. And since I can't decribe it better then Valonia did, I'm shamelessly going to copy / paste her welcome post as it describes the Lounge perfectly. ... Ladies and gentleman! I bid thee welcome to the new Therapy Lounge for Healers - The Legion Edition! Lets keep this awesome place going, and see how far we'll get this time :D. Previous lounges: Therapy Lounge for Healers Therapy Lounge for Healers - The WoD Edition 14 Jun
21 Apr [Guide] WW PvE 8.0 Since my first guide was not really in depth i wanted to create a more in depth guide, and i don't have enough placeholders for that This guide is pretty similar to the German version from Shadlii/Yilwi, so if you are active in that forum, you might recognize the layout. 1 - Best way to get Help 1. Read the complete guide, and the bonus parts on if you are new/unsure 2. Post on the character you need help/add a link to that character so we can see your gear/talents etc. 3. Give us information about your problems, the easiest way to do that is via warcraftlogs! 4. Always be polite! Even if you have an other opinion than the person that is trying to help you or discusses with youWajoba13 21 Apr
19 Apr 2017 [Guide] Brewmaster - Get rolling with the Brews Introduction I decided to make this guide to help those who want to play Brewmaster in legion and bring more clarity to the spec. What will this guide include? -A quick understanding how abilities synergize and how they function. -How to appropriately gear up your Brewmaster so you don't feel like a wet sponge. - Make you understand how each stat benefits the BrM so you can build around it to suit your play-style. -Bring you closer to enlightenment to how amazing and complex this spec is. Abilities and Core Mechanics Brewmaster is a leather wearing tank that specializes in dodging and delaying damage through a mechanic called Stagger. With the use of brews Brewmaster are able to delay more damage into stagger and get rid of a percentage of damage currently in stagger. With the use of of certain abilities Brewmasters are able to reduce the time needed for a brew to ready again. The Brews Our core abilities here are IronSkin Brew which delays a further 40% of damage taken into stagger and Purifying Brew that clears 50% of damage currently in stagger. These two abilities share charges with each other and is important to learn how to balance the use of these respective brews. Fortifying Brew gives you a buff for 15 sec, increasing your current and maximum health by 20%, increasing the damage you delay with Stagger by an additional 20%, and reducing all damage you take by 20% and is our major defensive ability on a 7 min CD Talented- Black Ox Brew: When used instantly refills your Energy, and restores your Ironskin Brew and Purifying Brew charges. It has a 90 second CD Abilities that shorten the CDs of your Brews Like any Drunk fighter trying get more brews, you obviously Keg Smash and Tiger Palm anything in your way for more delicious brews, YUM! Keg Smash dealing damage to all enemies within 8 yds and reducing their movement speed by 50% for 15 sec and reduces the remaining cooldown on your Brews by 4 sec. Tiger Palm: Damages the target and reduces the remaining cooldown on your Brews by 1 sec. The section above named "The Brews" is all the cooldowns that are affected by Keg Smash and Tiger Palm. So with perfect play you could reduce the cooldown of Fortifying Brew down to 3.5 minutes which is half of its original time. This synergy between Keg Smash , Tiger Palm and Brews is the core mechanic of Brewmasters Core Passive Abilities Stagger: delaying 40% of Physical damage and turning it into stagger and taking that damage over the next 10 sec. Affects magical attacks at half effectiveness. This is mechanic is what the Brewmasters is built around and with the talent High tolerance we can increase from this from 40% to 50% Stagger. Our Mastery is: Elusive Brawler grants a stacking dodge chance increase each time you are hit by an attack until you dodge an attack, and also passively increase attack power. This is one of our best average physical damage reduction abilities and should not be ignored. Celestial Fortune: You have a chance equal to your critical strike chance to be healed for an additional 65% of the amount healed. This affects your healing and healing done onto you by a healer. This also works for Absorbs. Gift of the Ox: When you take damage equal to your maximum health , you summon a Healing Sphere visible only to you. Moving through this Healing Sphere heals you for (750% of Attack power). Damage is this statement refers to damage taken before absorbs and stagger. ( DR reduces damage taken before absorbs/stagger i.e 100dmg, 20%DR =80 dmg which is used to calculated GotO) The ability Expel Harm collects all of your Healing Spheres, and damages the nearest enemy for 10% of the amount healed. Which is a nice ability if you don't want to move around to collect your healing spheres.Swifthorn97 19 Apr 2017
21 Mar 2014 Making a Guide? Here in the class forums, players often put together awesome guides to help the rest of the community. However, due to the high number of sticky request we receive each day, these guides sometimes fall off the front page before we can sticky them. If you have just posted a guide or if you’d like to nominate a guide here on the European forums to be stickied, please send an email to the Community team, including a link to the guide you'd like stickied, at: Alternatively, guide writers can help us spot their threads by putting [Guide] in the title :)Takralus0 21 Mar 2014
2h New main anyone? Did anyone else log on after pre-patch and realizing that they butchered WW, especially in PvP? I am going to change my mind about maining Monk in BfA unless they un!@#$ WW. Not really a fan of the new MW playstyle either... I just wanted to know if there are more people like me out there that do not want to main monk anymore, and wanted to ask: what are you playing instead? I am really struggling to find a replacement. My BfA hype is quickly dying out because of the pre-patch disappointment when it came to MW and WW. Especially WW!:-(Vanara1 2h
4h Mistweaver Monk Pvp Hey. I have been playing Mistweaver monk up to level 50 and found it to be the most enjoyable pvp healer class i have ever played. Now, with the new patch i think the class has been spoiled. Is it right that now Soothing Mist can no longer be cast while moving and can now be interrupted ? Any chance that this will change before BFA hits ? I can cope with standing still while soothing mist is cast but now its not auto cast and can be interrupted which i think is really unfair. Im not sure why they have changed what was the fundamental core of monk healing. Are other mistweaver monks feeling the same or are you happy with the changes ?Wintrow7 4h
5h mistweaver feels weird Am I the only misteweaver who just doesnt feel like a mistwaever anymore? I used to be able to run around and actually have fun kiting melees but now I stand still most of the game not really able to do much and even trying to fake people with soothing mist feels bad because of the gcd change where I just end up ccing myself for a few secLildaddy2 5h
5h What is your monk class fantasy? Well for me, mine would have to be a martial arts master, fighting with only his fists, taking on massively geared opponents in their gear dodging and weaving through their attacks to strike their vital points. Sort of like taijutsu from naruto. What about you guys?Zukø7 5h
6h Enlightenment buff gone? Can't believe I lost my 15h enlightenment buff. I just took a short break waiting for the pre-patch to release. Saved it up to level this monk 1 month in advance for BFA. And now it's gone??Nickyra0 6h
6h has ww design ever been this bad? has ww design ever been this bad?Fotmidiot16 6h
7h Give us Emperor's Capacitor in BFA Hello fellow monks, what I'll be missing most in post-Legion Windwalker is the gameplay changing legendary "The Emperor's Capacitor" gone. It gave Crackling Jade Lightning a reason to be used in single target fights and required some preplanning to use. In M+ you had to watch out you don't cast it when Quaking is coming up or you had to move. You also had to plan to align it with your SEF etc. Overall it gave this ability a purpose. Without the legendary there was no reason to ever use the ability other than maybe for keeping Hit Combo up when you literally got nothing else to press. But the stacking buff just felt good. You knew that your next Crackling with 20 Stacks would hit really hard and it made the class as a whole more fun to play. Please consider giving us this in some form back in BFA. CheersXerabtw1 7h
8h Monk leveling question Hey everyone! So I just started a monk and got this cool buff "Enlightenment", buffing XP by 50%. So the questions are: - Does this stack with Heilrooms? I know RaF bonus doesn't stack with it, so I got confused. - Also while we're talkign about stacking: does war mode bonus and the monk buff stack? - If my only goal is to level up a monk in as little (IRL) time as possible, is it worth waiting for the next day and make the buff last longer or should I just think of it as a once-a-day XP boost for an hour? Thanks in advance for the answers! Cheers!Lenthien1 8h
11h Brewmaster at low level I have now tanked brewmaster from 15-61, and after the patch I have noticed that: they are hard to heal as well as super squishy and not very self sustainable at all. An example of something super crazy is the boss in diremaul immol'thar. I used literally all my cds to survive it and I still both died or survived just barely. As well I tried to kite him. its like: play perfectly or die both from monk tank perspective and healer on that boss and a few others, but not that many. But it feels like monk tanks really need some help at lower levels. They can easily get destroyed pulling 1 or 2 packs in some cases unlike other tanks. Also to note: I know monk tanks have to kite quite a bit and collect healing orbs, but after the patch its just a different level of squishy scenarios even though you are kiting. You must be on the move a lot. I thought that I just was unlucky getting monk tanks when I healed dungeons after the scaling patch but its literally that monk tanks are just dying fairly easy.Kaisja4 11h
12h Renewing Mists Jump I may have been dreaming, but wasn't renewing mists being changed; whereby if you cast to an ally with an existing renew mists spell, the existing spell would jump?Daishiro4 12h
12h Does Windwalker Get Good at 120? To anyone that has played Windwalker at level 120 on the Beta, does it get stronger than it is at 110 on Live? Our burst is weak, our CC on single-target is weak, and our healing is a constant spam, probably the worst healing experience of any spec. I've enjoyed Windwalker immensely in Legion, more than I've enjoyed any class ever before, but right now I feel like an Enhancement Shaman with less range, less damage and less healing.Machias4 12h
12h Rising Sun Kick is broken Rising Sun Kick is currently less efficient to use than two Blackout Kicks in a row (even if you ignore mastery). This completely destroys the windwalker playstyle of never using 2 abilities in a row. I really hope Blizzard is looking to fix this issue soon. It feels absolutely clunky to play the spec like this. The reason behind this is that BOK reduces the CD of Fists of Fury, which is our new top priority ability. Currently RSK serves no other purpose other than enabling WDP while previously it was our highest priority spell. I hope they change it back to the highest prio spell, as RSK should really be one of our hardest hitting abilities by far.Xerabtw2 12h
12h Is monk truly this fun? Is everyone enjoying his monk so much or am I just having some kind of honeymoon phase? I'm very new to monk (and actually just recently got back in the game) and never considered trying out monk in the past. What a shame. His healing is pretty fun, perhaps even as fun as druid and the damage moves fits so nice in the monk theme. I must be too blind to see the nasty things right? Or are monks the happiest of all in WoW? (Druids are happy too, or at least were as far as I remember)Phunkie7 12h
13h Mistweaving /cry I knew these changes were coming but I didn't think they would be so clunky to use in play. I just healed my first mythic and really struggled. Why remove Soothing Mist from being an active auto? I could deal with the other changes (VIVIFY) if it wan't for that. Anyone have advice on how not to suck with these changes?Zenyae9 13h
16h Can't equip my artifact Hey all, I unequipped my artifact on my newly-boosted Mistweaver Monk and now I can't equip it again. It's greyed out as if it were unavailable to me. Has anyone else encountered this and know what I can do to? Thanks in advance, BanuenBañuen3 16h
21h Rate The transmog above I wanna see some new Transmog :DXúén488 21h
1d good night fof stun my sweet prince ripBalia1 1d
1d Heals are really missing I understand removing couple heals from artifact, but now there are literally no options. In Legion I could teleport and heal, use potions, then use sign for protection and heal. Now I'm dead in the water fast in PVP.Xanoxis0 1d
1d The Windwalker Monk Riot You are literally destroying the Windwalker Class. You are removing everything that can be called Windwalker Class Fantasy. What are you doing to our class? Paralysis on 15 second cooldown, fist of fury stun that restuns several times and leg sweep on a 5 second duration wasn't OP in mists of pandaria. Why? Because every other class wasn't pruned to !@#$. Give everyone else their spells back, and for god sake give us our %^-* back. Look at what you are doing to the windwalker specialization. Do you really think the new play style will be more "fun" than it is now? Afterall we play this game to have fun. Sign my petition to remove the windwalker class-designers at blizzard by giving this forum post a thumbs up. Its obvious they have no clue what is fun in the life of a human (or a monk). There is already classes which are made for doing nothing else than doing damage, and those classes have been complained to be the most boring classes in Legion (Warrior). Why would you make more of those classes?Hefners24 1d
1d Revival visual gone, why? I'm was in a raid and saw the warloks new flashy soul well and summoning stone, and just thought why did they take away the most coolest visual of the mistweaver monk. I don't get why?Capitalpop0 1d
1d Bm leveling in warmode tips Hi to all fellow monks. So im going to aim BM monk in BfA, and I haven’t main monk since mop. I will probably lvl as a BM cause im to lazy to change specs and find 2 sets of gear (and the fact i have 3 kids and little time also helps), and im a passionate person for Wpvp and im super hyped with warmode. I haven’t tryed monk in alpha or beta so im asking can we do, as a BM, wpvp? Or it’s just to bad for trying? Ty in advanceThyago0 1d
2d Gnome tiger palm Hi was wondering if anyone is having the same problem as me. When as a gnome monk the sound of the tiger palm does not connect unlike other characters. With other characters theres a loud thudding sound but not with these little guys any reason?? Does anyone know of this? is this is a bug?Eddney0 2d
2d Pre-Patch ww info/tricks Fist of the White Tiger proccs the "old" legendary helmet effect Karma cloak + Helmet are BiS Will add more, as soon as i find somethingWajoba1 2d
2d MW survival hmm Just been doing some skirmishes with al lthe new things on mw, but now 'healing eilixir' doesn't trigger when you're low in a stun or cc without you having to click it. I find its VERY difficult to survive now. That healing elixir saved me so many times before but now once I've used my trinket, I have 0 defencives against rogues and other dps who keep me cc'd for over 5 secs. I was 100% to 0 within a few secs of the stun and I had healing elixir 2 stacks not used, unable to use them. I thought having ring of peace and leg sweep woudl be amazing but I don't get to cast them as much, every other class has an ability they can use while in stun to survive it. For mistweavers that was "healing elixir" since they did away with fortifyign brew i na tun. Now they literally have nothing to defend against i na stun and every game I'm in I am the target as soon as trinket it down. Can I ask why have they made it so MW are the only healer who have 0 defencives now in a stun? What was wrong with healing elixir healing u when your'e very low ina stun. I don't get that one?Capitalpop3 2d
2d WW weapon transmog Swords still not available?Quartis1 2d
3d Monk or? I am currently looking for a new main to start BFA with.. I want all 3 roles on this toon.. For healing i prefer reactive healing and having different choices for different situations For Tanking i want the class with as much controll over the battlefield.. being abble to group mobs quickly in a need nice pack and having nice tools to comtroll adds or ranged casters.. For DPS, i prefer mellee over ranged.. i like strong selfheals and defence as its main use will be PvP, BG’s and open world(which will be huge in BFA).... so burst dps will be very important.... the class needs either to be very mobile, or have so,e ranged abbilities. Currently Monk. paladin or good old druid are my only options.. Monk looks like a very strong choice.. But does Mistweaver have strong enough reactive healing.. And does Brewmaster have strong enough controll.. And since windwalker has no range at all, won’t i miss that? Still doubting if Monk will be the right choice.. Or will one of the other classes fit better? I only have a high level druid Only mid level monk and paladin, so i will be using my 110 boost.Thundertoe2 3d
3d World PvP as Monk Hi guys, I'm wondering if you could tell me about WPvP as Monk in BfA. I'm currently deciding whether to switch to monk (I'm maining DH rn) for BfA, mostly because Monk has similar fast-paced meele gamestyle, but it also enables me to be a healer, and that's the part of game I wanted to explore for some time now. However I'm not a hardcore raider, I'll mostly do casual stuff + PvP in BfA. So I wanted to know - how is monk doing in World PvP? Both as healer and DPS? Any comparisons to DH would be lovely. Thank you guys and take care!Sobieskiy8 3d
3d Show me your funny monk names! <--------- I like my dwarf monk's name!Hayabooza246 3d
3d How are brewmasters? How are they from a random bg point of view? Squishy or tanky, their dmg and utility? Have you had fun with them in pvp?Xinwi4 3d
3d Too few monks? Is the WW community too small to be heard? WWs were strong in Legion because of their hit-and-run stunlock burst. They removed 1 stun, nerfed the other one hard, nerfed incap hard and out SotWL burst is gone. Just because the spec is still one of the most enjoyable to play in PvE this seems to have gone through without enough fight-back. Is the community tok small for PvP WWers to be heard?Vanara2 3d
5d WW monk changes So in BfA ww monks only have 1 self heal which has a cast time since healing elixir, karma healing and transcendence healing were removed. Paralysis now has a 45 sec cd and so does transcendence. Leg sweep stun duration is now 3 seconds. Also Fists of fury stun is removed in pvp. Energizing elixir now only restores 2 chi. Hit combo nerfed by 50% too. Seems very promisingSprainbow12 5d
5d Why cant use swords like everybody else? I really love my ww monk, but I always had one problem with it: I could never understand why am I using my hands / fist weapons instead of my swords. Even when I had swords equipped, I could never actually use it. Two cool swords on my back, okey, but why exactly? Its nothing more but simple decoration. I miss the old ability from MoP ( "jab" i thik that was its name) when ww monk was like a real warrior shaolin kung fu monk. It was so bad in Legion when there was a demon boss before me, and I was like " Okey, big guy, I gonna defeat you with my bare hands!!!" I'm sure that demon tought the paladin next to me with his Ashbringer is a lot scarrier...Thoradiel13 5d
6d Mistweaver monk artifact quest HELP! Is there some kinda trick to completing the quest I cannot do the last boss for the life of me everyone is too hard to heal, does anyone have any advice. Im really new to healing in general.Zenmooism18 6d
12 Jul Monk staff placement So i was wonering...if there are any chances we see changes to the placement of monks staffs using a glyph...i mean Glyph of jab makes the monk not to use his/hers why not also make them appear normalShinjo15 12 Jul
11 Jul Brewmaster in BFA When tanking on brewmaster in legion, i feel no sensation at all, maybe its the stagger mechanic that somehow feels like slowing down things.. But i don’t get those “oh yeah” moments i get on many other specs and tanks. They feel the total opposite of mistweaver... Hope this changes in BFA as i really like the other 2 specs...Thundertoe1 11 Jul
11 Jul I love my MW however... Hello there I love the new version of mw in BFA. However I have a little problem. I don't like play as a WW or a BRM (this last one is ok but I didn't feel in love) . So then, outside of dungeon I would like to do all the quests but with MW it will take me ages to kill a mob and also it's DPS rotation rotation is boring Should I thinking of reroll to another healer which I can play and enjoy its sub class or should I keep with MW?Incienso4 11 Jul
10 Jul WW monk changes from MOP to BFA After reading this topic I asked myself a question: how many spells did Blizzard tune from MOP to BFA? I mean active non-talent spells for windwalker monk in terms of utility or usage, without considering damage prune *cough* wod *cough* What I found is that 19% of spells were removed, 44% were changed, so overall 63% were "tuned" for the sake of "Class Fantasy". What class fantasy does monk have? List of changes: Removed: Chi Sphere Expel Harm Healing Elixirs Healing Sphere Spinning Fire Blossom Nerfed: Effuse -> Will become Vivify (expect even less healing) Tigereye Brew -> Changed to pets (SEF) Blackout Kick -> Could apply 20% of dmg DOT or Heal Paralysis -> CD from 15 to 45 sec Transcendence: Transfer -> CD from 25 to 45 sec Rushing Jade Wind -> Moved to talents Fortifying Brew -> Moved to talents Fists of Fury -> No longer stuns, doesn't provide 100% parry Tiger Palm -> Reduced target's armor by 30% Touch of Death -> Was an instant execute Touch of Karma -> Was providing 100% shield Grapple Weapon -> Moved to pvp talents Unchanged: Detox Disable Flying Serpent Kick Provoke Resuscitate Rising Sun Kick Roll  Spear Hand Strike Spinning Crane Kick Worth menthioning: BFA: Healing elixirs removed BFA: Transcendence healing removed from artifact weapon WOD: prunes that reduced healing of Effuse to the ground P.S. Please, the argument that it's "alpha" means nothing, I do remember how many gimp things came through alpha and beta of legion in terms of pvp. We either act now or never.Chishe27 10 Jul
08 Jul Good Mw guides? just hit 110 threw invasions and have decided to test out MW healing to see if I actually enjoy it and to possibly main in BFA. However just went into a KJ lfr and didn't have a clue what I was doing. Looking for a basic/up to date guide on how to play MW cheers.Thradía4 08 Jul
08 Jul Nerf please Why Monks are so easy to play with?? They need to get a nerf like most of the other classes did. Monk is like immortal if you know what you're doing. I can't stand it. So annoying.Sål14 08 Jul
07 Jul Rate my tmog :D Idk about the helm, but ive grown to like the overall look. Rate it :DOdder2 07 Jul
05 Jul bfa ww weapons? any monk who's done alpha or beta that have seen if we can use poles, swords etc as windwalker? so damn tired of the boring fistweapons, bugged and boring transmog shelted in pockets.Ztiff7 05 Jul
04 Jul A few changes and suggestions. 1.DPS (WW monk ) I have suggestions to change the skill flying serpent kick for something more climactic and useful, similar to heroic leap ( warior ) or infernal strike ( Demon hunter, tank - Vengeance ) and ending up with a blow from the knee 2.Tank (Brewmaster) my second suggestion : throwing barrels is not very climatic and there is not much in common with martial arts, Fire breathing also --this can be replaced by climatic hits and kicks. what do you think about it? Have a nice day everyone :)Inuaritu2 04 Jul
03 Jul Rate the Monk name above you! first :DKungfurry18 03 Jul
03 Jul Why Fists of Fury in BFA doesn't stun or i'm confused? I enter BFA and check the talents etc.. and i see Fists of Fury doesn't stun i don't understand why blizzard remove???????????????????????????????????????????????? Or tell me if i'm confused and i don't check good all......Mzw2 03 Jul
03 Jul Leveling a WW monk Hey atm I'm leveling a WW monk and a Survival hunter. I like them both, but the monk seems so slow to level.. With heirlooms , then mobs need 5-6 hits before it dies now at level 53. the hunter 1-2 hints before the mob dies. Does that change at max level? The Hunter seems so much stronger. They are both fully geared heirlooms. both 53Zaulan3 03 Jul