14 Feb 2014 Forum Guidelines - Please Read Welcome to the World of Warcraft discussion forums! This forum is here to provide you with a friendly environment where you can discuss all aspects of World of Warcraft with your fellow players. Community forums work best when participants treat their fellow posters with respect and courtesy. Therefore, we ask that you take the time to read through the forum Code of Conduct before posting. Search The new search function at the top of the World of Warcraft community site is extremely robust. Please be sure to use it to look for similar topics, blog posts, or web pages that may contain the answer before creating your forum topic. Making a new thread on an existing subject will likely result in your thread being deleted. If you continue to repost it you're likely to have your posting privileges suspended for spamming. Worst of all, you'll be making the other forum goers upset that you didn't take a minute to search before posting. Reporting You can quickly report a post as trolling or spam, or use the report function to fill out a more comprehensive description of the violation. You can only rate each post once. Use it wisely to help foster a positive and helpful forum community. Guidelines In addition to the Forum Code of Conduct (, here are some common courtesy guidelines to follow to ensure these forums remain a constructive and friendly gathering place for the community. While these do technically fall within the bounds of the Code of Conduct, these cover more specific examples of common errors that will lead to thread deletions or posting privileges being revoked. The World of Warcraft forums are for discussion of topics directly related to World of Warcraft The forums here are specifically to discuss the game and related topics. Any topics not related to World of Warcraft, or Blizzard are subject to deletion. Don't post in all capital letters, use a misleading title, excessive punctuation, non-standard symbols, etc. While everyone wants their posts read, we ask you to refrain from using these types of tactics in order to bring more people to your thread. Let your post stand on its own merit. Threads violating this guideline are subject to deletion. Using the words Blizzard, Blue, or any community team members name in a thread topic to gather attention is frowned upon Everyone would like Blizzard to read and acknowledge his or her post, and we understand that. However, use of such words in the topic does not help that come to pass. Please make your thread title relevant to the post subject. Threads violating this guideline are subject to deletion. Note that threads discussing e.g. the Blizzard authenticator or Blizzard’s latest press release are allowed to have Blizzard in the title as it’s then relevant to the discussion. Posting "First" or IBTL constitutes as spamming You will be suspended if you create a post that is intended to call out that you achieved a specific reply number in a thread. This is considered spamming. Posting IBTL (in before the lock) is not helpful and if you feel a thread should be moderated please use the rating button to do so. Posting TLDR or L2P constitutes as trolling Posting TLDR (Too Long, Didn’t Read) is saying you don’t care about a player’s post. Posting L2P (Learn to Play) mocks the player for their skill or experience level rather than provide constructive input on the post itself. Both are considered trolling and will lead to a suspension.Takralus2 14 Feb 2014
04 Jan 2016 Story Forum "Guidelines" and Suggestions We've adapted the description of this forum to include Fan Fiction, and we encourage you to share your stories here! This rest of this post is taken from Nethaera's thread on the US forums: I know more than a few people have been asking if there are guidelines to posting in these forums. The answer is yes and no both. Confusing, I know, but you'll understand once I explain. First, if you are sharing a story here, it should be fictional and set in the Warcraft universe. Can you break canon? Yes. It's your story. Just please try not to go too far afield. Your audience will appreciate some semblance of familiarity. Next, you've asked about just how far language, sexual themes, or violent themes can go, so I'll explain here. Keep in mind, the forum Code of Conduct still applies. Also, keep in mind the rating (T for Teen) as well. When you want a good example story, please take a look at Blizzard's own for World of Warcraft. That should give you a good comparison for your own tales. Use your best judgement. If you ask yourself, "Is this too far?", it just might be and you might want to consider doing another editing pass. While not everyone may agree on taste, try to keep it as tasteful as possible. If you're sharing a story, it may be a good idea to put "complete" at the bottom of your story if it takes more than one post to tell it. We know there are restrictions on the forums that may hinder you a bit, but this may give you the room to post without someone jumping in before you're done and so that the reader knows they are reading a "finished" (we all know no story is ever really finished) piece of work. Authors may also want to express at the bottom of their completed tale if they are open to constructive feedback. Some may not want feedback other than to hear if someone enjoyed it and some may be looking for others to help them hone their skills. The best way to solicit either is to make it clear what you would like. "Constructive feedback welcome." If you are a reader, please be considerate. If you didn't like a story or liked it, then sharing constructive feedback is fine. But, please make sure you do it in a way that isn't insulting to the author if the author has asked for or made it clear they are open to feedback. Most importantly, we all know that these types of efforts are very personal to the author. I'd like to ask authors not to take feedback too personally and likewise for those that give constructive feedback. Please don't make it personal. Personal attacks are definitely not OK here. This is largely 'your' forum to make of what you like in the end. While we have the power to moderate and help mold, the shape of it all is largely up to you and what you make of it as a community. *I've left this thread open on purpose so that any additional etiquette discussions or questions could be kept here. Feel free to talk amongst yourselves.Takralus8 04 Jan 2016
4m I don't get how world-souls become titans My fellow Azerothians (or Draenorians, or Argussians), I have a question concerning the titans becoming an actual titan. Now, what do I know about titans? And correct me here when I stray away from the path of truth. Titans aren't anthropomorph, godlike creatures once they are born/created. Every planet that we can find in the cosmos is actually a living, breathing thing. A world-soul, if you will. Titans are, while they are world-souls, unable to wake up. Other titans (namely the Pantheon) seek out world-souls to defend them, either themselves or by creating defense mechanisms. Once a world-soul has had enough rest, or it's bored or whatever, it wakes up and becomes real humanoid titan. But this is the part which confuses me. Imagine such a world-soul waking up. For years, it has formed a crust around him (which is the planet itself). What happens to the material part of the planet? Will the world-soul kind of step out of it, destroying the planet in the process? Or will the whole planet wake up, becoming the body of the world-soul? Or will the world-soul just leave the planet in a more peaceful way? I always thought that I understood the way titans work, about how they wake up. But I got confused when I saw the in-game cinematic about the aftermath of the Argus fight, especially since Argus was killed but the planet was still happily (well, 'happily'...) floating around (take a look here: So how does that work, a world-soul waking up?Haiete1 4m
6m BFA seems pretty depressing for the Horde It's a pretty crap time to be Horde. Psycho dead Elf in charge, most of the core Horde races lacking strong leadership, Dwarves assaulting Mulgore (for some asspull reason), the attack on the Nelves turning out to be a complete failure leaving the enemy running rampant in Ashenvale and threatening Orgrimmar, and that's just in Kalimdor. Across the pond, the Forsaken are being killed by their own leader, have pulled out of Gilneas and are running with their tail between their legs while the Alliance reclaim Lordaeron. And to top it all, Saurfang, the one decent character they haven't killed off, has gone and wussed out and left us all in the lurch. It's really quite crap. I mean, Blizz said this was supposed to be a morally grey war, but the allys are whiter than white and can do no wrong now. Holy hell, just give us SOMETHING!Zuruzan96 6m
12m Tyrande and BfA Is there any chances for Tyrande finally get proper development, or she will be ruined absolutely forever?Песньзимы43 12m
23m Horde are children murderers? [spoilers] Hi! Here are Night Elves citizens quotes inside burning Teldrassil: "Please! Help me! I cannot find my daughter! Please! Help me! I cannot find my daughter! Please, anybody! Please find my family! Please, anybody! Please find my family! I cannot leave without my child! Please, somebody, help! I cannot leave without my child! Please, somebody, help! Ishala! Ishala! Are you out there?!? Please, Ishala -- listen to my voice! Ishala! Ishala! Are you out there?!? Please, Ishala -- listen to my voice! The flames are clear! Get to the Temple of the Moon! The flames are clear! Get to the Temple of the Moon! Hero... Hero? Can you hear my voice? I am... so... glad I found you... Thank you! I hope the others made it out... ... I don't... understand... Curse the Horde. Curse them all! Darnassus cannot be lost... It cannot end like this! Elune save us! Water! Please! Please!! AAAHHH!! Why is this happening?! It's so... hot... Put it out! Someone! Anyone! Please, help me!" - so, according to those quotes there was Night Elven children in Teldrassil. But on the Beta, there is no NE children in Stormwind. That means Horde murderer all children !!! Will somebody dare to say now that Sylvanas is not evil ???Призраклеса34 23m
1h Saurfang's betrayal will not be forgotten! He should've ended Malfurion than and there. The Warchief even gave him a moment if he needed then finish him and get back too it. Saurfang's actions has damaged the Horde since taking out such a powerful leader as Malfurion would've benefitted the Horde greatly and left the Night Elven forces in a weakened state. The thing was, it was not a proper Mak'gora, so I think the writters have taking his honor-obsession a bit too far. He was about to die against Malfurion because of how much more powerful he is until the Dark Lady intervened and saved him. And the Dark Lady were having trouble finishing him off, so Saurfang came to the Warchief's rescue, which is all according to his duty, protect the Warchief. And then he freaks out for almost taking Malfurion out in one blow? Give me a break. Sylvanas isn't the type of person who would engage in a Mak'gora, so it's just Saurfang's view of the fight. Makes no sense. But he feels so ashamed, for no reason?! That he allows Malfurion to live. I always loved Saurfang, he was always a real orc. But now? What have they done too him? Why have they made him abandon the Horde and refuse to finish such an important target? I do not know, but I am sad to hear it.Ernst28 1h
1h Queen azshara stuffed in a small raid ? I love the Lore behind Queen Azshara, the elfs , the well of eternity , the war of the ancients. The fact that they just stuffed in in a smaller raid just scrambles my head. i mean she was / is 1 of the strongest. even Sargeras warned mannoroth to not mess with the queen cause he was no match. ( he wasnt that strong but still if sargeras warned him he knew what she could do ) and he would deal with her himself when the time was right. i am 1 of few that thinks she diserved a whole expac based around her not only underwater zones but many things more that can fill up the expac. Xavius is already taken care off but the naga and Azshara are still a major threat to the world. to put her in a smaller raid of a different expansion just feels wrong.Chúkky20 1h
2h Surprisingly pleased with Horde Campaign SPOILERS Hi everyone, Part 4 about the Horde war campaign is out....and its good. Surprisingly good. -Rexxar is willing to protect a human family. And shows respect and honour with them. -Lillian Voss no longer forces the human to turn Forsaken. In fact she argues against it, but ends up doing so to save him from the Void corrupting disease thats slowly killing him. The whole thing had this vibe about welcoming a new outcast and giving him a second chance. While also displaying the typical orcish honour about honoring promises and respecting the innocent. Must say, that Blizzard seemed to listen to all the negative feedback and toned a little the whole thing to make it more palatable for everyone. Forsaken get to keep their "thing", but Rexxar's character isn't alienated by it, and it manages to blend in with these actions by giving them his distinctive "honorable" touch. No longer seems to be about forcibly converting mind-slaves, but in this case by truly "saving" a lost fella and bonding as willing allies. Even if things turn out kind of bad for the poor Tidesage that tried to save his family, he still bows to help them no matter what. I find it very nice and fitting.Zarao28 2h
2h The Forsaken - Shaming us... 'Ours is a cycle of hatred. Alliances forged and broken, we have paid the price for sharing this world and we have forgotten what makes us strong' Before beginning this essay, can I just say this is World of WARcraft. Let me just say the main word one more time WAR. Viewing recent discussion on the Story and General forums across the US and EU it would seem as though many people are being rather pessimistic about the Horde and Sylvanas, if you often visit the forums you must be blind not to see this. 1.) Sylvanas and the Forsaken have been raising human enemies at least since the early quests levelling a forsaken. Godfrey - Deathstalker Commander Belmot says: Godfrey will be our ace in the hole. With his knowledge of Gilneas and of the Worgen, we cannot fail. (Raising an enemy to get knowledge and battle plans) After doing so to Godfrey and his two companions: Lord Walden: 'Rage is the only emotion I have left' Lord Walden: 'I am more than Forsaken... more than a man... I am something new. Something... else. Baron Ashbury: 'Being Forsaken has its benefits. Let me see... I am able to practically live underwater. I can stay submerged 233% longer than any fleshy mortal. Yes count it, 233%' Baron Ashbury: 'Oh, and I am now able to shrug off mind controlling effects - BECAUSE I LACK A Brain' Baron Ashbury: 'And perhaps the best part, I now have a hungering for the flesh of other humanoids. Cannibalising their rotting corpses grants me power. Yes, DE-LI-CIOUS.' I have seen so many people post about how, how on earth could a member of the Alliance or Kul'Tiras once turned suddenly become loyal to the Forsaken cause, perhaps you should think perhaps there are side effect to the change... Such as above, hunger of flesh, the feeling of rage, the feeling of enhanced power such as immortality. I agree with some peoples statements that: 'how do people just suddenly change their mind to kill their own people after 5 seconds' - I do agree that in the recent storylines data-mined that it seems slightly odd, however obviously from Lillians words they now have 0 choice to return to their people, yes they are vulnerable, alone. However perhaps the invitation to live forever with other people going through the same pain as you might actually be comforting, the Tidesage in the storyline was about to die from a horrible disease, your telling me if someone stood over you on your death bed and you knew you could ask them to bring you back you wouldn't? I think most people forget almost every single human is afraid of dieing, if you were given a second chance, wiped clean slate would you really say 'Actually just kill me again please, i don't want this second chance, yes perhaps its a different lifestyle, but I want to just die without exploring it'. People playing this game seem to just flash over the fact that life is actually hard and difficult and perhaps a second chance with no morals is inviting to some. From all the comments it seems as though people forget that, the raised forsaken isn't YOU. The characters in this game haven't had the same upbringing as you, in reality the life of a character in this game is horrible, your constantly at war, in danger, you can't even go outside your capital city without possibly being murdered. Maybe an offer of a second life would be inviting to some? I honestly could grab multiple examples of all of this together through out the game, however i've played to level 33 and only included the Forsaken early questing to express these examples and some data-minded information. I feel too many people are bashing the Horde, Sylvanas, logging into Horde level 1-50 character to make out that the Horde hate her character, that the main storyline is about the Forsaken, characters such as Lillian Voss shouldn't be involved even though she is a forsaken, I even saw someone comment that Rexxar should be an Alliance character. I just need to say as a true Horde player, no Warchief has ever posed so much a threat whilst including the whole of the Horde to the Alliance. Garrosh didn't give a thought to any race other than Orcs. Sylvanas is the only Horde Warchief to ever command such a Horde VS Alliance WAR in World of WARcraft history. Finally we are having a serious battle, one where cities are decimated, our factions are pushed to the brink, forced to search to areas of Azeroth we have never been before to beg for help from others to survive. This is truly war, too use everything you can, every resource for your side to survive. Stop complaining people. You play world of WARCRAFT, if you want to play World of please create that game and go there. Let the mocking, ripping the post apart, toxic behaviour, 1 word 'No' comments, SJW comments, off topic rambling, trolling, 'your an idiot, I played Vanilla', your sources are wrong, your quotes are wrong, Sylvanas is evil, the writers love her so she is indestructible, the Horde is evil comments commence. Please be respectful of my own and others opinions, perhaps a interesting debate can come of this without the comments listed above. Love Painter xoxoPainter19 2h
3h Arthas has at least a cameo in BFA We are pretty sure that we gonna see a cameo from young arthas 100% since they added a new model for him and uther. But the question is will he make a full comeback into the game too ? I think there is a tiny chance for that. when he died he said he only sees darkness before him. he might have been talking about void lords.Ssten6 3h
3h Baine's involvement (SPOILERS) This is just a mini rant on my part. I really like Tauren. I always liked them. Noble giants, close to the nature, always striving for what is right, but not avoiding the battle if necessary. Tauren, as a people, have always been perceived by me as such - the good guys, led by their belief in the Earth Mother. And I miss Cairne. He was a great leader and an awesome guy. So. I'm a little scared of what might be happening. I'd really think that Baine should be the first to oppose Sylvanas in Lordearon. I know that different people, different personalities and I shouldn't understand all members of a race as if they were joined all together in some sort of a hive mind but really... Watching Tauren BLIGHT the land, an atrocity against the Earth Mother herself and watching Baine not giving a crap about that... It's like he doesn't give a damn about his father or his people's identity. Where is his development going? He's the one who shunned his own people for retaliating for Taurajo, he had the Alliance help him retake Thunder Bluff. He had defended Garrosh during his trial because after consulting with his deceased father, he understood this is the right course of action. And now - ...BLIGHT THE CRAP OUT OF THEM ALL, HORDE OR ALLIANCE WHATEVER!!! I mean... What has happened to him when I wasn't looking?Halasibel47 3h
8h Earth and Wind mages ? We all know that mages can use fire and frost, but can the arcane also form earth and wind ? just like how they do with fire and frost ?Kemyå4 8h
12h EU - Jaina Proudmoore credited for killing Deathwing? The Cataclysm happened some time ago, but I couldn't find a canonical answer to the discussion, so here goes. This ofc, on my part, is more speculation than opinion - I just found it interesting. So, while reading the new Jaina Poudmoore comic "Reunion" I reacted to some of the dialogue, prompting me to google "Who killed Deathwing?" This led me to this post on US servers (I think), which I couldn't respond to: US DISCUSSION: As of May 22nd 2018, Jaina Proudmoore is mockingly given the title "Savior of Azeroth" by Lady Ashvane in the Jaina comic: " Reunion ". Maybe this may be a referrence to her previous deeds as the the slayer of Deathwing, or at least as a contributor of Deathwings demise. The title "Savior of Azeroth" is given to those who defeat Deathwing on Heroic difficulty ( ). Lady Ashvane could've used other words than "Savior" to describe Jaina's deeds for the world, but in the comic she specifically says "Savior of Azeroth". Of course, this could just be some random title, but it's strange to see it appearing now, and such a precisely given title, seeing it's one appropriated towards the slayers of Deathwing IN the game. What are your thoughts? Have I missed something? Who ultimately killed Deathwing? Jaina "Reunion" Comic: 12h
22h The REAL final boss of legion... Credit to a person called Pyromancer on youtube. Thanks for pointing this out! I suggest watching the video, but here's a quick summary of what's discussed: Ion hazzikostas said in an interview that he's really hyped for "the final boss of Legion", which from what we know should be Argus, the Unmaker. What's interesting here is that he also says that "It isn't in the dungeon journal yet because we want to keep it a secret for all players." Argus the Unmaker already is in the journal! He also says "It isn't that special ability wise, but mainly lore wise." Does this mean that legion's final boss isn't Argus? Who would it be? Another clue is found in something blizzard hinted at. I can't seem to find the official source, but it has been discussed multiple times. It was said that "the final boss of Legion will be someone we did not expect, and that this being has been with us since the start of the expansion." Who could this be? Maybe it's Khadgar? He could be a cool end boss... Maybe Velen or Illidan will serve as an avatar of sargeras? Maybe it's ourselves, what if Sargeras corrupts us! Or what if it's our Artifacts? They're very powerful weapons and could maybe be used against us! What do you think about this? Let's get the discussion going!Tinywizurd58 22h
22h Gnome Allied Race - some ideas Let's admit that Mechagnomes (Alliance) and Leper Gnomes (Horde) would be epic - well... for gnome-tolerant people I mean - but to open up this topic, let's start with a race that NOBODY EXPECTED Sand Gnome Allied Race : Horde ...or Alliance ...whatever Racial mount : Bone Worm Racial skills : a survival and mobile race * Desert Ambush : Buries oneself in order to "earthmeld", able to move very slowly under this form by digging the soil. * Outland Gravity Lapse : Flies like an unchained Eye of Kilrogg for 3 seconds. Classes : * Warlock * Monk * Rogue * Dem...errr. Hunter, merely, hunter * Shaman * Warrior Scenario : We would get them by going back to Outland, in the wasted land of Terokkar. One tells that a stubborn researcher from the Explorers' League did find an "incredible lost civilization". Your faction leader sends you to investigate... Well, lore-wise, we can do anything since it's quite empty yet ! My favorite theory would be like : A full detachment of Gnomes accompanied the Sons of Lothar into Draenor, but they were lost when Outland was formed. Totally forgotten by their former own fellow comrades in arms, erased from memories, without the honours of the Valley of heroes before Stormwind, they got feral and adapted to their new world. Capital city: A camp, more or less underground, in "redesigned" draenei ruins near Auchindoun (inspired by Tuskens, Ashlanders, or Mad Max...)Ajaxandriel4 22h
1d Host of the Void Story told before but I say it again. The Legion is over, but the parasites claims the dark beyond. Sargeras can't stop it, what can we do against it? Void reigns.Spiticia5 1d
1d Valarjar allied race Horde Alliance if getting Kul'Thiran. Vrykul are savage and honorable. They kill their babies for being human. I can't imagine any way to spin how they would decide to work for a human king. It might change the horde composition somewhat to something other then elves.Svevid26 1d
1d Night elf paladins finally confirmed? ... From interview with BlizzardWatch... PRAISE THE MOON?!Sapherea37 1d
1d Holy undead + Sylvanas isn't a character. I have been quite expressive of my hatred for the new novel preview of the b4 the storm book by Christie lately. ... I want to clear some things up about these "lightforged forsaken". They are quite a hot topic now and I want to explain why this isn't as bad as we think. (Remember that this is just my opinion.) Let's just talk about the names that people have been calling these. - Holy undead - Lightbound forsaken - Lightforged forsaken - Holy forsaken The thing is, there is only one person that actually was ressurected like this lorewise and that person isn't a forsaken. The Forsaken are the group of undead who broke free from the control of the Lich King. So calling them forsaken makes no sense at all. I wanted to clear up that happened to Calia is basically the same as a priest or paladin ressurection. Instead of shadow and death that sustains her, it's the light. So it isn't really new information that this is possible. I really want to say that this is absolutely still awful writing and I really don't like it. I've been noticing that almost all BfA lore is retconning and changing existing lore and characters, and not for the best. I really don't like this holy undead thing, I'm just trying to make sense of it. This lore isn't as bad as lightbound orc stuff or the ruining of Sylvanas' character. (BfA lore gets a 0/10 from me so far, laughably bad.) Let's talk about Sylvanas for a second. In my opinion she should've been dead at the end of WotLK. Unfortunately blizzard knew people would go mad if they killed their rule 34 material, so they gave her a lame excuse to stay alive. She wants to suddenly live even though she always wanted to die, because hell is waiting for her since she's a !@#$%. This is where the interesting character of the banshee queen that would do everything to get vengeance on the evil Lich King changed to the character of the banshee queen that would do everything t̶o̶ ̶g̶e̶t̶ ̶v̶e̶n̶g̶e̶a̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶e̶v̶i̶l̶ ̶L̶i̶c̶h̶ ̶K̶i̶n̶g̶. Her character became more and more psycho and insane over the course of a few years. We're now at a point where she got so derailed from her original ideologies, that she doesn't even feel like a character anymore, but more like a tool and a lame excuse to keep conflict going. She killed many of her own people for almost no reason. Even Anduin, currently WoW's main lawful good character states that Sylvanas is beyond redemption. 100% of the alliance and 80% of the horde hate her because she's now nothing else but a plain boring villian. I didn't really like legion's story and writing. Suramar, Highmountain, and Azsuna were the only good zones and the others were either meh or below average. I especially didn't like everything to do with 7.3. Argus was disappointing and many things that could've been interested felt forced and not well thought out. BfA is looking like the worst expansion yet for WoW storytelling. I hope future patches will be alright and I truly hope they don't ruin Azshara in the inevitable 8.1 raid. I hope the writing will get better and I hope some things will get changed or retconned. I hope...Tinywizurd26 1d
1d Calia Menethil: A Cosmic Problem? Okay so by now it's probably safe to assume everyone has seen the leaked pages of the new book. The whole Holy Undead thing is a hard pill for me to swallow but I'm thinking of it in a way similar to the whole Jesus resurrection story like some sort of holy miracle. You get the gist. I don't like it much because it makes death magic as a concept completely stupid which leads me to my next point. The whole Cosmic Forces thing that was introduced as the main energies of the universe are shown to have its opposites maintaining a balance: Light/Void Order (Arcane)/Disorder (Fel) Life/Death So at first this whole Calia business had me face palming but then I remembered how the current trend in their story writing is to subvert these powers to not be black and white. Xe'ra showing the light as questionable to say the least and Alleria showing the void isn't inherently "evil", I think I know what they are trying to do (although its kind of a stretch.) Despite these Cosmic Forces balancing each other by each having a natural opposite, I think they are trying to split them further by showing that these individual forces posses inherent traits that weren't immediately obvious. For simplifications sake I'll use the terms good and bad. Good Light: Creation, healing, inner peace / Bad Light: Zealotry, Blind devotion Good Void: Open mindedness / Bad Void: Maddening, all-consuming, terrifying! Good Order: Civilisation, law / Bad Order: (no idea) Good Disorder: (no idea again!) / Bad Disorder: Destruction, chaos, scary demons Good Life: Harmonious nature / Bad Life: Uncontrolled growth Good Death: Holy Undead... apparently. / Bad Death: Necromancy Death as a concept is meant to be final. It works together with life to ensure that when all things die, their bodies rot away and go on to give nutrients to the ground or animals. The natural cycle is preserved by Life and Death fuelling each other. This is why I don't like the idea of Holy Undead. The only "good" death i can think of is if death were allowed to happen as it is meant to. That is why "bad" death is necromatic powers that force the soul back into its body and force the victim to be "living dead", it is literally an abomination (that doesn't mean we can't be friends but this is warcraft :D). If the Cosmic Universal Force was called Undeath well that might be a bit different and then a "good" undeath could exist like this Holy Undead... thing where you're not a shambling corpse and then the "bad" death where you are. Ofc if that were the case what kind of benefit would having a "bad" undeath have and what utter psycho would rather use that as opposed to one that seems to be better. Fortunately it's not the case and its Death however now we have a problem unless someone can provide a convincing case for it. See when I strip it down things like order and disorder are simple concepts but i can't give each respectively a bad or good definition because those concepts really are shaped by the individual's point of view. "Bad" order could be considered the absolute ordering of everything and "good" disorder could be the possibility of change, though both could be considered good or bad depending on what those things might entail. In a similar way, Life is the beginning and middle, full of possibility and in terms of nature can be viewed quite differently. The Cenarion Circle understand the balance of life so all things can flourish, whereas if you look at the Botani race on Draenor, they encourage growth to the point where there is so much life that its out of control. Death as I said however is final. The end. It doesn't have the power to bring back the dead in the same state when they were alive. Those that are brought back are still decaying or cursed spirits because all they can do is die or are trapped to haunt the land until they are released. So this is my big question, how can Calia possibly be a thing? What the hell is she? If she's not like other Undead who will eventually rot away, the only other rational alternative is she has become an Immortal which basically means they've discovered the key to immortality. I'm just assuming that's what a Holy Undead is btw because if you still rot anyway then there is literally nothing special about being resurrected in this way and then its back to being confusing. Can Light make better undead than Death, seems kind of like its moving into territory it shouldn't have dominion over. If you made it through reading all this, well done and thank you for entertaining my musings. It's probably all nonsense but meh. I want to hear what people think too to see if they can think of anything that gives sense to this. I'm still not a huge fan of this decision but oh well.Ulioth13 1d
1d More Horde Whining If you tired of whining, then skip this topic. I don't have real life and anything better to do, so I will whine here. I was thinking about maghar scenario and there are scene where gromash fight against lightforged to buy time... Ok, blizzard, you pulled "one-orc-fights-against-army-to-buy-time" trick at least three times already. You don't have any better ways to show how orcs are cool? Some that don't include dying of an orc? Blizzard said "We don't want you to feel like you choose wrong faction" or something like that. Congratulations, for me you failed this task long time ago, when made me siege my own capital. And then it was only worse. Kill my own warch... No, wait, don't kill, let him go, to kill at the begi... Wait, no, even then green Jesus kill him, not me. In draenor you showed everyone: most of the orcs are bloodthirsty savages even without fel corruption. At the begining of Legion our warchief was killed again by noname mob. Killing new warchief, that did nothing in the plot yet, already sounds like a bad writing, but you made it even worse. Why you didn't make some super powerfull named demon to kill Voljin? And then this demon would be some boss in raid or at least in dungeon... And what about Victory or Death? Why they even run? When Horde and alliance arrived at broken isles they believed that it is last stand, if they fail - azeroth is doomed. You could pull some stupid trick to save Horde. Like... I don't know... Jaina teleports to alliance flying ship to evacuate alliance soldiers, sees slaughtering of the horde and decides to teleport them out despite her hate, whatever, works for me. Blizzard, I think the best you can do is to force everyone reroll to alliance and just make horde another nonplayable evil faction. I don't even know what I am trying to say here, this is just bunch of random thoughts from my head, I like horde, even in Warcraft 3 horde was my favourite faction... And seeing this attitude to my favourite faction from its creators... It's just sad. But you know what? I am romantic. Or maybe an idiot. I still believe that in BFA they can redeem themselves. Like child believes in Santa Claus. Ok, and now more important stuff. In ICC before fight with saurfang jr. Saurfang said "Dranosh means heart of draenor in orcish". Ok, Saurfang, you talking orcish right now. Orc talking to an orc, and bunch of horde players around can understand you, so you totally talking orcish right now. And it means he actually said something similar to "His name is pineapple, it means pineapple in English". Alliance player will hear something like "zag zag Dranosh zag zag Dranosh".Jinziggor72 1d
1d Please destroy Orgrimmar and Stormwind Destroy Orgrimmar and Stormwind. Refurbish Silvermoon, and Azuremyst isle. Build a Night Elf stronhold in Farlass, and Goblin stronghold in Booty Bay. Fix the travel in the old World and use level scaling to make the whole map relevant at max level, phased for top level players. Oh... and fix the trees they look terrible now... and make a Deeprun Tram battleground. That would be awesome... I'm tired of both Orgrimmar and Stormwind.Yavan46 1d
1d What's wrong with Aliance I read new comics today and i must ask you guys why Blizzard making every single aliance character ultra stupid? Janina ask herself what if i kill Thrall and Rexxar and save my father. I think Jaina is suposed to be a smart one (consumed with hatred but smart). Quick anshwer we all die green jesus save us like 7 times. So Is intended to aliance be just dumb? I mean NPC almost all of them. Geen storming entire forsaken fleet with one airship. (Dumb). Anduin hate Horde for death of his father? For real they live in Dalaran for two years and there is no living soul who tell them dudes if Horde dont escape they die and every single one on that planet after them. I mean someone neutral like Kadghar can send a message ??? Even my beloved Tyrande. Ilidan send her one of best love messege of all times. And She reapond with "I think he's lier." So i think what Is going on here.Symph27 1d
2d Our Warchief Sylvanas Windrunner in BfA Seeing all these threads constantly keep coming for every new detail about BfA or the book Before the Storm. Thing is, I don't mind lots of threads and discussion, but this is something else. My own faction members, seems very upset over Sylvanas and her upcoming campaign. And I ask myself, why? Do you even know the story around her campaign? Her end game that was supposed to be during the Battle for Lordaeron, right after the Burning of Teldrassil. Although I love everything around the Lordaeron battle that I've so far played and seen, I cannot help but to be even more excited about the actual Teldrassil attack. I love seeing Malfurion charging head on against the Horde war-machine and he is incredibly powerful in his own right. And even though Sylvanas wasn't bound to come out on top in the fight between them at all, but by all accounts she is trying to finish him off with her shadow-woven arrows (or plagued arrows, can't be sure this time) and he puts up a real fight. But finally Saurfang comes charging through, always duty bound and comes to his Warchief's aid. But from what we know, Saurfang is getting his !@# kicked during this fight between the Alliance most powerful member and the Horde's ruthless Warchief, with Saurfang intervening at some point? Even though Saurfang is unrivaled by few when it comes to melee combat and Lady Sylvanas is quite formidable, with her inexhaustable agility on top of her mastery as a ranger, armed with her necromantic abilities and cunning makes her a very dangerous opponent aswell. Malfurion himself is in his own league. But he is still made of flesh and bone, which apparently is made very clear after Saurfang (who was as good as dead before Malfurion moments before) comes from the side when Sylvanas engages the Arch-druid and the orc delivers a deadly blow to the almost Demigod-like Malfurion. After Sylvanas instantly begins to move towards Darnassus, she orders Saurfang to finish Malfurion off. That is a big part of her plan aswell. But for reasons unknown, Saurfang spares his life before Tyrande shows up and Sylvanas is long gone. My point was only that don't whine Horde players! Not if you don't know for sure her reasons behind her aggressive campaign against the Alliance and the slaughtering of the Night Elven civilians, which results in the Burning of Teldrassil eventually.Ernst95 2d
2d New Jaina comic! Thoughts?Tinywizurd58 2d
2d A plea to Blizzard I know I've been extremely critical on all of my posts so far but I believe it's been necessary, considering the debacle that is the current state of WoW (story-wise). So I've come up with a few areas that could use improvement, if you (Blizzard) would be so kind as to listen. 1. Stop making factions character villains. Having Garrosh as a villain was weird to begin with, but now all this racist and xenophobic actions that we're seeing the Horde do. Please stop it. 2. If you are hell-bent on making a faction leader go the "koo-koo" route, then make an equivalent for the other faction. If Sylvanas goes all hitlery on us and we have to put her down like the rabid dog that she is, then, at least, make Genn go all crazy too and have us use his scraped-off fur to make a legendary back or smth. 3. Equivalence - which is closely tied to #2. If one faction gets a story progression, give the same treatment to the other. Don't be like "we will develop the heck out of the Nightborn and have them join the Horde, but we will give a short story about the void and have Void Elves join the Alliance because why not?" NO! We want to have a fair treatment and logical decisions. 4. Speaking of logical decisions, PLEASE stick to the original lore and stop retconning things just because they don't fit into your intern's neat and clean notepad-written story. A true writer's skill lies not with making up new story over and over again, but managing to intricately and successfully integrate his new story into the already existing old one. 5. If you're not able to accomplish #4 with the current Staff, then please hire some professional writers to do it for you. You can even increase the monthly sub price by 1 $ to compensate for the newcommers, nobody would mind that much. Spending more money into making a better, more coherent and more interesting story will, in NO WAY, negatively influence the company. It will, shockingly, actually improve it. If at least some of the above-mentioned points are able to be worked upon, then it is my belief that the game would improve tremendously.Anthropea19 2d
2d Something odd... I am surprised that, it didn't strike me before. It is possible that someone already touched upon it but I was curious. In the Broken Shore scenario and scinematic, both Varian say "no ... SHE wouldn't" and Genn says "I knew we couldn't trust HER" obviously talking about Sylvanas, which is odd to say the least as the Warchief then and present at the Broken shore is Vol'jin ? So why are both of them referring to being betrayed by her, when Vol'jin, the Warchief of the Horde was present there and still in charge. The Alliance had no idea what happened to him, and even if they did it would not have been her call to withdraw all the Horde forces? Any thoughts or reasons that I might have missed?Medaan9 2d
2d All time low? Hello all, I have a question for you guys. What do you all think was/is the all time lowest point for the warcraft story? Did the 180 character turns ruin the game in BC? Did green jesus make you cringe in cata? Did WoD's time travel make your head hurt? Did/does your faction get ruined in MoP/BfA? In my opinion were currently at our lowest with the stuff we've seen so far. But judging by recent datamined text, it is getting better. What do you all think?Tinywizurd23 2d
2d [Spoiler] Today's sacrifice for human potential Today on the menu of character butchery we have : So what happened to Rexxar that he went from: "He was a fine warrior remember him as such" to Psycho I kill humans cause I mad orc "Garrosh was my mentor mentality" evil grin Satan incarnate?Dudas124 2d
2d More blood elves in the stories Forty percent of horde 110's are blood elves and they are less represented in game lore then Mag'Har orcs and Tauren. Yea I get most of the people got killed fighting Arthas, but there are orphans and new kids. We should get more Blood elf presance in Horde leaderhip. What happened to Prince Nallorath? What happened to Eldin Sunstrider? As many belf players as we have we should have more notable leaders and characters representing the race.Svevid29 2d
2d Yrel's actions in BFA are good for the Alliance Okay, okay, I know. Some Alliance players will really dislike what i'll try to do, and some Horde players will agree. That's a good thing. So, here I'll try to demonstrate, in three parties, why Yrel's actions in the Mag'har scenario are good for the Alliance and why they could make sense. And to do that, I must first explain why her Lightbound aren't like the Scarlet Crusade or even the Iron Horde. Please note that all players are welcome to participate in this thread, for even if we only have the Horde's side of the story, it's always good to discuss it with the mainly Horde players. 1. The Lightbounds aren't evil It's something I read a lot, that Yrel and the Draeneï's actions would be akin to the Scarlet Crusade's (SC later in the text) or the Iron Horde. But I think it's wrong, and I can prove it. While the two groups wield the Light aggressively, there is a core difference between them. The SC is paranoid and deeply xenophobic, to the point that it is impossible to even talk to them outside of very rare occasions in Vanilla. For them, all those who aren't a part of the SC are Undeads or on their way to becoming Undeads and thus must be killed on sight. As for the Iron Horde, we saw from the beginning of WoD that it was a force devoted to crushing all the other civilizations of Draenor and, in the case of the Draeneï, even kill them all. I still have to do the WoD's Horde side but in the Alliance one, I had a distinct feeling that while some Draeneï were enslaved by the Iron Horde, it was only to be worked to death, there never was even an intent to create a cast of slave or something like that. Now, let us look at the Lightbounds. It's obvious that they aren't like the SC since they want to convert others, not kill them. They even accept willing converts, which imply that their stance isn't to kill on sight. And compared to the Iron Horde, again, they are shown willing to spare as many lives as possible, considering the warcries of the Lightbounds in the scenario : even when attacking the Mag'har, they are offering them the possibility to convert to the Light willingly. In my book, it makes them a lot less evil than the IH or the SC ever were. But we need to find a plausible reason for them even existing, and I think it's possible to theorycraft it. 2. A possible history of the Lightbounds I think that we can start with the Shadowmoon Exiles. Their chieftess, Rulkan, spent the whole Draenor Campaign alongside the Alliance Commander, so it is probable that she encountered and talked with Light users. Being depicted as wise, Rulkan probably took at least an interest in it, if only for the knowledge it brought her and her Clan. And once Ner'Zhul had been killed, she probably gathered the remnants of the Shadowmoons to reforge her Clan. Living in the heartland of Draeneï territories, this Clan probably quickly saw converts to the Light and the Draeneï's way of life, especially after the catastrophic events of the Dark Star and all. It may have given them access to the Draeneï technology and knowledge, making their life a whole lot easier. And the other Clans probably learn it. Those of them living alongside the Draeneï or near their borders probably saw some of their members converting to the Light and reaping the benefits, during the 30 years of peace. It probably created a lot of tensions inside and between the two species : radicals in each would have called for either the end of the conversions or to the contrary to the launching of wide missionary missions to fully bring the Orcs into the Light. The turning point was probably the conversion of Grom's son. The son of the Warchief, the leader of the Clans, forsaking his heritage to turn to the Light was probably seen as a terrible betrayal by the orcs traditionalists and like a miracle to the Draeneï and their converts. What was by then simmering resentment probably begun to become really visible. Then, an accident occured. It could have concerned the Orcs and Draeneï, or it could have come from the Arakkoa. I suspect that the later would works better to add a "grey" morality to all of this, because the Orcs wouldn't necessarily know about it, and would just notice the change in the Draeneï's behavior. Perhaps some Void-worshipers from Arak tried to summon an Old God or some terrible act of Void Magic, forcing the Naaru and the Draeneï to act, for instance, and igniting the "need" to prevent such danger in the future, at all cost. In any case, the war would start in earnest and would lead to the Mag'har scenario. 3. Why Yrel's actions are good for the Alliance ? Because she can be our Sylvanas. Yes, as simple as that. Like Sylvanas, Yrel can be proactive, forcing the other side to react to her actions. Like Sylvanas, her methods may be dubious, but they end strengthening her faction. Like Sylvanas, she can drive a story. And that's why, just like Sylvanas as been loved and shielded from a lot of criticism by the Horde players who like her, so should Yrel be treated by the Alliance. She is offering our faction an almost unique opportunity, to be active and not reactive, since the latter has been the main source of unhappiness in the Alliance since way back in Cataclysm. Having Yrel officially join the Alliance to form a kind of "pole" around Genn and Jaina would offer us a pool of opportunities to have stories where the Horde has to react to our actions, something which, if the faction war has to exist in the future, needs to happen. The Horde can't always be the aggressor. And if the Alliance needs some arguments to defend Yrel, just think of Lightforging : if the Lightbonding is close to it, the Orcs may be gaining immortality or at least longer lives, would be purged of their darker aspect and would learn to become more balanced individuals. And we haven't seen how the Lightbounds live. They could have kept almost all their traditions save the more violent and "pagan" ones, for all we know. Plus, this kind of actions is befitting of the "civilized" faction : civilizations which believes that they are superior to others always try to change their neighbors. And the great ones, like the Roman Empire of old end being changed and reshaped when they incorporate those new populations. Now, obviously, it's not so good from the other side, but it's the perfect material for compelling conflict between the Horde and the Alliance, IMHO.Eraten43 2d
2d The war will break Anduin Controversial topic title out of the way, I believe that the reason we're seeing so much of the horde being presented as villainous antagonists is because Anduin is going to take a dark turn from this war. With the revelations from the BTS novel and the mag'har recruitment scenario, I believe he will decide that the only way to achieve peace is by turning the horde into lightbound. This is why Blizzard has been talking about both factions needing to worry about turning evil, they're starting off with the horde as the bad ones and then later on will have the alliance take a turn. I also believe that Yrel and the AU draenei will find their way to azeroth and join Anduin in this cause and that seeing the horde become brainwashed and mind controlled will trigger a redemption story for Sylvanas as well as her reuniting with Alleria (who obviously doesn't trust the light). Thoughts?Varulek26 2d
2d A fundamental problem with the Game Last night, as I lay in my bed with a fever and a nose running like the amazon river, I had an epiphany. I believe I found the exact point, at which this game began going downhill. But let's back-track a bit. Vanilla and TBC - the two most beloved times in WoW history (according to the majority of the player base). What was so special about them? The graphics were pretty good for their time, but if we compare them to today's standards, they are plain and bland. Game mechanics were also pretty simplistic - no intricate boss mechanics, no special encounters, no scenarios, no phasings, etc. Trailers were also pretty average, anyone with any skill in video-editing could make a trailer like the ones Blizzard had back in the day. So what was it that made Vanilla and TBC so beloved? It were the characters - or rather, the lack of involvement on their part. And this is where the main part of this thread comes in. In vanilla and TBC, the ones doing the action, the ones deciding the fate of the world of warcraft were ultimately us - the players. We banished Ragnaros, not the alliance or horde leaders. We defeated C'thun, not anyone else. We foiled Kil'jaeden's plans to enter Azeroth. It was us. And that gave us a sense of accomplishment, a sense of value and it made us proud to be the ones to say "We did it!" Then came Wrath of the Lich King and the game took a drastic turn towards the narrative-aspect of the game, as we - the players, took a backstage role, in favor of Racial leaders and other lore characters. We see this in the fabulously-executed Wrathgate scenario, we see this with the Ulduar trailer, we see this at the Fall of the Lich King. At the end, it was us who brought him down, but it was Tirion who remained in the spotlight and took the story further with Bolvar. Albeit a ultimately successful expansion, WoTLK was the turning-point in Blizzard's idea regarding story development and player-involvement. And this aspect is abundantly obvious with the Cataclysm. In Cataclysm, we see Thrall taking a leading role in "saving Azeroth". Although it was us who had to battle through hell and back to bring down Deathwing, it was Thrall who ultimately struck the killing blow. This trend of racial leaders saving the day goes on to the following expansions hensforward. In Mists of Pandaria, we begin to see less and less player-involvement. Garros is the main character of the story - not us. Even though we fight him at the end of the expansion, it is ultimately the racial leaders of both factions that decide his fate - not us. We do NOT have a say in the matter. In Warlords of Draenor, in every single trailer, the main focus is on the racial leaders, Khadgar leading the forces, Thrall fighting Garrosh (even though it was us who softened him up beforehand), Gul'dan and Grom having a squabble, and ultimately the leaders save the day. Legion, although also a rather successful expansion (not saying much, considering the past 3 expansions, though), had it's main focus, more so than any other expansion, on the main characters - not us. We had Illidan brought back to life, we had Velen take an active role, we had the return of Alleria and Tyralion and so on. To summarize: we, the players, have taken a backseat to the action, in favor of the lore characters. We are no longer Blizzard's main focus. And, if Battle for Azeroth is any indicator of things to come, we can expect even less player-involvement in future expansions. This, ladies and gentlemen, is my personal, humble opinion. Feel free to disagree!Anthropea27 2d
2d Mission table lore in BfA. (spoilers) Directly taken from the article: "From the datamined missions, it seems that the two largest theaters of war are Lordaeron and Northern Kalimdor. With the Alliance in control of Tirisfal, Gilneas, and the Plaguelands, the Forsaken are fortifying their positions in Silverpine and Hillsbrad from the Alliance’s encroaching armies. Horde forces fleeing from Tirisfal are rebuilding the Ruins of Alterac, Strahnbrad, and Durnholde Keep as new Horde strongholds. Fenris Isle is in a constant tug of war between the Forsaken and the worgen. The Horde has claimed Shadowfang Keep, where the Royal Apothecary Society is working on a new plague to blight Gilneas with, but the 7th Legion already has Shadowfang surrounded. Alliance paladins have captured Southshore and are attempting to purify the blight, while the Forsaken have enslaved the dwarf spirits at Dun Garok." "Meanwhile in Kalimdor, the night elves are waging a guerrilla war against the orcs in Ashenvale and Durotar, with the remnants of their army preparing for an assault on Orgrimmar itself. At Ashenvale, the Horde marches on Astranaar while the night elves’ dryad allies have destroyed the Warsong’s logging equipment. Darkshore is a zone-wide battlefield, with the Horde controlling the southern and northern parts of the zone and the Alliance controlling the center. The night elves are using Lor’danel as a port to send refugees from Teldrassil to Azureymst Isle, which the Horde are planning to launch an assault on from the Zoram’gar Docks. Bael Modan has become the site of a battle between the tauren and the dwarves, who are preparing to invade Mulgore. A large Alliance army has attacked the Crossroads, and the Steamwheedle Cartel has pushed their neutrality to the limit by secretly aiding the Horde against the Alliance. Both factions are sending scouts to the ruins of Theramore, with plans to build a new base there." "The Wailing Caverns have become filled with Azerite, which is making the deviate creatures inside act even stranger than normal; while something has been discovered in Blackfathom Deeps." There's a lot of interesting stuff to learn and collect from this. It's great to have this feeling that the world is alive and in action which was missing from previous expansions, especially legion. Some interesting things: - Dryads aren't really neutral anymore, they ally with the night elves and the alliance. - Goblins were mostly neutral before, but in BfA they're secretly siding with the horde. - Tauren and Dwarves are fighting eachother and dwarves want to invade Mulgore. - Night elves want to invade Orgrimmar. - The forsaken are developing a new plague in Shadowfang Keep. - The forsaken are enslaving dwarven spirits. - Both factions want to build a new base in the ruins of Theramore.Tinywizurd103 2d
2d Horde story and the Forsaken SPOILERS Hi, Some time ago I asked Alliance players about how they viewed their lore and story. And now I would like Horde players to pronounce themselves regarding theirs. Specially Forsaken players. With all the datamined info, and the novel excerpts, how do you feel about their narrative? Would you rather stick with the initial premises of their race, and vouch for the approach Sylvanas has? Or get rid of said old values and embrace a more Alliance-friendly approach like the ones shown in the excerpts?. Rather stick with the RAS, the moral shadyness, experimentation and stick with old-school characters like Sylvanas, or get rid of all that and turn into the kind of Lightforged undead people Calia became, with a more righteous moral compass, and friendly approach regarding the Alliance? To trade morally-questionable-but-pragmatic characters such as Nathanos and Sylvanas, for morally impeccable or relatable guys like Calia and Faol. To trade shadowy and scheming plots, with sanctimonious and enlightened stories about redemption. Would you like that sort of change or rather have blizzard stick to the initial concept? There are pros and cons with each concept, but I’m curious about what does the general populace in these forums think about said matter. Hoping this gives us some civic responses and and enlightenment regarding how the playerbase feels about current events regarding their story.Zarao50 2d
2d My Immersion Dream The biggest problem I have with Legion (which I have thoroughly enjoyed otherwise) has been immersion. The way our characters, wielders of immensely powerful weapons and heads of military and para-military organizations pranced around with maybe ONE bodyguard around the Broken Isles with barely any support constantly made me ask myself "Why am I here?" and "Why is me dying and the Ashbringer being lost not an immense issue for the Silver Hand?". This in turn got me thinking. I've been a great fan of war novels and films, and what I persistently notice is that they are less about the individuals, and more about the battalions/regiments, like the 101st Airborne or the Cottonballers. Now, this being the World of WARcraft, I would have loved to see something similar. Have our story be about a regiment, a chapterhouse, a branch of the SI:7 or something equivalent. I've always seen Warcraft classes as less what abilities a character has and more of what his social role is, so I could envision something like this: For example, hunters and warriors could have been a part of a, let's say, Elwynn Regiment, or Wesfall Brigade, or Lakeshire...something. Have them climb through the ranks, but always under some more important tangible lore figure. Put paladins in a specific Silver Hand chapterhouse and let them work their way up to a knight-commander title. And always have those smaller structures move around from area to area, helping other regiments and branches of the Alliance. Have the Elwynn Brigade work its way through Lakeshire and Duskwood and Stranglethorn into Outland. And then have them redeployed to Northrend. And so forth. Since the MMO structure typically involves players taking orders, have that make sense. Get rogues into the SI:7 and have them work up to being Shaw's right hand. Let the player feel like his character is part of the world by having him create an intimate rapport with these smaller social sub-structures. And sprinkle a few more class-specific quests along the way. Whenever the Knights of the Silver Hand move to a new area, have them establish a small base there. And have whoever's the commander send the player to help out the resident factions, for example. Now I know that writing the game and designing the quests around this structure would have taken a massive amount of resources, and would have more than likely meant very little pay-off, since the majority of players wouldn't have cared for these finer details and just blazed through to the end content. But hey, every player's allowed a pipe dream, right?Aydras0 2d
3d (Spoilers) Before the Storm. Equality between genders? First, I speak entirely of the Warcraft universe, not our own - in case the title wasn't clear. I don't want to start up anything political here - I'm really just curious about the Warcraft universe situation. From what I've seen in the Warcraft Universe, eversince the old warcraft days, everything has been rather equal between the two genders. I could be wrong but I've always seen that as a thing - women and men are capable of doing the same thing and have the same rights. That being said, I saw this little bit. SPOILER WARNING for "Before the Storm". Mostly focusing on the last part. "In fact, until Vol'jin, all warchiefs had been orcs. And until Sylvanas, they all had been members of the original founding races. And male. Sylvanas had changed all that, and she was proud of it." I just don't see why it had to be brought up that all the previous warchiefs were MALE. And the fact it had to be pointed out "And male." in such a way. It just annoys me that such a stupid, meaningless thing has to be brought up in a game universe where, unless I'm wrong, there is equality and genders shouldn't be brought up in such ways. And while I know that the "... and she was proud of it." was supposed to point out all of that... the fact it stood "And male." before that last sentence, just makes it feel like they're hammering that in a bit extra. So, am I wrong? Could someone show me where in the lore where women are less accepted than men?Turidas105 3d
3d Vanessa Vancleef is a Marxist I've come to a realization when I replayed the Westfall Storyline on an alt recently. Now first an explanation of the setting. Regarding the situation in Westfall, the War Campaign in Northrend resulted in many Stormwind townsfolk becoming hungry and homeless, and they started to pillage the Westfall farms. Vanessa VanCleef, daughter of infamous Edwin Vancleef, helps them. She tries to give them shelter, she gives them cauldrons of food. She has been waiting a long time for the King of Stormwind to aid them but nothing happens. Then she takes tries to take command of the people to unite them "FOR THEIR GOOD". Revenge comes not as her own personal vendetta, but rather as a counteract to the events happening in Westfall. She is pissed why people are not taken care of, unhelped and unsheltered. Vanessa is a textbook Marxist. The most obvious reference to Marxism is found in the Murloc clue, when we first arrive in Westfall. "... nothing to lose but our chains". This line is almost identical to the last line of the communist Manifesto: "The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains". She quite clearly views the King of Stormwind as part of the bourgeoisie, the ruling class, who doesn't have a care in the world for the foundation of society, the working class/proletariat.Roguesej3 3d
3d Highmountain Warlocks One word: FeltotemMoggma17 3d
3d [Spoilers]: The new Horde problem. Seeing all the leaks and excerpts from the upcoming Novel ''Before the Storm'' has left me wondering about of the few plotpoints in BFA. Seeing all the things the Horde seem to be willing to do to claim an edge has not really suprised me. I believe it to be the natural course of action for a Forsaken warchief like Sylvanas to not care so much about morals or ethics. But her willingness to do everything does lead to some other interesting points. 1: The Calia question. While the excerpts are far from the entire book her role in the novel is explained clearly enough. She convinces some Forsaken to try and join their living families among the Alliance. This itself is not necessarily wrong or out of character but seeing later speculation that she'd turn into some kind of Lightforged undead it did raise a certain curiosity in me. If in theory, this lightforged Calia is portrayed as someone who could lead the Forsaken, my question is why would anyone follow her? The Tale of the Forsaken is a long one filled with gruelling crimes committed by her brother Arthas, and while she's obviously not responsible for those crimes she has also not gone through any process to prove her intentions are pure. From what we've seen she just kinda shows up and people flock to her. Comparing this to Sylvanas' storyline of liberating the scattered and downtrodden undead in the plaguelands and leading them to their vengeance and beyond makes me feel that Calia Menethil has not earned a scrap of loyalty but is handed it because the plot demands it. Perhaps some more explanation into what Calia's actually already done to earn that kind of chance would help alleviate this but I think from what we've seen right now it's something that's designed to put the pure and good character up against the icky and mean Sylvanas. But I'm eager enough to see what you think.Jorríck37 3d
4d Warchief Vol'jin Hi. So things aren't really good for the Horde. At least I don't think so personally. It's so bad that I actually kind of got emotional when I saw this video: Now, I know that it was probably the channel that decided to give Vol'jin the title Warchief. But please Blizzard, please give Vol'jin's NPC the title Warchief in game when the final product comes out. I mean, he was Warchief when he died. It would be such a simple thing to do, and it would mean a lot to me. Maybe it would mean a lot for some other Hordies as well. It wouldn't even change the story you're telling! So please Blizzard. Please do this. I'm begging you.Moggma17 4d
4d Light forge elves So before people start I'm not on about adding a new race. This is about blood elves and the new eye colour option of golden eyes. So as I know the sun well was refprge with the light of a naru and became a power source of holy energy which has slowly been gifting the blood elves and the land new life. So would this be the start of light forge blood elves?Vorren2 4d
5d If you could rewrite the lore... What would you do? First off, I want to say, I did post these things before, but want to start over with a clean thread, as the first had a few small issues. Either way, the following is what I'd do, and I want to know how much you agree or disagree with it: Vanilla/Classic: I haven't played much back in the day, I do not know if there were any large mistakes made here, feel free to share though, that goes for all parts of this post. The Burning Crusade: -Draenei looks like broken as seen on Argus, broken look like Lost Ones, Lost Ones retconned. Eredar look like current Draenei/Eredar due demonic mutation -Illidan going evil for no reason at all, attacking Shattrath even though he's an enemy of the Legion. How should this have been? Illidan did not attack Shattrath, rather, it was Kael'thas' forces that did it, disguised as Stormrage's Illidari. Why? Kil'jaeden would've ordered KT to do so, a punishment to Illidan for his failure to slay Arthas. -Blood Knight redemption, before the Sunwell, Blood Knights were a lot different, they used to enslave a Naaru and drain its power, with this -commanding- the Light, they did not feel like Paladins at all, in matter of fact, the quest that you needed to do to get your epic mount involved burning down one of the Silver Hand's most sacred places. This is something that seperated them from Alliance paladins, something that made them feel more Horde-like. What should've happened is that they didn't lose their captive naaru, or captured another one, therefore keeping their ability so syphon one even after the Sunwell. The Sunwell also should've been destroyed, Imagine Kil'jaeden putting up one final act of revenge beforebeing sent back to Argus at his defeat in the Sunwell, he would cast a spell that would collapse the Sunwell entirely, permanently destroying it. Alternatively, have Kael'thas steal the naaru but we later find another naaru, oddly named Xe'ra, near the black temple, which we use instead. Either way, Kael'thas should not have been the first to act against Silvermoon, but would've rahter indirectly angered them, causing them to be his enemies without it feeling like a randm betrayal. Wrath of the Lich King: The Lich King, an underestimating fool, throughout the expansion we are made to believe that Arthas is a very good tactician, so why is it then, after every time we thwart him, he lets us go, several times throughout leveling he has come personally face-to-face with us, and let us live, one may try to argue that this was to make us more powerful before making us his minions, but it was made clear that the Scourge was already powerful enough to wipe us out, and that he was "holding back", this completely counters that entire post, he doesn't need us, so why should he test us?! Instead he shouldn't've come face-to-face with us before the final confrontation near his throne. -Argent Tournament, why? Why in Icecrown?! There are a few things about this Argent Tournament that annoy me, first of all, why is it hosted in Icecrown? Why would you hold your training ground in the middle of the enemy stronghold?! The original idea was to hold it in Crystalsong Forest, hence the two useless camps in the zone, and this would've made more sense, it would be kept a fair distance away from the scourge's main forces, and under the direct protection of Dalaran, floating just above. Another issue within the Tournament is... it's more of a colliseum, an arena, the Tournament's goal was to prepare for an attack upon Icecrown Citadel.. So why, then, do we try to KILL OUR COMPETITORS?! While I do understand that some trainees would die in this, as they may put us to fight against monsters, as only that would properly train us to face some of the Scourge's minions, we should definately not kill eachother when it comes to Horde vs Alliance on this, instead, their hatred for eachother would be resolved in non-lethal combat, we do not have the resources to lose anyone in this grand war against the Scourge. -There must always be A Lich King": Total, Bullcrap. This is only an excuse to bring something that could've been used in the future, while forgetting Kel'thuzad is still not permanently dead. Bolvar should've been dead-dead, and no new Lich King should've been made. Mord'rethar could've been closed down to keep the scourge at bay, or it could've been explained that, while the Scourge's numbers are still countless, without a leader, they are weak and unorganized, unable to put up a serious threat again. Cataclysm: -Cairne Vs. Garrosh: Now, this is allright, but I do wish that the intent of cairne was a non-lethal mak'gora, he'd still die because of magatha's poison ofcourse, but this would make the entire shock value of his death even bigger. -Nordrassil's End: I'll explain this later on, but have Ragnaros succeed in burning down Nordrassil... Now this here is an iffy one, it's not really a mistake Blizzard made, but I'm curious if this idea would work: -Druids of the Flame: Malfurion Corrupted: What if through some way, the druids of the flame managed to corrupt Malfurion, rather than Fandral, what if we had to kill Malfurion in the Firelands, perhaps this could add a bigger involvement of the priesthood of elune into this storyline, a bit of progression for Tyrande's story. If this were indeed to pass, Hamuul would also become the leader of the Cenarion Circle. Again, I am unsure if this could work, this is only a random though I had, anyways, back to more pressing issues. -Thrall, the "Earth-warder", okay, first problem of Dragon Soul.. Thrall is a mortal, and should not be able to control the Dragon Soul at all, he should not be involved with this at all, thats about it. -The "Age of Mortals": You know what makes even less sense than a mortal controlling such a powerful artifact? Dragons losing their power over Neltharion's defeat. First of all, why should dragons lose their power over completing their "destiny"? If you ask me, that's a compelling argument to not follow your destiny. Secondly: Deathwing was not the real evil, sure he was corrupted and evil, but it was caused by the Old Gods, if anything, ending the Old Gods would be the real "destiny" of the dragonflights, not slaying one of their own.. which by the way wouldn't be a major issue if he wasn't blessed in the first place. Mists of Pandaria: -Om nom nom, the language of the Pandaren; Okay blizzard, very funny.. or not, I know you tried to joke here, but I'd prefer it if Pandaren had a more asian sounding language if you're not a pandaren, rather than the "nom nom" they put out now, hell, the Ballad of Liu Lang had actual Pandaren language in it, which was great! While on subject, you made another mistake on Pandaren language... by calling it "Pandaren" the pandaren don't use that language anymore, not since the Mogu Dynasty, Pandaren language was lost to the ages as the Pandaria races were not allowed to speak any language but Mogu, to prevent any secret planning under the noses of the Empire., so, the language should be called "Mogu" instead. -Pandaren, the optimistic peace-lovers: I don't know why you chose to do this, but you made pandaren this... always smiling, super optimistic race of carebears, to which I must say: "NO!", you gave a good example with how most pandaren should be with the Shado-pan, with honor and control within them, they know the dangers of Pandaria, and are very strict and disciplined in their nature, you would see that they may have the most discipline among their younger, less of that "playing all the time" and more of learning of their values and virtues. -I also wish you gave us more Shao-dins, or clans, aside from the Shado-pan, I would like to see a few ancient pandaren clans in Pandaria, among them the ancient Huojin and Tushui, which would be rivals on Pandaria, rahter than the allies they were on the turtle, Imagine a backstory about them, that they were once allies in the times of Liu Lang, but in time, their on Pandaria living Shao-dins would start parting ways as their opposing views started brewing trouble, Imagine if there was a tale that they worked together in ancient times, the Huojin would defend their settlements from average attacks, while the Tushui meditated and planned to defend these settlements from larger scale attacks in the meantime, these clans, once working in pendulum, now bitter enemies. -Pandaren Appearance, another thing I dislike about pandaren is their appearance, their ingame models simply look... silly, overweight, what I would want is something more along the lines of Samwise's art, specifically the "Pandyr" as seen in the following links: These pandaren look a lot less cuddly, and much more fitting within the Warcraft franchise, here are a few normal pandaren made by Samwise: Again, much more fitting for Warcraft. Secondly, their weapons, as seen while leveling in pandaria look... outright silly, as does some of their armor, but especially their weapons, it looks like parts of the weapons were made with play-doh, all colorful and useless spirals in their base.. why? Why couldn't we have some more asian-styled weapons, mogu had some pretty good looking weapons. -Garrosh's Corruption and descent to Madness: Oh boy, this is a big one.. Before I'll go on, yes, it made sense, but, why, why did you do this? This is perhaps the biggest loss of potential you caused in lore to this date.. Garrosh.. he could've been so much more than this.. Yes, he was reckless and aggressive, but in Cata, we saw progression within him, especially in Stonetalon Mountains, we saw that he was learning, slowly perhaps, but still, learning how to lead his people, he was changing, he learned a lot about honor and respect, and MERCY, we saw him shape up to in the future perhaps be the best Warchief the Horde has ever had... But you ruined it, you took him and shaped him into an evil psychopath because of the Sha... Who would I choose to become an enemy instead? this might be the most controversial of all my points here but... Sylvanas... Why Sylvanas? Well, her main goal was to kill the Lich King, and that she did, the only reason she accepted ressurection after her suicide was because she came to be in the same afterlife as Arthas, but she is slipping into madness, we can see she's not herself anymore, and simply does anything not to join arthas, even if it means becoming just like him, as seen in Silverpine Forest. This would be the best time to end her story, remember, you can die a hero or become a monster, and that's the case with her story aswell, end her before her story grows bad. I even thought of a few encounters we could see in this... Siege of Undercity raid.. Kor'kron Vanguard: The Kor'kron that were to keep a watch over the Undercity since the Wrathgate, turned into undead by Sylvanas, a few mobs outside and an ad-based boss in the courtyard, they serve as "cannon fodder" to the forsaken. Nathanos Blightcaller: A patrol roaming around the outer circle of Undercity, perhaps he has a pet which needs to be dealt with? Mantid Apothecaries: Apothercary quarter, the forsaken and mantid work together to combine their posions and blight to make a successor over the blight used at the Wrathgate, we must put a stop to this. Koltira Deathweaver: Sylvanas' Throne Room: Koltira has been tortured and reshaped to be a weapon of the Forsaken, this is where Thassarian could take part of the story, helping us put an end to his corrupted friend. Once Koltira is dead, the plateau Sylvanas usually stood on lowers, it becomes an elevator, which goes down.. waaaaay down, as we take the elevator down we can hear the sound of chains and a loud heartbeat getting louder and louder, clutter in the rooms ahead will move in tandem as the heart beats, we face the Klaxxi Champions as one of the encounters down there, the second final boss would be the Val'kyr, the remaining Val'kyr with the most power, we kill all of them of them but one, Aradne, Aradne would at the end of the fight flee, not to be seen for some time. Finally, Sylvanas herself, we would see she had discovered whatever laid under Tirisfal (Whether it is the minion or not) and absorb its power along with the power of the heart of Y'shaarj, We would face against the combination of Legion and Old God minions, an undead with the power of the god's heart, and slay her there. With the (permanent) death of Sylvanas, a new Forsaken leader needs to rise, for this, changes need to be made, and more lore added to this character, but I would pick Lillian Voss.. now, some of you might have a few problems with this but let me explain. Voss has a hatred for the undead, this is true, but perhaps that is exactly why she would make for a fitting leader to lead the Forsaken to a... somewhat brigher future, stepping away from the blight forever, and going back to stealing minons of the Scourge, rather than raising their own, the Forsaken would once more step away from their evil roots and try to aid the horde and their own with some dignity.. Perhaps Voss would at first decline, but somehow forced into this position, or persuaded, to know that the undead would only become more of a problem if she would not step in. The Alliance-Horde war continues, or at least skirmishes do, there will be no peace, only local ceasefires in areas of greater danger, as it always has been. Walords of Draenor: Now, onto this... how would I do this, without needing Garrosh... As the Horde and Alliance continue their war/skirmishes against eachother, wrathion and Kairoz would come to the same conclusion as we have now, the current forces of Azeroth cannot defeat the oncoming attack of the Legion/old gods, and decide to go to AU draenor, not because Garrosh could be used here, but instead because the Orcs have been shown to be a threat before, they would enter Draenor through Faralohn and form the Iron Horde, not through the Warsong, but through the Dragonmaw, as dragons, perhaps to be revered by this clan. We would indeed chase after them, but this time less foolish, the Dark Portal is much too fortified for us to assault, it is the very Stronghold of the Iron Horde, and assaulting there would be suicide. Instead, we get the Bronze Dragonflight to aid us, using the time-dimension rift in Faralohn to enter Draenor, just as the assault on tanaan, we would have a short scenario in Faralohn, escaping from the Iron Horde forces there, and going to Frostfire/Shadowmoon Side note on SMV, it would not be a zone of permanent night, it makes no sense that the sun never comes up there but it does in other zones.. it is simply named after the clan, and Gorgrond is a full barren rock-wasteland, where Faralohn takes the Botani part. Anyways, we get to our respective zones and make Bladespire Citadel and Karabor our homes, these would serve as the capital cities, screw Ashran. Now here is where some fun comes in, every clan has parts of them with, and against the Iron Horde, this may help the Horde expand in their orc subrace diversity. But now, for the enemy chieftains, not nessecarily Iron Horde: Grommash Ner'zhul Gul'dan Kargath Dragonmaw Warlord and.... Durotan. The Dragonmaw Warlord, Kargath, Grommash and Durotan being part of the Iron Horde, seeing honor in this unity, being convinced by Kairoz and Wrathion that this is for the good of all, Thrall and Garrosh would both have a tough time here, facing their fathers as enemies, Garrosh in the end winning, however, Thrall, would be slain, and Nobundo takes the leadership of the Earthen Ring. As we continue our fight against the Iron Horde, we would fight through the entirety of draenor on the first patch, including Faralohn and Tanaan, Tanaan serving as the level 100 zone, where we face the bulk of the Iron Horde, and -CAPTURE-, not destroy, the Dark Portal, it is after all, our only way home, Khadgar could open a portal to our azeroth using the time rip in Faralohn, otherwise having no leyline connection to our home aside from the Dark Portal, but even that for a mere few seconds, in other words, not enough to gather reinforcements or anything. As we capture the Dark Portal, the Shadow council manages to free Gul'dan and his allies, it would not be us to free him, that's stupid, why not kill him right there, after all, he was defenseless! Rather than Blackrock Foundry as one of the raids, as Blackhand would side with us, being among the Warlords to listen to Kilrogg, whose vision foresaw the Iron Horde's failure would they face the Burning Legion/old gods (Also yes, Kilrogg would be the main cause for the AU orcs to side with us), we would have the Dragonmaw Stronghold in Shadowmoon Valley, based on the southern Island, among the bosses in that raid, we could face Kairozdormu, perhaps the final boss of that instance. -Cho'gall would not be a part of Highmaul, instead, he would be involved in two major patches. -We would not kill Rukhmar, as the adherents were FALSE followers, Rukhmar was not an enemy, instead, perhaps that fungal whale boss could've been a thing. 6.1: The Heart of Nature: With Gul'dan escaped, we need a new power source for the portal to function, for this, we travel to Faralohn, and face the Botani, we slay their leader in a short.. 3-boss raid, and use the heart of this botani leader to power the gateway once more. 6.2: Legacy of the Apexis: Cho'gall has escaped, and made his way to an island west of the Spires of Arak Which is where he uncovers a lost city, and raises it once more, this city would be the temple of the Apexis civilization, a "temple in the sky" as described in an arakkoan archaeology item: Apexis Scroll: This battered scroll case has corroded shut, and the scroll within is barely readable with very careful examination. These appear to be plans and measurements for a glorious "Temple in the Sky," written in an ancient hand. It's unclear whether such a splendid structure was ever built. This "Temple" would serve as the 5man dungeon of this patch, in it we would end up facing Sethe as the final boss, putting an end to him once and for all. 6.3: The Return of the Empire: Cho'gall, however, escapes, and makes his way to the Gorian Empire, where we would chase him once more, and this time, we do not let him escape, a raid would be involved in this patch, bosses of this raid include Cho'gall and Ner'zhul, and a few other servants of the old god inhabiting Draenor, we stop the summoning of the old god. 6.4: Hellfire Citadel: In our absence from Tanaan, Gul'dan had prepared everything he needs to summon the Legion, and this patch would be a lot similar lorewise as our current HFC patch, however, a few changes: -Tyrant Velhari would be replaced by... Yrel. In the early production, Blizzard said that Yrel had a "dark secret", which I think would've been awesome, we face the traitor eredar instead. -Final Boss: Mannoroth: I am not a fan of this "One legion" lore, so instead of facing an AU Archimonde and needing to face him later in the game for a third time, we could face a resurrected Mannoroth instead, on his death, he sends Gul'dan through the Dark Portal (Which would be under Legion control for then) to send him to azeroth. I never got how Gul'dan came to azeroth by being sent through a portal connected to Argus. With our business on Draenor done, we would return to Azeroth. Now, for a bit of lore I forgot to mention, because it's important here, before WoD, we would discover that Outland's connection to the Nether is eating it away, the shattered planet would collapse slowly, however its speed increasing, this would cause us to try and rescuse as many inhabitants of the planet as we can, which the Iron Horde disrupts. With the AU Draenor linked to MU Azeroth, and no way to undo it, he Bronze and Blue dragonflights work together to merge these two timelines together in a way, the MU outland would be forever lost, collapsing to come to an end soon, and AU Draenor holding better reinforcements for the fights ahead. Legion: Oh boy, that was a lot of writing, well... almost done... Broken Shore; Intro: Okay, in here perhaps we could lose two other important characters, Vol'jin's death here was stupid, and that of Varian, while awesome, I see him as an alliance counterpart of Garrosh; Strong, Somewhat brutal, honorful, has some great backstory to him, I know I shouldn't, but he's one of the two characters I put plot-armor on, because it's just so hard to replace him with someone just as likeable, if not more. Aszuna: Nearly everything is perfect, the only bother here is that the blue dragonflight is there and infertile, part of that whole "age of mortals" thing, so they'd still be fertile... Stormheim: No Sylvanas involved, perhaps some other faction war stuff? Worgen vs Forsaken is still viable, but less connected to the entire Vrykul stuff. Less Felskorn, seriously, a few more allied vrykul that ain't valarjar would be great. Highmountain: Involve Ebonhorn and Sabelion to track down and together with you, kill Wrathion, who is among the people to blame for the Legion's presence, the rest's good. Val'sharah: -Ysera indeed gets corrupted, but we do not face her in a solo quest, rather in the raid. -Nightmare Corruption CAN be reversed, it's funny because there's a WQ with us cleansing the land of it, which you mentioned is impossible in questing, you couldn't even stick to "unreversable" for one patch, you went against it in the same patch as when you made this a thing! -Less people get corrupted, I mean we lost 2 archdruids aside from cenarius AND ysera.. calm down, we get it, corruption powerful and all that.. Suramar: As an opposer to the "you are our Only hope" style of writing, i am also really against becoming the jarl of jandvik, maybe thane at most... Give the Vrykul place to the Horde, and Shal'aran to the Alliance. Isles in general: Highmountain tauren and Vrykul go Horde, the elven factions Alliance, give a PvP area between Val'sharah and Highmountain. Both factions will still have quests in all zones, but instead do so with other NPCs at other places, just as in TBC and Wrath Emerald Nightmare Replace Ursoc with Omen, you know, the ancient driven insane that we faced every year at lunar festival? How about we fight him in the nightmare, don't kill him, though, and Omen is finally freed from his madness, and now a new ally, lunar festival would change accordingly, we've fought omen for enough years.. Replace Dragons of Nightmare with Ysera, as Ysera dies, Ysondre, who has faced the nightmare before, would reluctantly accept to become the new aspect, her previous encounters with the nightmare making her the most experienced dragon to deal with it, and thus, the best replacement possible. Cenarius would be killed, however, permanently too, as he is within the Emerald Dream, and I feel like ancients should be bound to the dream, just as it demons are to the Nether and can only be permanently killed in the nether (Also on that topic, only powerful demons should be able to be reborn like that) Shaladrassil is beyond saving, and is burned away to prevent corruption after the EN raid, as the nightmare isn't quite dead yet, just pushed back. We wouldn't become class hall leaders either, and as previous expansions should've been, we would remain adventurers This means we'd not be hunting down these super powerful demons on our own. Speaking of class hall bosses though... Hakkar should not be a Fel Lord, but rather as described in lore before "A burning skeletal demon" who weilds a whip made of felhound skin as a weapon, here's an image of official artwork: And on topic on Fel Lords and other "Powerful Demons", we should not face them often at all, the only two Fel Lords I think are alright up to now are the one in HFC and the upcoming one in ToS Moving on... No Xe'ra/Illidan redemption, the redemption of illidan would be in TBC, sunwell patch, discovering that we were decieved and now Illidan is dead, the end. A long questchain involving Tirion's death and throughout the Legion patches, discovering about a rogue Nathrezim (Lothraxion) (no connection to turalyion/alleria this time around) and in the end aiding him, Lothraxion would, near the end of the expansion, take the mantle of Highlord of the Argent Crusade, reforging the broken Ashbringer into a shield. 7.1: The Gates of Helheim Not much to change with the entire Helya/odyn thing, maybe make odyn less of a really dislikable character? I also don't like Helya being a Val'kyr, perhaps just a former ally of odyn, swayed to the dark by Loken? Speaking of Val'kyr... Aradne would be the second final boss of this Raid, perhaps Guarm>Aradne>Helya, no need to be tested by odyn... again..., Aradne would serve as a mockery to odyn, something that says; "Hey, you remember your glorious creation? Yeah, not even they are safe from my grasp" Now, this is also where a large plot twist comes in.. What if Aradne was always a servant of Helya, Val'kyr were very smart members of the Scourge, and what if Helya had a better grasp over them than even Arthas? What I would do is reveal here that this is one of the reasons of the Kvadir in Northrend, the Kvadir were there to contact the dark Val'kyr, and sway them to serve Helya, and so they did, they pretended to serve Arthas further, constantly drawing his powerful soul ever closer to Helheim. When Arthas died, this is where his sould would be sent.. and this is where the Val'kyr could temporally bring Sylvanas' soul aswell, giving her the impression being stuck with Arthas is where her fate would lay if dead. Just like Arthas' soul, that of Sylvanas would also be very powerful, and a great gift to Helya, so they fooled both arthas and sylvanas, binding both souls to helheim in the end. Once Helya is dead, I would think, THIS is a better place to put another "keeper of the dead", someone who would draw the souls of the dishonorable into hell, a punishment for their disgrace, one who would work together with Odyn to keep justice among the Vrykul. Who this would be I do not know, perhaps a final redemption for either arthas or sylvanas... 7.2: Tomb of Sargeras(?) -Dalaran's Fall As we assault the Tomb of Sargeras, the Legion manages to counterattack, the Tomb's fel beam is amied at Dalaran, and it succeeds, we evacuate as many people as we can and escape, A broken Dalaran plummets into the seas below, the capital will be moved to Suramar City, now that we have ripped it from the Legion's control. -Kil'jaeden not final boss of Tomb, how about the Avatar of Sargeras being the final boss, I am sure something else fits in there to have as another boss to get the number right. As for Argus and all that, look, I'm clueless, I wouldn't want any of it to happen in the first place yet, ending the Legion still feels premature, and I'd try to make ToS the final raid of the Expansion, I'm not sure what I'd put inbetween, maybe that scrapped night elf island, Thal'dranath.. However, Regarding the "Army of the Light" which may be dubbed as something else, it would include more than broek and draenei, it would be an army spanning from a whole array of different races from different worlds where they resisted the Legion, a good place to let developers go wild, they could make what they want here, chanses are we wont ever see this race again anyways. Argus would be introduced the last Legion-related patch in wow, and either the final or second final boss would be Archimonde AND Kil'jaeden at the same time, if not the last, Sargeras would be the last, another boss that I'd not have killed before that would be Aggonar, he appeared collossal in TBC, and would perhaps be more powerful than even Mannoroth. Battle for Azeroth: First off let's start with the subraces, void elves... wouldn't exist, you want to roll a void elf, go roll any type of elf, and go shadow priest. I don't think subraces need to be equal between Horde and Alliance, rather go with what fits more. I'd give the Alliance the Nightborne instead, if we need to make it equal, give orcs their mag'har, its the most requested subrace ever. The rest of the story: We don't know much yet, but we do know that the Zandalari will be introduced into the Horde, this is the expansion where Vol'jin would die in the pre-expansion, Rastakhan taking the leadership over trolls later on. Horde/Alliance war would need a new reason to be started, with Varian and Garrosh alive, and Sylvanas dead, the speculation of Sylvanas starting this war can't work, and since Sargeras didn't stab the planet, Azerite wouldn't be a thing either, but I do believe a certain valuable resource needs to be the cause of the war, both factions are weakened by the Legion, and one faction getting all the resources may mean the end of the other in the future, as they will be overpowered by a large amount. -Capital cities do indeed get invaded, Teldrassil is burned away, fulfilling the prophecy of Il'gynoth "five torches to light our path", those being the world trees, including the unknown one that was in Un'goro, they were all burned, representing the torches, these trees' roots dig deep into the earth, burning them may make way for N'zoth to rise. (Eldre'thalas new Nelf city, dont know for Undead) Chronicles: -Azeroth is not a titan, rather a normal planet, the Well of Eternity would be, as speculated, a fountain of power the Titans have planted to reinforce our chanses to win against the Old Gods and their minions -The Old Gods are not minions of the Void, the Void would be just another element, one fitting to the Old Gods, sure, but not their masters, the Old Gods are perhaps without masters, or perhaps something else than the Void leads them. -Other titans did visit Draenor, and it does have an Emerald Dream, to which Anzu and Rukhmar for example, are connected to. -The Broken Curse is made from an amplified Sethe's blood sample, rahter than the red pox, more similarities: Both Sethe's curse and the Legion's weapon disconnected the target from the Light Both Sethe's curse and the Legion's weapon deformed the body of the target into a broken state. -I feel like the pre-chronicles Sargeras, even though much simpler, was far more menacing, a titan who has gone mad by countless eons of fighting demons/the void is much scarier than one who simply thought "Let's kill all life so nothing can get corrupted" -Pantheon still alive, simply fled from Sargeras, we've heard so much about them, to just declare them dead is a huge waste. Misc: -Grand Army of the Light, whenever it happens, way more races, let the developers do some freestyle races to add as models as random members of the army! -Third War=10 years before World of Warcraft classic, and ingame timeline should correlate with the real timeline, look up when either World First kills were made, or when the next patch came out, whichever is a more realistic time lapse for said accomplishment.Nishio119 5d
5d Would causing a pyrrhic victory fix Hordes mood? Some people are already considering this as some sort of solution regarding the factional pride for the Red Team (now that things with Sylvanas seem so gloomy). For all of you needing some clarification about what "Pyrrhic" means: A Pyrrhic victory is a victory that inflicts such a devastating toll on the victor that it is tantamount to defeat. Someone who wins a Pyrrhic victory has also taken a heavy toll that negates any true sense of achievement. Essentially, the Horde dumps all its resources into fighting the Alliance and causes such a huge amount of casualties, that even if the Alliance actually "won" the war by killing Sylvanas, the sense of loss is such that their situation ends up being par on the "defeated" side (Horde). Would going down full warmonger-mode fix how invested the Horde players felt about this?. Having the Horde elves (both Nightborne and Blood elves) deciding they want to expand their domains now that both sides are in war. Get their supremacist genes kicking in and invading Alliance lands. Having trolls and Zandalari deciding to do the same. Have Gallywix unleash all the weaponry he has been hoarding these last years. Have the Mag'har storm out of the Dark Portal and aim for the total massacre of the Lightforged they view as "light abominations".... No longer would it be a "defensive" stance about "securing" their future, but a full-scale conquest approach. In a similar way Garrosh wanted it to happen, but fixing one of the few flaws his plan had: have each and every Horde race be considered as equals amongst the rest. Because if the story writers don't bother giving the faction some "moralist" reasons as to why would they start this war, maybe the only possible route left is to embrace being the aggressive expansionist faction. Like they said in some a Disney movie: If I have to be the bad guy, then i'll be the baddest of them all. Opinions?Eysion41 5d
5d Garrosh was right all along From the Hellscream short story. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Garrosh kept his glee hidden. His father was seriously considering his words. Already Grommash was contemplating ways to shepherd a united orc people, a Horde. I suppose I should thank you, Kairoz, Garrosh thought. "And if that is not enough for the moment," he added, "tell them about the marvels we'll plunder from the draenei." "You said they were not the threat Gul'dan claims," Grommash said. "They aren't, but they will stand in the way eventually. Better to deal with them sooner than later. You will see," Garrosh said. Grommash didn't look convinced. "Perhaps." He fell silent as they finally topped the last rise. The Stones of Prophecy were only a short distance away. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Garrosh warns AU Grom about the threat of the Draenei, in the end, he was proven right: left alone, they became a bunch of zealots. They were as much threat as the Legion and should have been dealt with. Grom should have got the hint when they called this world "Draenor", it was always their intention to claim it for their own ... the lost their world to hubris, now they steal someone else's home.Alpandone18 5d
5d Blowing up Archeologists is Okay? ((Spoilers)) So, I'm just going to link this video as my main material. and I find it a little horrifying, How no one has made a topic concerning this act of Violence and transgression. the Alliance are setting up bombs and blowing up archeologists, kills exiled Zandalari. No matter how you look at it, what they are killing here are not soldiers, but civilians, doing excavations of troll sites. They even violently have the main archeologists brutally murdered. we then later see how they plant bombs at each dig-site and detonates them, killing swift and mercilessly scientists of history and research. So, as the title suggests is it okay blow up none-soldiers like this?Dormus41 5d
19 May (Spoiler) Sylv 100% justified ? In BBtS, Sylvanas gets rid of a lot of 'dead wood'. Entraps all of the Forsaken who wish to 'desert', by gathering them all in one place and then getting rid of them. All intelligence agencies irl would be as pleased as hell if a 'honeytrap' worked anywhere near as brilliantly as that. In many wars irl, deserters / usurpers were shot. What Sylv did was no different whatsoever. She now knows that all those who are with her, are with her. Imo, her actions were 100% justified and correct.Lswindrunner92 19 May
19 May Before the storm. (The Naaru) Spoilers I think this deserves it's own thread. A NAARU convinces Calia to try a coup and make some of the forsaken defect. The same naaru Saa'ra then turns her into a holy undead in the epilogue. This is sketchy as hell. Why are people glossing over this detail? This is pretty big in my opinion. The whole war in BFA started because of the Naaru. 19 May
19 May [spoiler] Rly blizzard do you hate the Hellscreams? Are you kidding me blizzard? You killed and destroyed Garrosh, and now you are going to kill Grom a 2e time....Roghosh27 19 May