WoW, Investment & Difficulty

New/Returning Player Questions & Guides
So to get to the point. What I'm asking is has wow still got difficulty?

And are they still things to achieve in the game that are tough to get?

From what I've played so far dungeons and questing has been a breeze and I haven't had to think at all. Ive heard people say raids have become the same, is this true.

I played the game briefly when Burning Crusade came out but didn't really have a chance to keep playing at the time (Was loving wow at the time though) I remember people struggling with the enemies in dungeons and tanking was difficult, you had to really be smart with what you pulled and really think about what you were doing. This seems to have completely disappeared and been replaced by mindlessly pushing buttons and mobs dropping in several seconds.

No enemies seem to give much trouble in a dungeon, its just 10 minutes of mashing buttons and slaughtering everything that moves, collect the loot and leave. There's no tactical decision making needed...

I've leveled up to 70 and its all i've seen so far, the only time ive felt immersed and challenged was when i jump into some pvp in Battlegrounds.

Hopefully the game gets tougher... Can someone give me further info on the late game currently?
When it comes to PvE, I reckon that a group of decent folks could do a raid on Normal, so not difficult.

Heroic raids seem to require more than your below average joe, but still likely not difficult enough for hardcore types.

Mythic raids are designed for the hardcores. If that still isn't difficult enough for you, then make your own difficulty. Go under-geared, remove some armour, aim for achievements, remove your weapon if a caster etc.
Well some of the achivments require a bit of time invested, but not really that hard.

For me Heroic is fairly challanging at the moment, blackrock foundry has stepped it up quite a bit since high maul. (which was easy as all hell except for imp)

Mythic is definaly not for scrubs at all. And then there are challange modes aswell, which take quite a bit of cordination and skill aswell.
Sounds like there's some end game raiding that poses some difficulty and the pvp of course will always be a challenge.

I don't understand why they've watered down everything before then though so that you can literally blitz through dungeons and questing. I mean, if they are going that route they may as well take the pre 80 leveling content away entirely as there hasn't been any challenge in questing or dungeons thus far.

The game seems to hand you gold at every turn so there's little point to delving into crafting for money making purposes, playing the economy or any motivation to do so. I don't know, I just haven't felt challenged or had that sense of immersion from the game, it seems like everything is handed to you now, be that money and gear so there's little that's difficult to obtain and therefore no motivation in setting any goals for yourself or feeling that sense of achievement when you've gotten to a certain point.

I tried Eve Online recently also and the way that game is designed is everything i want in an mmo, I just wish it had wow like gameplay to go alongside it.

But yeah, i'm just putting across my honest thoughts, it's an interesting topic i think and I do feel like wow may have crossed the line into making everything so convenient and easy to obtain that its lost what once made it great.
Anything where you compete with other players will always be a challenge, wether its world best, challenge modes realm best / world best or getting high rating in pvp. The difficulty is something you have to seek now. The games targeted at everyone now and doesnt require you to improve or anything to level, creates a huge gap between people who reach 100 for the first time and people whos played for a long time
16/02/2015 12:58Posted by Zivaro
I don't understand why they've watered down everything before then though so that you can literally blitz through dungeons and questing.

There's a subtle problem with this statement. Essentially, if you have a gradient of difficulty, for some people almost everything will be "watered down," which is to say that they will be able to blitz through everything beyond a certain threshold. Wherein lies the threshold depends on skill of a given person.

They could ramp up the difficulty, more skilled people will improve their skills, and they will again complain that almost everything is watered down. Of course, it may happen that you personally will be unable to reach such level that it will feel all watered down to you, but I assure there will be people to whom it will feel like that.
16/02/2015 17:43Posted by Kalistess
16/02/2015 12:58Posted by Zivaro
I don't understand why they've watered down everything before then though so that you can literally blitz through dungeons and questing.

There's a subtle problem with this statement. Essentially, if you have a gradient of difficulty, for some people almost everything will be "watered down," which is to say that they will be able to blitz through everything beyond a certain threshold. Wherein lies the threshold depends on skill of a given person.

They could ramp up the difficulty, more skilled people will improve their skills, and they will again complain that almost everything is watered down. Of course, it may happen that you personally will be unable to reach such level that it will feel all watered down to you, but I assure there will be people to whom it will feel like that.


Of course skill is variable from player to player. The problem is though that if you were to make a new character, hit level 15 and start queuing for dungeons, every dungeon you take part in you will notice any group of players will rush through it with very few to 0 problems each time. The pace is extremely fast because you dont have to think. The tank just looks at the map and everyone follows mashing buttons, mobs drop and loot is collected. At this level right up until 80 it's exactly the same. A skillful player or a player that just understands how to control his character can do these dungeons at that pace as they currently stand. The same goes for questing - there in lies the problem.

Now i'm not talking about end game raiding because I understand that is a different ball game and some skill may be required but when questing and doing dungeons is universally easy up until level 80 for everyone and no challenge is given to the player, then it becomes pointless really, theres no motivation to do the content, no achievement just a promise of things becoming fun and exciting at the max level. I think blizzard forgot that some people enjoy a fun leveling experience and not just end game content but when you can do quests and dungeons stupidly easy it then becomes mindless grind.

If you were to level a new character right now and take note of what i've said you will see thats basically how the leveling content is at the moment.

Hopefully I have articulated myself well enough to demonstrate my point
I see you mention TBC 5 mans. In TBC the biggest problem, if you didn't massively outgear the places, was to get the right classes, for heroics, ideal setup would be Pala tank (only one with AOE tanking back then) and a couple of mages for cc. With this group setup, all hcs were easy, even with the players in subpar gear. There was no LFG so it was spamming "LF Pally tank and a mage for MgT hc", this didn't make any sense and it's good that all classes can do the job as of Wotlk, making all setups viable.

I played a bit on a trial acc a couple of days back so saw how the early content looks now. It is easier, a lot easier in fact, you are correct in saying this but not in a way that messes badly the experience. If low level 5 mans took ages to complete (some dungeons are pretty big), it would take ages just to get out of a leveling dungeon, reaching level cap would simply take too long.

To be honest, the toon I now play on trial has a chance of becoming a new main, I would not even bother if I had to redo everything to level it up. Most people have done Vanilla, TBC and Wotlk 5 mans too many times on too many toons, as WoW is out for 10 years now. It makes sense to make the runs faster, it's not new content anymore for most of the players and it would take ages to level a new toon had they preserved the original difficulty.

From your POV, it detracts stuff from the game as you are running them for the first time, which is fair criticism but it has always been the case that those who wanted a challenge raided or did PVP (and this is why they probably speeded up leveling).
Tbh I'd see it as an opportunity from Blizz to allow people to get dungeon gear for smoother leveling experience, allowing them to hit cap faster and do what people now do at lvl 100 too. I personally want this, as my max toons are still stuck at 80 (been out for 5 yrs).

It's kind of the same argument of why BT/MH gear was DEd in Wotlk when it was a challenge to kill those bosses etc etc. The truth is that the later 5 man dungeon drops simply gave the opportunity to those of us not in Sunwell gear to be able to enter the next tier of raiding without having to run it in subpar gear from BT/MH and thus we were brought to be on par with those who did more in the past.

I'd see all these things as a reset to give everyone a shot at it.
16/02/2015 18:30Posted by Zivaro
Of course skill is variable from player to player. The problem is though that if you were to make a new character, hit level 15 and start queuing for dungeons, every dungeon you take part in you will notice any group of players will rush through it with very few to 0 problems each time.

While problems are, admittedly, rare until cata dungeons, I have done just that, and have seen several groups failing horribly, to the point of dissolving, or replacing half of the group. This hardly ever happens if tank knows what he's doing, though. I mention this, because I think you overstate this part of your point. Not by much, but still ;-)

A skillful player or a player that just understands how to control his character can do these dungeons at that pace as they currently stand. The same goes for questing - there in lies the problem.

I think the description "skilful" does not belong here for reasons I stated earlier. For skilful player this is just an argument of how exactly to shape the gradient of difficulty. Which is a fair question, but you have to accept that for some people stuff will be easy, and blitz, and all that. Unless you make the whole game as hard as mythic raiding. But I'm not sure that would be the game I'd want to play, for example. I do like to have a challenge, but not necessarily all the time.

Oh, and yeah, questing is probably universally easy. I did see people struggling here and there, but in my experience those are *really* few and far between.

Now i'm not talking about end game raiding because I understand that is a different ball game and some skill may be required but when questing and doing dungeons is universally easy up until level 80 for everyone and no challenge is given to the player, then it becomes pointless really, theres no motivation to do the content, no achievement just a promise of things becoming fun and exciting at the max level. I think blizzard forgot that some people enjoy a fun leveling experience and not just end game content but when you can do quests and dungeons stupidly easy it then becomes mindless grind.

If you were to level a new character right now and take note of what i've said you will see thats basically how the leveling content is at the moment.

I do understand your point, but I can't relate. It's too easy for you, and thus you have no motivation to play those parts of the game, fair enough. But I have only recently started playing this game, last September, and still found lots of things to learn about how the game works, story and world to explore and all that. In fact, I still feel like I have a lot of things I could learn, even though at this point levelling more toons is easy enough (and I have just finished levelling a shaman from 1 post-WoD).

I wrote my response, because time and time again I see people stating things like "no challenge during levelling = no motivation," and similar stuff as if they were universal truths, and everybody was motivated the same way. They are not. Not to mention people implicitly assuming everyone has as much experience, or skill as them. They do not.

I still remember when they mistuned some of the levelling dungeons during pre-patch, and there were people on the forums actually complaining that they can no longer rush through them. I do not enjoy such rush. I prefer to take it somewhat slower, and focus on the ride, but I just accept that not everybody is like that.

Still, we both have right to dislike certain aspects of the game/community, and discuss what those are, don't we? :-)
Leveling etc. is very easy, personally I am split whether this is good or bad but honestly leaning towards bad as you lose the 'magic' in it. Less effort>less feeling of accomplishment. In end game you can either go super easy and casual, lfr and bgs mainly (currently what i do these days), do some HC raids in a guild, or go hardcore challangemodes/Mythic raiding if you want to play hardcore. Same can be said with PvP, where BGs and PuG arenas are 'casual' while Arenas for rating are considered 'hardcore' more or less. The game is still hard, if you play it ''the right way'' imo.
Have you by chance scored some world wide firsts on mythic raids? Something tells me otherwise. Then you have just been avoiding the challenging parts of the game.

Leveling should not be difficult. In fact, one must argue whether leveling as it is now should even be in the game in the first place. You could just remove it altogether by now and it would only impact around 5% of the game.
I think the description "skilful" does not belong here for reasons I stated earlier. For skilful player this is just an argument of how exactly to shape the gradient of difficulty. Which is a fair question, but you have to accept that for some people stuff will be easy, and blitz, and all that. Unless you make the whole game as hard as mythic raiding. But I'm not sure that would be the game I'd want to play, for example. I do like to have a challenge, but not necessarily all the time.


We're not talking about bringing the majority of the game from how it is now to mythic raiding difficulty, yes some people will always fly through things and find the weakness in every encounter but that's not the point. The point is actually having a little bit of challenge in the questing experience and dungeons pre-cata. These parts of the game are what people see first and as they stand at the moment are mindless - everything is easily doable, there is no challenge or the need to use you brain to think out any of the quests that lie ahead before 90.

And because of this the leveling up experience feels very bland, it is mindless grind because your chances of facing any challenge await in X amount of hours when you reach 90 - level cap. You can find many topics on this because it is how the game currently stands. I get that they want to maybe speed up everything and let you fly through leveling so a vet player can get their 7th toon to 100 quite quickly but in doing so they have mutilated content new players have yet to try. Heirlooms already speed up content for vets, you can still keep the quest xp the same so that you level up fast just add some sense of danger to some questing mobs and dungeons so there's a little bit of immersion and challenge in the game before level 90 for goodness sake.

I do understand your point, but I can't relate. It's too easy for you, and thus you have no motivation to play those parts of the game, fair enough. But I have only recently started playing this game, last September, and still found lots of things to learn about how the game works, story and world to explore and all that. In fact, I still feel like I have a lot of things I could learn, even though at this point levelling more toons is easy enough (and I have just finished levelling a shaman from 1 post-WoD).


Here you talk about some of the driving elements that keep you playing the game, two major points you touch on are story and the world to explore. These two elements I completely agree are amazing aspects to the warcraft universe, I find myself enjoying learning about certain places I may have visited in the game or just going out and questing and seeing a new area - all of that is great. Which makes it even more disappointing when early game content has been made so mindless, it ruins it.

Perhaps having those memories of planning out what crafting I was going to do so I could make some $$$ in-game or having that fear of a group of murlocs destroying me if I wasn't too careful and made sure not to pull too many in a quest or in early game dungeons you had to also be aware of whats in each room and how much could be pulled, using your brain and being immersed in a dungeon with a group. Right now the tank pretty much screams YOLO running into double digit mobs and the team follow with ease. Perhaps knowing what the game was once like had ruined it for me in regards to how it has become. Don't get me wrong though, I really like some of the new aspects, I couldn't live without dungeon finder but that little bit of challenge while leveling made everything in the game fun, not just end-game as it currently stands.
17/02/2015 02:45Posted by Aran
Leveling etc. is very easy, personally I am split whether this is good or bad but honestly leaning towards bad as you lose the 'magic' in it. Less effort>less feeling of accomplishment. In end game you can either go super easy and casual, lfr and bgs mainly (currently what i do these days), do some HC raids in a guild, or go hardcore challangemodes/Mythic raiding if you want to play hardcore. Same can be said with PvP, where BGs and PuG arenas are 'casual' while Arenas for rating are considered 'hardcore' more or less. The game is still hard, if you play it ''the right way'' imo.


What I keep hearing is, if you want challenge do mythic raiding and/or get invested in rated arenas. This makes perfect sense and I'm not disputing that there is options for players that desire challenge, but this is all end-game, that's the problem here "End" game.

As you said, bringing back some of the magic in the leveling content. This is what is needed and what this entire topic is about.

17/02/2015 12:35Posted by Тевеш
Have you by chance scored some world wide firsts on mythic raids? Something tells me otherwise. Then you have just been avoiding the challenging parts of the game.

Leveling should not be difficult. In fact, one must argue whether leveling as it is now should even be in the game in the first place. You could just remove it altogether by now and it would only impact around 5% of the game.


I completely disagree with your post. I'm not avoiding challenging parts of the game and as stated several times above I'm not stating end-game content is the problem. There should be some sense of danger in the world and not just the current mindset alot of people seem to have of, "No but you're wrong because the difficulty is there if you look for it when your at 100" - When you're at 100, this is the problem. Why remove the engaging experiences people have when they first turn on the game, it should be seen throughout with obviously the most difficult aspects being at the end.

.................................................................................................................................. /
................................................................................................................................. /
Difficulty Learning Curve > --------------------------------------------------------------------/
.................................................Level 1........................Level 50....................Level 100

Here, I made a little graph to illustrate my point and demonstrate why this design philosophy is not fun for people who enjoy a leveling experience.

However, you are right in saying that it should be removed by now. ...IF it stays as it currently is, only affecting 5% of players? As stated some people enjoy a fun leveling experience and not just rushing to end-game.

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