No Gear matters in PvP

General
Quite an elegant solution really;

Legion PvP

There won't be gear with Resilience, PvP Power, dual item levels, or gear specifically made for PvP.
The team doesn't want people to feel that they must have PvP gear to participate in PvP.
When you enter a battleground or arena, the game will set your stats from your spec, not your gear. This means all of your stats will come from a template specific to your spec. If one spec isn't doing well in PvP, their spec's template can be tuned individually.
PvP talents plus the spec stat templates will allow the team to tune balance in arenas and battlegrounds much better than they ever have been able to do before.
PvP right now uses gear as a progression system. Once players get their full set of gear, many of them are done.
PvP Talents try to take the place of the progression that came from gear.
Trinkets, set bonuses, and enchants will not be active in PvP.
Right now players stack enchants, set bonuses, and trinkets, lining them all up at once to do a lot of damage. Outside of when all of those are up, players don't feel like they are doing much damage. This should help to make sustained damage a bigger part of PvP.
Once players reach the max PvP level, they can reset it to gain a Prestige level. This gives access to different cosmetic rewards.
When a player reaches PvP level 10 (roughly 20% of the way there), they will have unlocked an option in every row.
The CC break trinket has become very important in PvP, so adding it as a PvP talent will offset the loss of active trinkets. There will be some other options in that row that might be useful, such as reducing CC times by 20%.
The team hasn't decided exactly what they are going to do with the Human racial. They could leave it alone and offer a different talent in that row to Humans. The racial plus the new options could be too good.
As you get better gear, your stats are increased a smaller amount. For example, every 5 item levels may give you a 1% stat increase. This way gear still will increase your power, but it won't give you a huge advantage.
There are plans for players to be able to get great gear from PvP, but it may not be as easy as it is today. It may be easier for high rated players to get better gear than more casual players.
You won't have to raid to get the best gear for PvP.


I still don't understand why PvE Gear (and there is no PvP gear anymore) will be available from PvP. Cosmetic rewards, def. But actual Gear (which would only have a use in PvE...) is strange.
I was always on the "no pvp gear" camp.

Ita easy to get the gear for pvp. But i dont like that system.
Just because skull is the most important aspect of it.

As a fully geared rogue i can spam hemo and kill ungeared warrior that uses all its cds. Its exageration but not far from it.

Whats the fun in that.

Pvp should be equal for all. Skill should prevail
16/08/2015 11:38Posted by Bitterness
I still don't understand why PvE Gear (and there is no PvP gear anymore) will be available from PvP. Cosmetic rewards, def. But actual Gear (which would only have a use in PvE...) is strange.

A) For longest time, people did PvP for gear to use in PvE, since for average player without guild, it takes less effort than alternatives of similar ilvl (as long as he's willing to PvP for it)
B) A lot of things are PvE-only. World events, rares, mobs near crafting nodes. You might not need gear for PvP, but it would be silly if PvP players had to keep their WoD gear or questing greens just to be able to kill some random mob in the world.
C) Gear still affects PvP. 1% stats increase per 5 ilvl in WoD would mean 20% difference between fresh lvl100 and one in best gear.
Not sure how they intend to make 'PvP' gear be best in PvP and decent in PvE, without making it also 'best' in PvE. Probably Ilvl limit, with items above certain Ilvl providing exactly same benefit as items at that ilvl.
16/08/2015 11:38Posted by Bitterness
I still don't understand why PvE Gear (and there is no PvP gear anymore) will be available from PvP.

Because the distinction between "PVE" gear and "PVP gear" is just silly... There is just GEAR. Period.

Makes more sense to me too.

I also never saw the problem with players having two ways (PVP or PVE) to obtain the same gear.
16/08/2015 11:48Posted by Valyrion
I was always on the "no pvp gear" camp.

Ita easy to get the gear for pvp. But i dont like that system.
Just because skull is the most important aspect of it.

As a fully geared rogue i can spam hemo and kill ungeared warrior that uses all its cds. Its exageration but not far from it.

Whats the fun in that.

Pvp should be equal for all. Skill should prevail


I am on same camp as you. And I also support changing (read: balancing) abilities differently PvP and PvE. Also without gearlevels in PvP - it's more fun for all, even for new players and people, who play any random class other than FoTM/wrongly tuned one.

I really hope they got to balance this part of game more. Its long due.
Gear still affects PvP. 1% stats increase per 5 ilvl in WoD would mean 20% difference between fresh lvl100 and one in best gear.


That's in direct contradiction to the earlier;

When you enter a battleground or arena, the game will set your stats from your spec, not your gear. This means all of your stats will come from a template specific to your spec


All your stats are supposed to come form spec. No Enchants, no other bonuses either.

Not sure how they intend to make 'PvP' gear be best in PvP


This is it. There is no 'PvP' gear. No gear has any impact in PvP. All gear is now only for PvE.

I also never saw the problem with players having two ways (PVP or PVE) to obtain the same gear.


Totally. I love the idea that there are multiple routes for gearing. I even supported Garrisons giving that method (for players that aren't keen on Dungeons/Raids), alongside Crafting.

Thinking about it more, getting PvE Gear form PvP is just another extension of this, and is something I fully support. :)

(I was thinking more of the design here when I posted)

Let players who prefer PvP get PvE gear to allow them to do whatever PvE stuff they desire as well.

I am on same camp as you. And I also support changing (read: balancing) abilities differently PvP and PvE. Also without gearlevels in PvP - it's more fun for all, even for new players and people, who play any random class other than FoTM/wrongly tuned one.


Setting the 'competitive' element of the game for everyone to be equal of gear is great.

Skill plays a more important part, than outgearing your opponent.

The only thing that I feel is lessened by this is old level 19 twinking. I had fun squeesing out more power in my level 19 twink than others.

But I suppose that went anyway when you could switch XP off.
16/08/2015 12:29Posted by Bitterness
Gear still affects PvP. 1% stats increase per 5 ilvl in WoD would mean 20% difference between fresh lvl100 and one in best gear.


That's in direct contradiction to the earlier;

When you enter a battleground or arena, the game will set your stats from your spec, not your gear. This means all of your stats will come from a template specific to your spec


All your stats are supposed to come form spec. No Enchants, no other bonuses either.


There is no contradiction. This piece only means that no matter how much multistrike (for example) you have on your gear, in pvp it's amount will depend on your spec, not gear.

16/08/2015 12:29Posted by Bitterness
Not sure how they intend to make 'PvP' gear be best in PvP


This is it. There is no 'PvP' gear. No gear has any impact in PvP. All gear is now only for PvE.

Wrong. Just take a look at what you have put in first post yourself.


Legion PvP
As you get better gear, your stats are increased a smaller amount. For example, every 5 item levels may give you a 1% stat increase. This way gear still will increase your power, but it won't give you a huge advantage.

You won't have to raid to get the best gear for PvP.


This is all about PvP and PvP only. Better gear will give smaller stats increase in PvP, but "This way gear still will increase your power". Gear still (slightly) matters.
That's for PvE

You know the whole 'top end raider will be 7% more powerful than a freshly dinged 110'.

Seriously, I don't know of any other way to read;

the game will set your stats from your spec, not your gear. This means all of your stats


Not just Multistrike. But *All*.

Str/Agi/Int and Stamina.

All.

Unless Blizzard are still confused themselves...
16/08/2015 12:12Posted by Naeya
16/08/2015 11:38Posted by Bitterness
I still don't understand why PvE Gear (and there is no PvP gear anymore) will be available from PvP.

Because the distinction between "PVE" gear and "PVP gear" is just silly... There is just GEAR. Period.

Makes more sense to me too.

I also never saw the problem with players having two ways (PVP or PVE) to obtain the same gear.


If PvP obtained gear is viable in PvE then they better make it require similar skill, just winning a few arena matches should give gear that's the same as say heroic raiding gear, even an idiot can win a few arena matches.

I'm just hoping they don't limit pve gear progression, a fresh 110 shouldn't be doing anything close to a BiS raider.
16/08/2015 12:49Posted by Bitterness
That's for PvE

You know the whole 'top end raider will be 7% more powerful than a freshly dinged 110'.

Nope, that was for PvP. Because gear matters, and best gear is from mythic raids, but advantage in PvP is supposed to be so small.
Why would they even talk about PvE in PvP interview?
PvE would stop working if difference would be so small.

16/08/2015 12:49Posted by Bitterness

Not just Multistrike. But *All*.

[/quote]That was an example. But Primary stats have no variance on gear, and are direct function of item level. Bu secondary stats are not, so to not encourage players to go farm PvE gear with stats they want, all secondaries depend on spec, not geat, but that's for their proportions, not exact values, because gear still matters.
It is a bit better in WoD because the battlegrounds scale up your gear to some kind of baseline item level. It was not the case in MOP where your gear would only get scaled down if it was too good. So gearing up for PvP on a fresh level 100 character was an utter nightmare because you had your item level 430 or whatever garbage you gathered from questing in MOP and you really couldn't do anything. It was like low level ganking to these fully geared players against fresh dings trying to farm honor.

Sure, fully CQ geared dude will still be a lot stronger than fresh ding in wod but the diffrence is only like 35-40 item levels, not 120.

Still this new system is a good decision. I do hope we will get cosmetic gear for transmog purposes tho. If PvP has no gear progression, then it has to have cosmetic rewards such as mounts, new artifact skins and armor.

Rating-locked gear progression was even worse than what we have today. Players that are already good, were receiving even bigger power boosts, making them even harder to beat than they are from pure skill level. "Rich gets richer, poor gets even more fcked" yeah, Ive seen that before somwehere. Wait, everywhere.
Bormz, I think you miss the point.

If 'PvP' Gear exists (with no PvP specific stats), then Blizzard have the problem of PvPers doing PvE for the best gear, and/or vice versa.

This whole reveal was that gear (including enchants etc) have no effect on PvP, as all a players stats are based on their Class Template, not Gear.

Gear will have zero effect in PvP, with Stats coming from a fixed 'template' and upgrades coming from the new honour levels.

There is no way for this system to work, if gear still has an effect on this.

What could happen, is there might exist PvP gear that increases a Templates given stat, but I find that a long stretch as that would introduce a new PvP stat, which they have stated won't happen.

I do hope we will get cosmetic gear for transmog purposes tho. If PvP has no gear progression, then it has to have cosmetic rewards such as mounts, new artifact skins and armor.


That comes from Paragon resets, which provide Cosmetic only rewards.
Imo removing gear progression from pvp is a huge mistake, many players aren't going to settle for some worthless cosmetic rewards, expecially not as pve heroes are growing ever more powerful. My prediction is, that overall pvp participation is going to take another huge hit, because lots of players cba to join pvp (especially bgs) once the well established gear treadmill is gone.

A pvp system that puts everyone on even ground is a brilliant thing for arenas, but it's going to totally ruin battlegrounds (at least for me). I'm a die-hard bg player und pvper, but I highly doubt that without a rewarding gear treadmill WoW would be my game of choice. If I wanted to play a progression free mmo(minus rpg) I'd pick one of the many games that don't suffer from chronically abysmal class balance.

Holinka's 'revolutionary' Legion pvp system sounds like a copy of GW2's (which failed miserably).
There will be PvP gear if i'm not mistaken.
I think there will be rating system to obtain "best" gear.

Like 1600 for shoulders 1700 legs.. ..
16/08/2015 13:49Posted by Bitterness
Bormz, I think you miss the point.

If 'PvP' Gear exists (with no PvP specific stats), then Blizzard have the problem of PvPers doing PvE for the best gear, and/or vice versa.

This whole reveal was that gear (including enchants etc) have no effect on PvP, as all a players stats are based on their Class Template, not Gear.

Gear will have zero effect in PvP, with Stats coming from a fixed 'template' and upgrades coming from the new honour levels.

There is no way for this system to work, if gear still has an effect on this.


Well thats the possibility that the system wont work, despite them saying that gear will not matter. They have also added the contradiction of saying there can be a few % difference due to gear.

So it would seem that in Legion the system wont be changed in how it functions, if you have better gear you will still have greater power.
And they will probably put it in the content that is supposed to be glory and skill based Arena, just so that the arena players dont feel cheated they cant obtain greater power to "PWN" newbs using their (skill).

Rating players.
If pvp was really about the skill as "everyone" claims it is, then gear would just be from bg's. And the prestige and fame would be enough of a reward from arena. After all if you're better you will always win despite someone else having the same gear, or would it break the illusion of skill since you didnt have better gear.

But legion is far away, and they want feedback. So we should provide lots of feedback wanting pvp to be about the skill and not the greater power from gear.
16/08/2015 19:47Posted by Unfairy
Imo removing gear progression from pvp is a huge mistake, many players aren't going to settle for some worthless cosmetic rewards, expecially not as pve heroes are growing ever more powerful. My prediction is, that overall pvp participation is going to take another huge hit, because lots of players cba to join pvp (especially bgs) once the well established gear treadmill is gone.


The really 'hardcore' pvper in my guild, who does a lot of Rated stuff, hates the idea of the Paragon resets.

Going by the new information above, everyone starts as a base, set by your spec.

This Template is then improved upon by your Honour Rank. Until you reach max rank.

So to compete fully in the rated stuff he enjoys, he's gonna zoom to max honour, and stay there.

He won't be able to take the time off gaining Paragon by resetting his Honour rank, as that would remove all his upgrades and put him as base, versus other Rated players who will undoubtedly still remain at max Honour Rank.

So he'll have to ignore the whole Paragon side of things.

Seems like a great AA alternative for more casual PvPers though.
Why People most people are resisting the new changes in PVP?
Its all logical: Try to think about PVP, wow management and yourself.

1 - Possible Loss of Status
It is not our nature to make changes that we view as harmful to our current situation. In an organizational setting, this means employees, peers, and managers will resist administrative and technological changes that result in their role being eliminated or reduced. From their perspective, your change is harmful to their place in the organization!
Forcing a change on others has its place. Over time, however, when this is the only approach that you use to make change, you’ll find that your change results suffer. If you overuse this approach, you will harm your effectiveness over the long term as others will find direct and indirect ways to resist you. Without a thoughtful change strategy to address resistance to change, you will trigger strong resistance and organizational turnover.

2- Non-Reinforcing Reward Systems
There is a common business saying that managers get what they reward. Organizational stakeholders will resist change when they do not see any rewards.
When working with managers, I will ask them, Where is the reward to employees for implementing your change?
Without a reward, there is no motivation for your team to support your change over the long term. This often means that organizational reward systems must be altered in some way to support the change that you want to implement. The change does not have to always be major or costly. Intrinsic rewards are very powerful motivators in the workplace that are non-monetary.

3- Surprise and Fear of the Unknown
The less your team members know about the change and its impact on them, the more fearful they will become. Leading change also requires not springing surprises on the organization! Your organization needs to be prepared for the change.
In the absence of continuing two-way communication with you, grapevine rumors fill the void and sabotage the change effort. In fact, ongoing communication is one of your most critical tools for handling resistance to change. But, it’s not just telling! The neglected part of two-way communication — listening — is just as powerful.

4 - Peer Pressure
Whether we are introverted or extroverted, we are still social creatures. Organizational stakeholders will resist change to protect the interests of a group.
You might see this among some of your team members who feel compelled to resist your change to protect their co-workers. If you’re a senior executive or middle manager, your managers who report to you may will resist your change effort to protect their work groups.
As the psychologist Abraham Maslow discussed, the need to belong to a group is a powerful need in the workplace. If your change effort threatens these workplace social bonds, some of your team members may resist your change effort.

5 - Cimate of Mistrust
Some resist change as a political strategy to “prove” that the decision is wrong. They may also resist to show that the person leading the change is not up to the task. Others may resist because they will lose some power in the organizational. In these instances, these individuals are committed to seeing the change effort fail.
Sometimes when I work with managers they become frustrated with the political resistance that they encounter from others. Political obstacles are frustrating when you are trying to implement needed change. My advice to you is to acknowledge what you are feeling and then take positive steps to counter the organizational resistance you are facing.

6 - Fear of Failure
Sweeping changes on the job can cause your team members to doubt their capabilities to perform their duties. What is known is comfortable! Your team members may be resisting these changes because they are worried that they cannot adapt to new work requirements.
Fear is a powerful motivator that can harden people’s intent to resist your efforts to implement change. If you want your change effort to be successful, you’ll need to help your team members move beyond these fears.

8- Lack of Tact or poor timing
Sometimes it is not what a leader does, but it is how s/he does it that creates resistance to change! Undue resistance can occur because changes are introduced in an insensitive manner or at an awkward time.
In other words, people may agree with the change that you want to implement but they may not agree with how you are going about making the change.
For any significant organizational change effort to be effective, you’ll need a thoughtful strategy and a thoughtful implementation approach to address these barriers.

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