Legion Pet Battle Tuning

Pet Battles
I'll wrap up with my opinions on pet battling, of course starting with Graves, I'll keep it as short as I can(lol) whilst also aiming to be as astute as possible.

Graves - Having a unique and undoubted powerful moveset was irksome, I found both of those attributes to nearly encompass all my problems with Graves, I only play WoW, I will never obtain this pet from what I can perceive, which is fine(If not annoying due to his overwhelming PvP presence and power), however, it feels quite punishing when such pets are implemented in a somewhat gated fashion.
To summarize where I'm going with this, if I enjoy playing WoW and I enjoy pet battling/collecting I find it unfair that something outside of this to hold such a large sway on PvP battling, Graves is not the only criminal in this, pets such as Murkalot are also hugely a problem due to their unique movesets and I entirely feel that they should only be unique in one aspect, appearance.

Other notable pet battle components that I feel retract from the experience..

As mentioned above, speed battles, when two pets are of the same speed there should be a factor in which you can determine why a pet moves first, not just that they will take turns to hit one another, such as one pet entering the battle before another or even a racial baseline which determines the faster pets (such as critters being the fastest and undeads the slowest).

Using double or triple combinations in battles, whilst I'm entirely hypocritical in my efforts of being somewhat competitive, it's not great to see and generally retracts from the experience, to a lesser extent, seeing the same moves repeated over multiple pets can also steal from creative gameplay.

Unique moves! I'd like to see them Un-uniqued! Introduce other pet drops/captures that hold such moves.

~~~

So I post this with high hopes for the future of pet battles, I don't doubt a new box of tricks will open up upon change, which brings me to my last little quibble.

In general, I find it quite stale that something can stay the same for so long when it becomes quite clear it's a problem, this doesn't hold true for just pet battles but it makes for a good example, I'd really like to see quicker reactions to such things, even small tweaks can make differences, add variety or help promote creative play.

Figured I'd post this in high hopes of having it read, I really have so much I could say about WoW but I'm undoubtedly more of a reader than a writer at this moment in life, I hope to continue to enjoy the game, when life permits it.. ;)
My rotation is based upon my undead pets i have spent weeks getting it perfect and getting the right undead pets for garrison pet battles why do you keep nerfing everything when wod came out i spent 8 hrs straight everyday fishing enormous i took pride in my skill i have spent hours grinding rep to get Nat Pagle and was proud when i got him on my first char and what do you do you nerf fish now everyone can catch enormous at fish lvl 546 and buffed with all you got i have tested this and drop rate is 90% enormous i would make sometimes 15.000g in 5 days fishing not anymore Nat Pagle use to be special and hard to get now you can get him at neutral, when is it enough your not making the game better your making it worse i found a niche in fishing i like fishing it relaxes me now i dont bother I have a question these people that come up with these "improvements" are they young under 30 years of age i am 43 and still enjoy the game after 11 years of play before wow i played Warcraft III Reign of Chaos so that makes 14 years of Wow.
WoW is a great game no doubt so would you please tell your young people who prob like raiding and Dungeons which i don't anymore i stopped serious raiding when lvl 70 was max my last Dungeon was karazhan to leave something for us past 40 i am more into helping my guild members with what i know and i still learn new things so im still hooked but you keep making it harder and harder for us 40+ to enjoy the game what happend to exploring wow and having fun the pet battles was a great implement SO PLEASE STOP F........ up the game. you need to get back to basics and let us the user decide an example the first shipyard mis with destroyer you loose no matter what "But i manage to beat the Game and make it confused" which im damn proud of instead of loosing a destroyer i loose none but get 1 more sure the animation says failed but the game is stupid i beat it and manage to keep my destroyer and get 1 more I dont like having my decision made for me i want to choose so stop making Improvements and fix the bugs like the shrine bug i forget it each time i fly over the mountain near shrine what happens my mount disappears and im free falling well died the first 2 times it happend so now i keep glider handy
Thank you
"No need to reply i wont answer this is just a piece of my mind" just read and maybe make life for us 40+
easier again"
Okay maybe i am a little harsh but cant get into wow keep getting disconnected from server as soon as it loads i blame the timewalikng event
I haven't downvoted you, but I'm not surprised that you are. Illegible posts with a lot of offtopic are hardly appreciated.

Won't quote because of long parts of text (it's fine!), but will try to address some concerns.

The whole problem with the damned round is related with a speed-dependance of other buffs and debuffs. I'm sure that you've noticed how crowd-control and avoidance abilities last two rounds when performer is faster. Same thing also applies to shields, heals etc (mixed cheers to Ore Eater) aswell as negative backsides like of Reckless Strike.
"What?" – you may think. "In these situations, pets have to be faster, but my undead has to be slower!"
That happens because your undead can die either in the middle of the round, or at the very end, never at the start. More details to that below.
But why does it *all* happen?
This is an assumption only, with cheers to Vakeetah ;), but the engine seems to have two following rules:
"Each ability lasts minimum one round" and
"Each effect expires at the end of the round".
  • (Common effect) When your pet is faster, your buff starts de facto in the middle of a round, because an ability has been already performed. Hence it can't end by the current round because it doesn't last a round yet – a half only. To get a single round result, an ability would have to expire in the middle of the next round – but it can't because of the second limitation, so it lasts finally 1,5 rounds.
    When your pet is slower, your buff starts at the end of the round so the result is more close to a single round.
    Still note that an avoidance can still protect from bombs triggering at the very end like Entangling Roots.
  • (Damned round) When your pet is faster, your damned status is triggered at the end of the previous round and expires at the end of the current round.
    When your pet is slower, your damned status is triggered in the middle of the previous round and lasts 1,5 rounds because it can expire neither at the end of that round nor in the middle of the current one.
  • So what is proposed in fact is modifying these engine restrictions, what's a more significant thing that you would think. I'm not telling that because I'd be reluctant or something, I'm just trying to explain that! :)

    Oh… it doesn't seem legible either >.>'

    EDIT: Not correct – see post below.
    About the equal speed: I was sure that while the first move has to be triggered randomly, the rest of the encounter is made alternately so each pet looks like they attacked twice:
    P1 attacks first, P2 attacks last
    P2 attacks first, P1 attacks last
    P1 attacks first, P2 attacks last
    P2 attacks first, P1 attacks last
    and so on
    At least this is what I've seen while picking various pets to the Ashlei daily.
    I have yet to check if I can break the system with an ability attacking "always first". 8)


    I need to end my Love is in the Air things before I go out, so I'll end with these two subjects.
    But I'm glad to see new people and new ways here! :)
    29/02/2016 05:59Posted by Remte
    About the equal speed: I was sure that while the first move has to be triggered randomly, the rest of the encounter is made alternately so each pet looks like they attacked twice:

    P1 attacks first, P2 attacks last
    P2 attacks first, P1 attacks last
    P1 attacks first, P2 attacks last
    P2 attacks first, P1 attacks last
    and so on

    At least this is what I've seen while picking various pets to the Ashlei daily.
    I have yet to check if I can break the system with an ability attacking "always first". 8)

    My experiences with equal speed aren't consistent at all, or at least, not on a 1-1 basis. I've had times where a pet goes first two or three times (which may indicate a pattern with the first speed "roll" defining the priority for the rest of the match) and then all of a sudden, go last again. Definitely, it's neither always first, nor alternating; seems completely random to me.

    That's my only concern, the absolute lack of consistency. A priori, you can never know which pet will go first - some people may argue that it adds an extra layer of complexity and strategy, but in the end it's just RNG, and RNG is really ugly when fights are this short.

    Obviously, the greatest culprit of this circumstance is the stat spread and the breed formulas granting the same speed values to many pets (260, 276, 289, 325...) so if stat gains were slightly different between species, and balanced/hybrid breeds weren't taxed, we'd probably see a wider range of speed values and ties would be far less common (except on equal pets).

    In any case and for the time being, as I said before, regardless of the system used as a Speed tie-breaker (random, alternating or whatever) there has to be some indicator so that both players know beforehand which of the pets will go first this round, barring the usage of any priority moves.
    Thank you. ^^ Edited the post a bit.

    Racial Problems, ep. 3:

    I've noticed that when a beast pet dies, their damage over time retains buffed by 25%. Is it good or bad, I can't really tell. Probably the elusiveness of strong DoTs has made it less noticeable. On the other hand, if there was a beast with Explosive Brew
    Of course, pet with 0 HP is still below 50% ^^ but I'm almost sure that dragonkin DoTs "beyond the grave" aren't buffed by 50% every second time against a wounded pet. One could say that's because the damage source is no longer attributed to the corpse (imagine Siphon Life or Plagued Blood resurrecting a pet o_o), but still, it seems so to the beasts.
    Sorry about that i write here but i dont know how to send message a GM and maybe here will be read someone. I que in pet battles it says 3 min wait time but it will never call. I asket other people in my realm and they have 12sec que time and they can join. What is the problem?
    10/02/2016 14:51Posted by Aerythlea

    Undead racial
  • During its invulnerability round, the active Undead pet will now do -25% damage.
  • Developer note: The Undead racial ability has been one of the most powerful, and this change should help bring it in line with the others.

    Frog Kiss + Sleeping Gas
  • Now has a 1-round cooldown.
  • Dev note: The ability to chain stun opponents (until resilience kicks in) simply feels bad. Rather than a blanket change to resilience, we’re trying a surgical change to one of the more aggravating aspects.

    Thunderbolt, Avalanche, Grave Destruction, Carpnado, Arcane Storm, and Psionic Strom
  • Base Damage reduced by approximately 15%
  • Thunderbolt
  • Will now have a 5-Round cooldown, to match the other abilities with similar damage and effect.
  • Cleave
  • Added 1-round cooldown
  • Dev note: AoE abilities are very powerful in the current battle pet metagame, especially “meteor”-type abilities, which are quite effective against both groups of enemies and single targets. This should bring them closer to their intended power level.

    Graves
  • Clobber and Bonestorm slots swapped
  • Dev note: Graves has a bit too easy of a time damaging the entire enemy team. Though we see other setups with Graves, it’s been too easy to AoE, and a bit too powerful among AoE pets. We are wary of opening up additional new Graves combos with this change, and we’ll be testing this closely and reading all of your feedback.

  • Graves’ base stats changed: At level 25, Graves’ Speed will now be 244 (was 211), Power will now be 297 (was 314), and Health will now be 1587 (was 1668).
  • Dev note: Graves’ base stats, along with the Undead racial (which favors slow pets), made him an unfortunate opponent to play against. Combined with high AoE and Consume Corpse, he had very few downsides. This change should help bring his output in-line with other, similar pets.

    Overall, this constitutes a triple nerf to Graves. However, depending on your ability choices, you may consider the Clobber/Bonestorm slot swap an improvement. Please feel free to leave your feedback in this thread, and we’ll be here reading (and responding where necessary).

    Thank you very much!


    About the undead pets.

    -There are some undead pets that don't rely on basic damage reduction, instead they rely on the amount of % of the enemy's HP pool. So I don't see how you can simply solve it by reducing the base damage they deal?
    -I don't mind the undead have the 2 round immunity, because hey, they are "undead" after all. Makes perfect sense that they can still hang around for a while. It's not like they are OP because of this;
    I've beaten 3x Weebominations lot's of times, but I've also lost, because of not having the "right" team to beat them. And that's one aspect of PvP pet battling you can never assume in advance, so the team isn't OP. In addition you can still stun them when they have their racial buff up, so they don't get to use it and die.

    About the chain stun (frog kiss etc.).

    -I think it's a good idea to make the game less RNG-luck-based in PvP when it comes to CCs. It's not very common, but it does get annoying to lose because you can't do anything for multiple rounds. However adding a cool-down to these abilities, is not the answer. Simply re-work the way resilience works, so it can't be abused.
    -The scaling damage works fine in my opinion, and if you swap the pet, all the damage gets reset, so that problem is already solved.

    About the AoE(s).
    -I have no strong opinion about this. Some are ok when you can't hit the front line pet, but I wouldn't count on them as the main ability. But some are indeed quite strong and do hurt if you encounter 3x of the same pet that has those hard hitting AoE-abilities. However these strong hitting abilities usually have a fairly long CD to compensate it.

    Lastly, Graves.

    -I'm somewhat saddened that Graves is getting so many nerfs, I don't mind the ability swap however. The reason is because Graves was the pet that took the most time to get and even though it did introduce me to a new cool game (Heroes of the Storm), it still felt like a rip off in a way, specially now that you are listing these nerfs. After all, you can only own 1 Graves! It's not like you can form a team of 3x Graves, similarly as the Weebomination, which is far more annoying and dull strategy!

    PS.

    I can't say I'm eager with pet battles right now, since I reached my 1000 pet cap (made a thread about it). And until then, I just have to hold back, till the cap gets raised, since I don't like to play just to see I can't acquire any more new pets because of the cap. Increase the Maximum pet cap first!!
    We have a few updates to share, feedback is welcome!

  • Cleave damage reduced by 25% (no longer has a 1 round cooldown).
  • Dev note: We heard your concerns about adding a cooldown to cleave and agreed that this felt like a better solution.

  • Shell Armor duration reduced from 3 rounds to 2.
  • Dev note: Shell armor was very powerful compared to other flat damage reduction abilities, this should bring it more in line with them.

  • The damage bonus from Howl now only affects one attack.
  • Pandaren Water Spirit's Whirlpool and Geyser now share the same ability slot.
  • Dev note: This is our first iteration at disarming the Howl Bomb strategy in PvE, which has proven to be very powerful in too many situations. The goal is to make PvE battles more interesting and encourage the use of a wide variety of pets.
    More or less on the topic:

    My sub rogue's legion ST dps and AoE dps is somewhere between Graves and Onyxian Whelpling. Any planned changes upcoming on the next build or any time in the future. The lack of blizzard reply on the topic is getting really disturbing
    21/04/2016 10:40Posted by Aerythlea
  • The damage bonus from Howl now only affects one attack.
  • Pandaren Water Spirit's Whirlpool and Geyser now share the same ability slot.
  • Dev note: This is our first iteration at disarming the Howl Bomb strategy in PvE, which has proven to be very powerful in too many situations. The goal is to make PvE battles more interesting and encourage the use of a wide variety of pets.


    Awh, but it was so satisfying to see people use these, and then just watch the log fill up with the word 'Missed' because you used Portal with your Zeradar.
  • The damage bonus from Howl now only affects one attack.
  • Could you clarify what 1 attack means . Is flurry(attack enemy 1-3 times) considered 1 attack , or it will buff only the first hit . Will it work with dots ? For instance if you have lined multiple dots (agony, corrosion , Acidic Goo ets), will just one tick of the first dot do full damage ?

    Wouldn`t a better solution be to just make Howl a cap based spell . Like Howl now prevents a pet from taking more than 60% of their health in one round .
    21/04/2016 10:40Posted by Aerythlea
  • Cleave damage reduced by 25% (no longer has a 1 round cooldown).


  • This kills the Weeb as a competitive pet, and for the Weebroom strat, just as surely as the 1-round CD. It is less obvious, though, and I don't have a lot of sympathy for the Weeb.

    21/04/2016 10:40Posted by Aerythlea
  • Shell Armor duration reduced from 3 rounds to 2.
  • Dev note: Shell armor was very powerful compared to other flat damage reduction abilities, this should bring it more in line with them.


    I don't see a better option for a nerf without turning Shell Armor into Trihorn Shield.

    21/04/2016 10:40Posted by Aerythlea
  • The damage bonus from Howl now only affects one attack.
  • Pandaren Water Spirit's Whirlpool and Geyser now share the same ability slot.


  • Ouch! NO!

    I appreciate the desire to encourage the use of a wider variety of pets. I do. But this is just wrong.

    For definiteness, I will refer to The Howlbomb as the classic original Geyser->Whirlpool->Swap->Howl combo. It does not necessarily include Surge of Power.

    I will make two separate points: one about The Howlbomb and the other more generally about Howl.

    1. The Howlbomb

    The Howlbomb is fun. I remember my glee in the early days on Pandaria when I first tried it, and it opened up the Beasts of Fable for me.

    I'm a jaded old battler now, with only two teams left that still use The Howlbomb, but it's still fun.

    The Howlbomb is not inherently overpowered. Sure, it does ~1800 damage in one round, but it takes four rounds to set up. Four whole rounds, on any of which the strategy can be disrupted. Four whole rounds. A P/P Starlette does that in three.

    I would argue that The Howlbomb was an answer to Boss pets that are essentially unfair, and have to be taken down by cheesing either a Howlbomb or a Bleed & Stampede strat, and the solution to the overuse of Howlbomb is to stop making feature battles from single Boss pets that are vulnerable to it.

    I acknowledge that the two adds in Tanaan were an attempt to make Howlbomb ineffective there, but that was miscalculated, and didn't achieve its aim. Even if it did, that didn't matter, since an Anklerender alone does the same job, and is again a single strategy that beats all of the Terrors.

    2. Howl

    Howl in itself is not any kind of problem, and removing it - which is what you are doing in making it affect only one attack - will break the foxes and wolves that use it. No more Howl-Flurry-Flurry? No. This is not a good answer.

    .

    If you really feel you must "do something", then I would suggest looking at the Surge of Power on Chrominius as the follow-up to The Howlbomb.
    Grainné, honestly, I don't think leaving the Surge of Power out of your Howlbomb calculations is fair, as you know full well it's a key part of the "combo", particularly as far as boss pets are concerned!

    Besides, one could also argue that while a Starlette can pull equally insane damage numbers, they don't come with a built-in stun/root. In fact, even if the boss resilience didn't stop the Starlette from dealing its full damage, lacking the stun and the follow-up finisher from Surge of Power would mean that things like Dos-Ryga or Chi-Chi would still get the best of you.

    Oh, and if we took Surge of Power into account, we'd be talking about 3000+ damage in 5 rounds, which tips the scales further in favor of Howlbomb. Not that I like with the Starlette's insane burst, anyway :p

    In my opinion, Howlbomb is neither fun nor fine; and I could say the same about Black Claw "strats". Universal counters that require zero thought are not the kind of challenge I'd seek in any game :)

    That said, the nerf to Howl is stupid; and while I can understand where they are going with the PWS ability swap (same as what they did to Graves) they should probably focus on other ways to prevent Howlbomb on bosses if it's that much of a problem.
    I have only read the blue posts, so sorry if this has already been mentioned. Can we, please, get a round limit for when pets don't die or some other decent and reasonable fix for stalemates? It's not pleasant to concede when you know you are not going to lose and it's also not pleasant to sit there for hours waiting for the opponent to pass out. I personally enjoy healing teams but sometimes both players counter each other. And I think that the game is more fun when you can win with your skill and choices and not with your normally irrelevant willpower.

    Also could you fix stone form bug with Grotesque? It currently only works properly under Arcane Storm and it's sad because it's a unique ability on a pet that has potential.
    Vakeetah, we differ on a couple of nonsubstantive points: my delineation of the core of Howlbomb, and whether it's fun. I stand by both of those, but they are not central, so I don't want to derail onto them. We both know what we mean, and I concede that Howlbomb can't continue being fun if you're doing it 15 times a day.

    We agree that breaking Howl is very very bad.

    We agree that "Universal counters that require zero thought" are very very bad.

    In researching this, I looked up wow-petguide.com for a compendium of strats. Since I rarely use Howlbomb any more, I was shocked by how many non-tamer battles in Legion were cheesed by some variant of Howlbomb.
    8 of 15 Menagerie battles
    12 of 15 Tanaan battles

    Which is the problem: Howlbomb, or the concept of a single boss pet fight?

    Full teams of three opponents are not vulnerable to Howlbomb. I believe that the two random adds to each Terror in Tanaan were intended to counter Howlbombs, but that just didn't work. A choice of two non-Legendary but well-chosen specific adds, together with some RNG/AI in the moves, would solve the problem here.

    I thought about how a single "boss pet" with close to predefined moves can be made resistant to Howlbomb tactics, and they cases where they have been.
    - the RNG-interrupt counter, as used by Kafi and Mirecroak, where the boss uses an ability that has a chance to stun, and thus disrupt the timing of Howlbomb
    - the rooting counter, as used by Ka'wi the Gorger
    - the insta-kill counter, as used by Eleanor (but can be avoided with a sacrificial first pet)
    - RNG moves, such as used by No-No and Ti'un, can reduce the chance of success enough to make Howlbomb impractcal
    - A Cleanse, like Consume Magic, would disrupt Whirlpool/Geyser. I think some battle has that, but can't remember which.

    There are other possibilities for ad hoc boss buffs:
    - The "Boss" (50% reduced damage) buff was added in MoP. "Reduces all damage taken by 50%. Boss pets cannot be dealt more than 35% of their maximum health in one attack." If we changed that to "35% of their maximum health in one round" we'd have a pretty good mitigation.
    - "Immune to debuffs" is another potentially mitigating Boss aura for Howl and Stampede
    - "Automatically wards after first attack in a round"
    - "Stuns all Elementals that engage". Ridiculous, yes, but not much more ridiculous than "Iron Thread" or "Boss".

    I would also recall that the first iteration of Menagerie battles were not vulnerable to Howlbomb. It was only after the nerfs that Howlbomb became practical.

    I believe that these facts establish that Boss battles are not necessarily vulnerable to Howlbomb.

    I also note that 3-pet battes, in the Menagerie and against Tamers, are not cheesed by Howlbomb. In such cases, it might be used as a part of the strat for some battles, but not many, and even then, it will not be a one-shot.

    Changes to the PWS, which might include a slot swap, or a change in Geyser from 3 rounds to 2 rounds, might be considered, but I feel this should be done only in conjunction with a change in the construction of Boss battles. Breaking Howl is far too much.
    Hello back the chocolate forums. ;)

    As there is already a pretty stacked discussion, including another wall of text on WPets, I'll just repost my most recent comment from the Ara's blog:

    I'm a bit messy about that, trying to understand various perspectives and working with them.
    Still:
    1. Shattering Defenses is used to bypass the elite buff what explains both Howlbomb and Black Flock popularity. Find a way to address that, then think about any nerfs.
    2. Don't touch Howl anyway.
    3. PWS is insane on its own.
    4. As someone has told [someone on US forums, but Gráinne covered it perfectly here :3], single pets, including the Celestials, are just prone to bursts, so see the point 1 once more! :P

    I'm all for maintaining a creative discussion, of course, just really don't want to write everything at once. :)

    Ataraxia:
    I have only read the blue posts, so sorry if this has already been mentioned. Can we, please, get a round limit for when pets don't die or some other decent and reasonable fix for stalemates? (…)

    Also could you fix stone form bug with Grotesque? It currently only works properly under Arcane Storm and it's sad because it's a unique ability on a pet that has potential.

    Ah, yes, these both were already addressed. :) But nothing wrong with that if something actually needs to be repeated.
    Pet Battles. Wasted resources.
    Not something that you'd expect from an RP realm player. ;-)

    Maybe it's just a wording issue, but Chew ability says as follows:
    "On the next round, you will deal 370 Critter damage in addition to your next attack."

    However, it deals damage even if you pass or heal that round.

    (On the other hand, it's said about dealing damage from the backrow too, and because currently no pet can have DoTs and Chew at once, the backrow thing would be only a pure theory if we follow that "next attack" literally.)

    While my entries seem very niche and sort of minor, at least I'm sure that I've already mentioned them.
    Sometimes I just can't remember if I've sent them via bug report… :x
    And I want to tell the others: "You're not alone with that". :)

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