Legion Spec Swap Cost

General
Currently on Live we need a resource to swap between talents.
It's a pointless system that does nothing other than wasting inventory space but luckily for us Blizzard is finally fixing this in Legion by removing any cost to swapping talents and sadly they've decided to immediately reintroduce this problem by adding a cost to spec swapping instead.

Adding a cost to spec swapping is a bad idea because it only adds annoyance and frustration where it doesn't need to exist.

Imagine a simple scenario like this:
You're playing Elemental Shaman but you loot a nice item for your enhancement spec and you want to add it to your saved Enhancement set.
This would require you to swap to your Enhancement set and equip said item and then hit save but since your Elemental spec can not dual wield you need to swap to the correct spec as well meaning if you want to continue on as Elemental after you'd need to pay for 2 spec swaps just to do something as simple as editing your equipment manager.
So you end up with a few options;
1) Pay the double cost to get back to your original spec
2) Pay one cost and continue on as the other spec
3) hold on to the item until you need to actually use the spec (and potentially forget you had the item)
4) Exclude weapons from your sets in the equipment manager (Which would cause another minor annoyance in having to manually equip weapons after every swap)
5) Don't bother with the item and just stick to one spec exclusively

All of these options are bad because the player ends up trying to find ways around the system if he/she consideres the cost too high which will only hamper their excitement of getting a new item.

Another realistic scenario would be:
You're in a random dungeon and a tank or healer leaves.
On Live you'd swap over to help your group to continue until the spot is properly replaced but with a cost attached the higher this cost the less likely a person decides to swap over since they'd have to pay again to swap back as well after the player has been replaced.
So even if someone could swap over if the cost is too high they might not which would halt the progress of the dungeon and hamper enjoyment to the people who have to stand around and wait but even worse is that this could slow down the queue system as a whole since dungeons are completed somewhat slower and tanks/healers are more often drawn into groups already in progress (meaning less new groups can start until those dungeons are complete)

The end result is that the swapping most likely ends up with something that's easy to obtain and relatively cheap to try and limit/prevent these situations effectively giving us back the books we currently use to swap talents taking up inventory space and even if they decide to add the currency for this to the currency tab it wouldn't really help much, in fact in that case it makes even less sense to add any cost at all since it's just an invisible stock you refill every now and again (effectively this is just gold then).
So nothing has really changed and it's a pointless addition.

There really isn't a way to add a cost to spec swapping that doesn't cause the same issues and frustration.
I understand for a lot of people this might be a completely passive and invisible part of gameplay but I'm someone who really disliked the cost for talent/glyph swapping since it was nothing other than a waste of bagspace we had to go out of our way to purchase and I don't consider this effective or good game design.

Some people will bring up the argument that these costs need to exist because of "Class Identity" and that a cost somehow brings the player close to their spec (Personally I don't really buy this argument) but now that specs in Legion are more diverse than ever with most specs receiving visual overhauls on their abilities to make them stand out more is this really still valid to you?

I guess personally I just don't understand the logic behind fixing a problem only to immediately put it back in right next to where it used to be and I really hope Blizzard rethink this.
I believe it is actually solving a problem. Blizzard said that all specs will be viable, in fact looking at most talent trees, it seems that talents evolve around soloing, single target and aoe. Thus a frost mage is as viable as an arcane mage. Most probably they will be doing similar DPS as well. This will help the player to choose a spec and remain with it. It is fair for someone that likes survival hunter to play it instead of switching to bm or marksman, in order to compete with others.

Also Blizzard mentioned that healers and tanks will have better abilities to level. They will increase their DPS. As most have realised Blizzard are changing most things to resambile Vanilla WOW. It was very nice to see the differences in raids.

The guild I was in used to take 5 of each class, thus there would be 5 rogues, 5 priests etc. Back then we had a mixture of all 3 specs ( it did not matter). Nowadays all rogues will probably be subtlety if single target fight.

On the whole I think the changes are great.
Much as I'd love them to balance stuff so that I would be able to play my classes using DPS specs that I like (although, really, why would they succeed now? ;-), I am mildly worried about the extra costs to providing utility to your raid by having a tank, or healing offspec. As if doing the extra artifact work, and maintaining extra gear sets wasn't enough.

I hope they can balance it in a way that it will be no more painful than repairs, or purchasing tomes. I really don't want to be regularly playing 3 toons to be able to experience all roles. 2 is time consuming enough.
What they can do is to make each class use the same attributes for each spec. Meaning that all rogue specs use agility mastery and haste while a warlock uses intellect crit and mastery. At least like this you do not need different gear and enchants, you only have to upgrade the weapon
16/03/2016 15:26Posted by Vassal
I believe it is actually solving a problem. Blizzard said that all specs will be viable, in fact looking at most talent trees, it seems that talents evolve around soloing, single target and aoe. Thus a frost mage is as viable as an arcane mage. Most probably they will be doing similar DPS as well. This will help the player to choose a spec and remain with it. It is fair for someone that likes survival hunter to play it instead of switching to bm or marksman, in order to compete with others.


That is implying Blizzard will stick to all specs as they are and don't decide off the bat to change them mid-expansion like they did for Warlocks in MoP and WoD.

They always tweak specs so I doubt people will be sticking to the same spec throughout the expansion, stating all specs will have similar DPS while looking at the state of the Alpha and the history of specs and their damage throughout content patches makes me sincerely doubt their statement on that.

16/03/2016 15:26Posted by Vassal
As most have realised Blizzard are changing most things to resambile Vanilla WOW. It was very nice to see the differences in raids.


Vanilla WoW was unbalanced and you could only choose one spec.
Playing a Retri pally was useless, as a druid you could only play Resto to be invited to raids, etc.

If Legion is going to resemble Vanilla then be ready for the cluster!@#$ of unbalanced gameplay.
16/03/2016 17:58Posted by Vassal
What they can do is to make each class use the same attributes for each spec. Meaning that all rogue specs use agility mastery and haste while a warlock uses intellect crit and mastery. At least like this you do not need different gear and enchants, you only have to upgrade the weapon


Not sure if your just stupid or trolling
16/03/2016 17:58Posted by Vassal
What they can do is to make each class use the same attributes for each spec. Meaning that all rogue specs use agility mastery and haste while a warlock uses intellect crit and mastery. At least like this you do not need different gear and enchants, you only have to upgrade the weapon

Then we might as well just remove all secondary stats so it's only the primary that counts. Or take the step further and remove all stats completely and scale based on the gears ilvl. And remove specs entirely so you just play the class and not your spec.

Or keep it as it is. That you have different specs work in different ways with different stat prio. It may suck to have multiple specs that can use the same gear, but doesn't have the same stats prio. But it can make the feel of each spec different (beside the abilities).
Oh my god... Pls tell me why to do that.. I mean, i change spec all the damn time on my lock, maybe more often than i change my talents.. For little things, like checking the stats in one spec and then the other one's, to read the tooltips, to check little details, or to burst down ads on demo, to cleave/st on affl, even for fun just to take a small taste from my offspec! Pls blizzard DONT DO THAT!
16/03/2016 15:26Posted by Vassal
The guild I was in used to take 5 of each class, thus there would be 5 rogues, 5 priests etc. Back then we had a mixture of all 3 specs ( it did not matter). Nowadays all rogues will probably be subtlety if single target fight.

On the whole I think the changes are great.
There's always going to be a best spec. People naturally gravitate towards the best spec nowadays, regardless of what they enjoy, but is that really a problem? Making it cost an additional fee to play optimally for your raid boss to boss is counter productive overall. Specs are cornered into niches, you can't deny that.

You're (generally) a waste of a raid spot if you're fighting a cleave-oriented boss fight in a spec that has awful cleave potential when a different spec on the same class could be better suited. With them wanting to add a cost to changing specs to make players feel less inclined to change specs (i think this was their reasoning?), it's just punishing you for being proactive and making yourself useful for the raid.

Not to mention to do that you will have to grind up two artifact weapons to be raid ready, then when you're there you're paying this fee as well?

How is this change good?
17/03/2016 01:34Posted by Zaenux
There's always going to be a best spec.

And a druids best spec would be?
I mean... druids have 4 different spec that fills 4 different roles. How can you pick one and stick with only that?

For a class with only one role, then yeah. A mage is always ranged dps, a rogue always melee dps. Fair enough. But such is not the case for most classes.

If the cost to swap spec is a sum that matters, then it's useless having all 3 or 4 specs "avaliable". Because they are not really. If the cost is low, then why bother putting it there? We'd be better off with the current system - carry a stack or reagents we get for free from missions.
I respec as I wish and as is needed. No cost will stop me from that (unless it's ridiculous) and I don't think a cost like the current Tomes does anything positive here, it's just something that's there and I don't think/care about it.

Then again sometimes you run out of Tomes and have to get some / ask for some. Maybe this moment of inability bears a small reminder that swapping shouldn't just be taken for granted.
Problem isn't even in fact that it will be expensive:
- tl;dr - http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/17612033159?page=2#22
(some words in russian http://eu.battle.net/wow/ru/forum/topic/10271667325?page=9#170 )
Problem is that current talent system (and they are not in classic sense of talent, it's just perks) is generally stupid things like this
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20744214224#7
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20744154591
├► http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20744295548
└► http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20744205740
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20743974212
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20743844239
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20744294726
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20744104974
controversion http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20744014249
are aftermath part of your new perk system
System worked and was justified only if there were trees http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20744214224?page=7#124 and player could create something "hybrid"/universal/specific ( http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/17611491478?page=1#11 , http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20745625180 ) of a set of points that he had. But now (in new) we are faced with a system which simply doesn't have specializations (+ talents went full only specific), but only classes (there is no anything in common now between two specializations of class (it's not for gameplay, but only for set of spells)), but still there is no "talent-trees", there is only perks (which aren't clear for what we even get in terms of role-play http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20742964626 | http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/17612011921 | http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17613694064 )
Fee for "class" change in general shouldn't be charged because for the game it's forbidden to change it ;)

Btw, talent - this is what you get from mother nature, and you have work for open (developing) it in a certain direction, and then develop it more, but ability - something that you can learn somewhere (also there wasn't any "unnecessary stats" before and even spirit and intellect give something for warriors ;) http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/17611302729 )

All right, let's remove jokes aside.
Let then see, what class and what specialization is:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/17611551590#6
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20742965012
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20743615401
http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17612071780
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748205230
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20747816690
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748666713
You're mage (for example) and you have ability to control elements. You have a basic set of skills that you know. You get a skill point with each level, which use to growth in a certain direction (of specializing you) => some of your abilities start to do more damage, some evolve, but you - still a mage, and you can the same what you did before. How deep in every direction you will be specialized depends on you (I can write the same chain, and about hunters and about other classes). In short, you see what is a "class" (a basic set of abilities (active/passive) and what is "specialization" (process of character development in either direction). There wasn't even such thing as "spec" - but were "builds" that using talents of all 3 trees if player wanted (many of them even have their own names).
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/16732743164#7
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20745544772

What Blizzard doing now: GC http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17613725689
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20747815273
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20749708589
http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17614262446
http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17614511970
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20749806623
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20419274602?page=18#354
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20743644606#7
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/17612043379#6
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20745614773#9
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20745707313#8
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20747614988#11
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20743094298
http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17613113011
http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17613181984
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20745254812
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20745044733
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20745064867
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20749106749
they removing foundations of class and make each specialized as separate class, with all basic abilities are divided into 3 parts and are distributed proportionally between each "new class"-s, and in further development of the character of their use is generally loses all meaning (most of them will be talents in Legion, so won't available to every spec). Yes, with each of the "class" they give unique perks. And all this stuff re distributed between two (PvP, PvE) panels (no no, in any case it shouldn't be called a "tree"). So... all your (as class+spec) spells were divided into 6 parts, and for "great loss of a standard set of capabilities within specialization" could be somehow possible to compensate they had to add nearly as much as already left, but therefore added absolutely insufficient. http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2015280-Prune-3-0-should-be-even-bigger-imho?p=40985240&viewfull=1#post40985240
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2019769-Losing-interest-in-every-class
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2097995-Why-are-they-reworking-Hunter/
So, when they saying this http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20743094425 they are either hypocrites or not competent: go run+spamonebutton+proc >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRIgeA5iHaI | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sSX9GqBYvM << - this is their every class(=spec)-fantasy now. http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20752245111
└► http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20752386029
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20752405875
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20752356415
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20749017474
( http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20749047523 )
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20747564688#14
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/17612921302
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20743094425#7
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20749778501
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20743334662
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748184803
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747705582
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20749888329
And even this http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20745254501 trying avoid "How much?" question.
As the result...
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20749166904

What's correct and what's not in this case:
1) What is wrong: remove class foundation (so
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20749828543
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20742454142
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20742905340
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20744235712
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20746874887
if hunter knows how to use traps, ranged weapons and work with animals - each specialization should it be able to http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20743775419 (of course, in varying degrees, but must be able to, because it is foundation)) and therefore it become so that number of resultant abilities will "less". (you want melee - you go develop another class/spec - there are no more room (only 3) for their specialization now, or you give some melee for every spec http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20743034907 )
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/17610902172#3
2) What is wrong: remove unique class's mechanics http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20745726596 (whether system of runes / forces, stances, shapeshifting, auras / seals, traps, pets, etc. (btw, never see eclipse-system for bumis ( http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20752405875?page=2#post-24 ) and chakra-mech for h.priests ( http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20752405875#post-10 ) as something bad, just as very good fit and unique part of the spec) and pardon me, but removing spirit just ridiculous http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20749115758 ), because they also make up foundation of a class (void-priests/ex sh.priests-"vampires" saying hello >> youtube.com/watch?v=Crh82rYweIk <<).
3) Another reason (sentimental) for not doing all this mess: http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20742794899#3
4) What is correct (since they do not want trees http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20744144241#13 because they really don't like hybrids), and could just make them "wider" rather than "deeper" and rather than to cut them in Cataclysm and generally removed in Pandaria): make unique perks of each of specializations for each levels briquette.

Addition:
http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17614482631#post-2
http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17613321685
Dividing PvP and PvE perks http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20743644606 | http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20749808310 in "different ways of development" of character you are opening a Pandora's box ( http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20420603779 | http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20743785478 | http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17613443480 - you'll get much more such topics lately), because this looks good only because it's new, but in fact only will bring more problems:
1) if you let them in open world, and in PvE zones - you make them desirable also for PvE players http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17613431207 (they will have to deal with PvP players in open world and it will also be useful for PvE events), and if you make it easy, then you'll go this way =>
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20742565007#6
http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17612873631 PvP?
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20747807014 +1
2) if you make them available only to BG and arenas, you invoke wrath of PvP players who already don't like prospect of going out into open world and do PvE http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17610781156#8 (with artifacts and lacking of significance pvp gear http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748035240 | http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17613432174#post-3 they already will have to), but if you make process of leveling and PvE easy and fast, you will get a second WoD.
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20745044446
3) but you find even more "original" http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20742945378 version of solution (mix negatives); and it's goes with... some PvP perks have to keep on hotkeys (while using them only for PvP/when you were/been by "hit" another player), thereby clogging up the place in spell bar => thus (without PvP perks like control, dispel, save, etc.) dungeons pass would simplified to 2-buttons rotation
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20743726245
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20749759050
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20749788539
(and hence, you weren't heed any topic we had previously with game mechanics discussion http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/17289019688?page=2#24 )
You don't have slightest logical rationale to take away functionality of the class, which it has already earned with sweat and blood (learned) - it violates the principle of the integrity of gaming universe. Thus we return to question about destruction of integrity and closure of the game world/process in favor of "session" (cutting) gameplay.

Yes, something needs to be changed, but not like this...>> imgur.com/8TDIVM8.gif <<
Blizzard, I really want you to know - you are wrong!
(But, unfortunately, only time will show something, and you really aren't have a lot of it)

And now about current thread %)
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/17611303190
I don't see any logical explanation in current position of taking money for it, they have spoiled interest of main/secondary specializations with presence of artifacts.
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20743705733
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20742694923

\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
So... http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/17611390979
I suppose gold-cost issue is solved (or, if more precisely, redirected to another new).

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

ps. Sorry for long post.

>> mmo-champion.com/content/5918-Gamescom-Developer-Q-A-Warcraft-Movie-Additional-Scene <<
Ability Pruning

You prune a plant to guide its growth in new directions that are hopefully more aesthetically pleasing. It is removing stuff to make room to add new stuff.
One of the themes of Legion class design is to emphasize strengths and weaknesses of classes.
A lot of the things that were removed were removed after looking back at classes over the years where the class designers had taken the easy route. The team was coming up with a new set of abilities for an expansion or needed new talents and asked themselves what that class needed. If a class wasn't very mobile, they gave them a talent row with mobility options. Players thought this was amazing and what they always wanted, but that led to a lot of homogenization.
In a world where no one has weaknesses there are also no strengths.
In Legion there is now room to add interesting utility, especially for specs that feel like they don't bring much beyond their throughput.
Bring the player, not the class was a reaction to the hyper regimented raid structure of Burning Crusade where buffs were party based and synergy was more important than anything else.
The team would like to get back to a place where if you are a PuG leader, you are looking at your raid comp and saying, "We could really use a Hunter, let's look for a good hunter", rather than "Let's look for any ranged DPS, especially the flavor of the month that is 2% better and thus is the only viable one". Obviously this isn't the case literally right now, but it is what the team is thinking about and would like to move towards over the course of patches and future content.
These are the most annoying and stupid things I ever hear. How is this even connected with all (let's begin from the end of LK) that you have done?
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http://eu.battle.net/wow/ru/forum/topic/17168346637?page=5#94

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