Can we please, for one expansion....

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14/04/2016 15:17Posted by Jito
14/04/2016 15:14Posted by Forcemyway
What is forcemyway????

Whatever you make her to be.

Except I can't, because regardless of what I make her to be in my head, it won't be reflected IN THE SLIGHTEST ingame. Forcemyway can't be a maverick, or a femme fatale, or an outlaw, or a religious fanatic, or extremely smart, or extremely smelly, or extremely kind-hearted. What I can be, is the guy who makes up the tactics before we pull a boss. Or the guy who can always be heard with his hand down a bag of chips on vent, or the guy who is always filling the gbank with mats.
So even though I am "that hero" ingame, I can't be a character ingame. I can only be a character as a person who controls an ingame avatar.

14/04/2016 15:18Posted by Lelantós
14/04/2016 15:14Posted by Forcemyway
Omg are you just pretending at this point?


Seriously calm down before you hurt yourself you have no right to tell others what they can or can not be just as they can not to you ,at the end of the day its a game made for us to escape from real life for a while if people want to be a hero let them if you do not want to be one so be it .Carry on with your world and let the others do the same .


Well woopty doo, people could very well pretend to be heroes back in vanilla too, except now I can't pretend to NOT be a hero.

Anyway it's time for me to leave this thread, it's gotten too heated and I seem to be arguing with people who don't have a grasp on basic game design and why an mmorpg is different from an rpg which is really sad and frustrating and I can't bear to look at it anymore.
14/04/2016 15:26Posted by Forcemyway
Anyway it's time for me to leave this thread


Please do as name calling and insulting people is not what people want in this thread ,i am afraid you take the game far to serious and need to relax and just enjoy YOUR own game :)
Except I can't, because regardless of what I make her to be in my head, it won't be reflected IN THE SLIGHTEST ingame. Forcemyway can't be a maverick, or a femme fatale, or an outlaw, or a religious fanatic, or extremely smart, or extremely smelly, or extremely kind-hearted.

I think it's more about applying characteristics to your character after the fact, rather than before it.

For example, remember that quest in The Borean Tundra where you have to "interrogate" some evil guy by bascially electrocuting him? If you do the quest, then your character goes through that interrogation experience as dictated by Blizzard's story narrative.

But in terms of what motivations and thoughts your character has about the whole experience though, that's entirely up to you.

Think about it as if you are writing a story in third person present tense, but Metzen is standing right next to you and dictates the events the character in the story has to go through. But Metzen doesn't really care about all the emotional stuff, and the character's motives, so he lets you decide when it comes to that.

That's how story in WoW works.
I absolutely agree, but its too late for at least the next 2 years since in Legion we're already the chosen one, that is the whole expansion storyline laid out infront of us, it's annoying.
14/04/2016 15:41Posted by Jito
Except I can't, because regardless of what I make her to be in my head, it won't be reflected IN THE SLIGHTEST ingame. Forcemyway can't be a maverick, or a femme fatale, or an outlaw, or a religious fanatic, or extremely smart, or extremely smelly, or extremely kind-hearted.

I think it's more about applying characteristics to your character after the fact, rather than before it.

For example, remember that quest in The Borean Tundra where you have to "interrogate" some evil guy by bascially electrocuting him? If you do the quest, then your character goes through that interrogation experience as dictated by Blizzard's story narrative.

But in terms of what motivations and thoughts your character has about the whole experience though, that's entirely up to you.

Think about it as if you are writing a story in third person present tense, but Metzen is standing right next to you and dictates the events the character in the story has to go through. But Metzen doesn't really care about all the emotional stuff, and the character's motives, so he lets you decide when it comes to that.

That's how story in WoW works.


Thanks for providing a great example of how we can involve ourselves in the story of an mmorpg without having it revolve around a single player character and all of them at the same time.

And in this example, we're still not a character INGAME, so you're pretty much agreeing with me. We can't decide that we're not going to electrocute the guy, or try to interrogate him in a different manner (nor should we be able to), all we can do is /cry or /cheer afterwards.
And that's all ok by me.
14/04/2016 15:26Posted by Forcemyway
mmorpg is different from an rpg
The difference is structural, in terms of game systems, gameplay, interface, etc.
But they're both RPG, aka Role Playing Game, for which character story and progression are staples.
Therefore, denying story progression is not the way to go.
From peasant -> to peasant = no fun for me, sorry.
14/04/2016 15:46Posted by Aenjin
14/04/2016 15:26Posted by Forcemyway
mmorpg is different from an rpg
The difference is structural, in terms of game systems, gameplay, interface, etc.
But they're both RPG, aka Role Playing Game, for which character story and progression are staples.

[/quote]
Actually it's the other way around.
MMORPGs and RPGs are similar in terms of gameplay, interface, structure.
But in an mmorpg the focus is in the world and social experiences between players. Any story and character progression is left to the NPC main characters like leaders of factions or important villains.
In an RPG the story is more tightly tied to the player character because he is also the protagonist and all game experiences are presented through him so that the player can experience them first hand, unlike an mmo where it is experienced simultaneously by thousands of players.
This is among the prior things that I...really really hate about wow's recent lore

We used to be heroes, sure, but of our faction, not of the world
And that's whant we want, sure, recognition, but not "omg saviour of world"
Of course we are heroes... We are the biggest heroes Azeroth ever saw.

We pretty much saved the world several times from destruction! We killed Gods, Titans, Aspects, etc. We are pretty much the strongest beings in the world of Warcraft universe (if we take raid teams into account).

It would be very weird to be in the middle of a Legion war and no one knowing who we were... Of course everybody knows who we are, we are legends pretty much.

Now, i can understand that you don't like the idea, but the fact that we are heroes remains.

Maybe in a future expansion we will get to a undiscovered world or whatever that no one knows us.

In the Legendaries part, i fully agree with you. It's a bad idea.

As for the Artifact's, i think they are cool. Why couldn't we have those weapons. Characters that did WAY less than us, had them.
IMO, the best immersion was during Wrath.You were a hero, but not THE hero, just part of an army.There were other elite warriors fighting with you, but you still couldn't shake the feeling you're on the losing side.

I mean, even Arthas acknowledged in his RP that you were part of an army, and not a single super strong hero.

As for the Legendaries, many people that played during Vanilla/TBC will say they sucked, cuz it was %based, meaning a guild can go on for 6+ months without a single legendary, while another can get a piece each week.It's more about finding a good middle ground here.
14/04/2016 13:52Posted by Shandera
We are not the chosen one (and never have been), but at the same time we no longer can be the nameless hero and the reason is simply.

When vanilla started we were just random people of the world, but we managed to complete nearly impossible feats, which made us begin to be renown. This continued in TBC and into wrath. By the end of wrath we are known as the champions of azeroth (and also champions of our faction). This continue even more in Cata when we defend the world once more. In MoP we are chosen as a member of the elite team to travel to Pandaria to secure the land. And in WoD we then became the commander of our own base because of out past feats and status. And it will be the same in Legion, we will be the leaders of our class orders as we are considered one of the strongest of our class.

Now on another point. With lots of people run around with the same weapon and being the leaders of the same class order, then that is only a gameplay feature and not a story feature. This have always been the case and will always be.


Well said.
We are essentially on par with Commander Taylor at this point (or were, anyway). We both rose through the ranks, we both got given more and more important missions, we both went to draneor under instruction of the Alliance to build and secure a foothold; although admittedly one of us was a lot better at it than the other. We are on the same level as a not-really-that-important NPC, we are certainly not 'chosen ones'.
If you want to be a nameless person go back to Vanilla, I heard there is a good server that exists just for people like you who want to enjoy those days.

Edit: Also despite this obvious joke I then realised even in Vanilla when you killed raid bosses you were hailed by Stormwind and Orgrimmar and people in Sithius as "heroes"

So yea.....when exactly were we not heroes?
I agree, I would love to be just a mercenary or whatever, instead of this guiding light/awesomeness that is everyones favorite hero (after Thrall, duh).

Though it won't happen, I'd love if we lost at some point. Of course we'd cripple the Legion enough that they cannot destroy our world, but that we ultimately lose. The weapons we had, would be destroyed, big important characters die and we start allover from a torn Azeroth.

The expansion after Legion would then almost be like WoW 2, we'd have to restart. A lot of things were lost, people, knowledge, schematics - you name it.
This conversation is intresting as many agreed that the questing during leveling in WoD was some of the best that Blizzard has made. People loved it, untill they hit max level.

So why is this an issue?

In any case, you're less a super hero in Legion. You're still like the champion of your order but you not THE champion so I guess it's more of a compromise?
It seems to be working out quite well and the center of the story seems to be characters like Sylvanas, Wrynn and so on.
14/04/2016 17:44Posted by Lisanna
Well said.
We are essentially on par with Commander Taylor at this point (or were, anyway). We both rose through the ranks, we both got given more and more important missions, we both went to draneor under instruction of the Alliance to build and secure a foothold; although admittedly one of us was a lot better at it than the other. We are on the same level as a not-really-that-important NPC, we are certainly not 'chosen ones'.


Commander Taylor didn't killed Ragnaros, didn't killed Nefarion, didn't kill the Old Gods, didn't stopped 2 scourge invasions, slaying Kel'thuzad and Arthas in the process, didn't killed important lore figures like Kael or Illedan, didn't killed Aspects or Titans, Didn't killed Archimonde - twice - etc etc...

Like it or not, we are heroes.
14/04/2016 17:49Posted by Itzamna
Commander Taylor didn't killed Ragnaros, didn't killed Nefarion, didn't kill the Old Gods, didn't stopped 2 scourge invasions, slaying Kel'thuzad and Arthas in the process, didn't killed important lore figures like Kael or Illedan, didn't killed Aspects or Titans, Didn't killed Archimonde - twice - etc etc...

Like it or not, we are heroes.


I didn't say we weren't heroes, but we are not for example 'Warriors of Light' from the FFXIV MMO. Our role within the story is as a high ranking official within our factions army/navy/fighting force/whatever; NOT the one man army goldenchild superhero of awesomeness.
Storywise we defeat enemies as part of a team. You as an individual did not defeat Arthas, you were just one of several soldiers backing up Tirion. You weren't some solo hero going up against Yogg-Saron; you were part of a large invading force laying siege to Ulduar. You did not kill Ragnaros in Cataclysm, you were, once again part of a force that ultimately drive him back before Malfurion et al finished him. You were not the solo slayer of Deathwing; you were part of an army fighting back in Dragonflight alongside thrall and the dragon aspects.

Now maybe Captain/Admiral/Commander Taylor wasn't a part of such prestigious teams as us, but he was placed on the same level as us in WoD when he was given the same title (Commander) and given the same mission. This was meant to show that once again, we are not some solo hero with the weight of our faction on our shoulders, but that we are simply a part of our faction. A very good part, and certainly a very famous part (hence why we can't be just some nameless adventurer), but still just a part, alongside all the NPCs and other heroes.
14/04/2016 17:49Posted by Itzamna
14/04/2016 17:44Posted by Lisanna
Well said.
We are essentially on par with Commander Taylor at this point (or were, anyway). We both rose through the ranks, we both got given more and more important missions, we both went to draneor under instruction of the Alliance to build and secure a foothold; although admittedly one of us was a lot better at it than the other. We are on the same level as a not-really-that-important NPC, we are certainly not 'chosen ones'.


Commander Taylor didn't killed Ragnaros, didn't killed Nefarion, didn't kill the Old Gods, didn't stopped 2 scourge invasions, slaying Kel'thuzad and Arthas in the process, didn't killed important lore figures like Kael or Illedan, didn't killed Aspects or Titans, Didn't killed Archimonde - twice - etc etc...

Like it or not, we are heroes.


We are heroes, but we don't need to be the gift of mankind, the chosen one.. In WOTLK we formed an elite force where we fought alongside Tirion Fordring, we were heroes but he was the hero of the hour and I prefer that model.

It makes a lot more sense since we cant all be the chosen one at the same time and yet we are, if we become elite heroes fighting alongside a more important single leader then it makes a better story for everyone. This isn't a single player game after all but now they are giving us single player stories, which is a shame.
14/04/2016 18:03Posted by Lisanna
NOT the one man army goldenchild superhero of awesomeness.


Neither i said we were...

We were always part of a team, but... He were there! We were backing up Tirion against Arthas, but it was the players that fought him in the end (alongside Tirion yes, but the rest of the army remained back)... Same as AQ and every instance. There is always an war effort, but in the end its the heroes (aka us) that do the heavy lifting. Even in Vanilla you would be treated as a hero when you would bring Ony head to the capital city.
Would be nice to be "an adventurer" again instead of a champion. This "chosen one" role is getting stale after a while.

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