[Legion PVP Mage Concerns and Appreciation Thread]

Mage
Hi everyone. This thread intends to summarise the mage PVP community's concerns on mage design in Legion as well as to provide positive feedback on welcome new changes.

You'll notice I don't have beta access and therefore cannot post on the beta forums. Still many of us are well enthusiastic about the new expansion, and like many, I keep up with new changes, watch videos, and read on the community's feedback. So please share your concerns and compliments to Blizzard's effort for our class in Legion!

Positive feedback (show Blizzard our appreciation for new design changes in Legion)
    - The change from Flurry to Frozen Orb is a significant improvement. While interesting, Frozen Orb was simply too clunky for Frost gameplay.
    - Fire is looking better than in MoP. Pyroblast is a lot more reliable and can be effectively chained. Firestarter and Flamecannon are well designed talents and there's significant benefit to casting Fireball instead of Scorch, which makes gameplay more interesting. Scorch is still useful and provides a movement speed buff.
    - Most people agree the Arcane design is looking very interesting. The extra mobility, coupled with the new Mage Armor and Greater Invisibility changes are likely to make the spec more fun and competitive.
    - Polymorph removing dots by default is very welcome and appeases all the concerns over the glyph removal.
    - Several of our PVP talents are looking great. Prismatic Cloak and Kleptomania promote skillful gameplay and will be appreciated by mages in general.
    - The level 75 (general) talent choices are fairly lackluster for PVP. With perhaps the exception of Frost Bomb, most talents feel clunky or unuseful outside of PVE.
    - The Combustion change is great - the old Combustion was simply not effective enough in PVP and was mostly used to reset Inferno Blast
    - Mark of Aluneth is now targeted, making it reliable in solo play. Kudos!


Generic concerns (not spec related)

Rune of Power
    - Talent is mandatory in competitive circumstances. 50% damage is simply too good to pass on, meaning this tier is not really talent *choice*
    - May cause balance issues by inflating our damage over a short time span, eventually leading to a nerf of our sustained damage
    - Does not allow us to chase a target, which makes us frequently dependent on stuns (which we do not have) in order to use it effectively. This limits our effective arena compositions
    - Suggestions: Making the other talents more competitive; increasing the radius, lowering the damage and cooldown

Melee mobility
    - Melee mobility seems to have increased across the board and generally speaking we are still unable to kite. Many feel kiting, rather than tanking, should define mages.
    - For example subtlety rogues, with the new Shadowstrike mechanic, stick to us like glue.
    - Frost particularly struggles on this point, while Fire has much better damage output on the move and Arcane can simply blink/displace more often
    - Burning Determination in its current state is mostly useless. It does not reward fake casting since it only procs when interrupted, and the protection it offers (with a useful time anywhere from 3 to 5 seconds for the school that was locked) will typically not achieve anything unless trained by 2 melee. Most specs don't have access to more than one interrupt within 8 secs.


Fire
    - The level 100 tier talent choices are still quite poor. Meteor seems like the only useful talent, but even that is a stretch. With a 3 sec activation time and split damage it becomes very situational. Lowering the activation time (e.g. to 1.5 sec) would make it far more reliable and maintain the desired flavour.
    - Pheonix's Flame feels underwhelming for our artifact ability. It now deals less damage than a Pyroblast and seems to be used as an alternative Fire Blast on the CGD. Still useful - just not very interesting.
    - Blast Wave is an iconic spell which is currently vastly overshadowded by Flame On. Perhaps try giving it a knockback and make it melee range again like in WotLK?
    - The loss of the Ignite snare is a concern. The only consistent way we have to apply a snare is flamestrike, which is quite clunky. Blast Wave is lasts 4 sec and represents a significant damage loss. Frostfire Bolt is also gone now. Can we get a snare on one of our abilities? At least a talent. [/li]


    Frost
    - The removal of Deep Freeze has a large range of consequences. Frost Mages are much weaker in solo PVP due to a lack of CC. Our primary means to land Polymorphs in arena is now gone. The spec now feels like a poorer version of the other two, as it doesn't have anything particularly going for it. Please give us at least a nerfed version of Deep Freeze or at least a reliable means to Polymorph a healer in arena.
    - Frost simply needs to stand and cast for too long in order to be effective. It has the lowest mobility of the 3 specs and without DF the CC is not enough to keep enemies at bay, making Frost a very niche spec in arena and dependent on a funky Glacial Spike playstyle.
    - Our snares have been nerfed. Frostbolt and Cone of Cold are now just 30%. Flurry has certainly improved on this, but we can hardly kite any melee spec effectively, which makes the spec a sitting stuck in solo situations. Please make at least Cone of Cold a 50-60% snare. Ideally increase the Frostbolt snare as well.
    - Deep Shatter and Frostbite being on the same PVP talent tier seems counter-intuitive. Deep Shatter can only be used with Freeze, which a) makes it incompatible with Lonely Winter and b) takes away a strong form of CC when used for damage.
    - The Burst of Cold talent needs a massive damage increase in order to be useful. Cone of Cold simply does too little damage for even a 600% damage increase to be useful for burst. Either increase Cone of Cold damage significantly or make this talent increase its damage by at least something like 1500%.


Arcane
    - Mana is likely to be an issue. While in PVE the mage can use Evocation (and get some good damage out of it at the end) in PVP Evocation is very easy to interrupt in many ways. Either add some improved mana regen in PVP or provide some form of protection for Evocation.
    - The spec is entirely dependent on a single school. It requires sitting still and casting, but getting locked means both our damage and mobility are locked down, making us sitting ducks.


Thanks for reading. Please share your concerns in a concise and objective way. And please also share what you DO like, since it is far too easy for Blizzard to be unaware of what the community likes, since it doesn't voice it.
+1 OP

Mage is just a dead class in competitive pvp in legion. Fire and arcane is good in bgs and duels but they will never be more than gimmick specs in arena. And frost as a spec is just completely and utterly destroyed and completely unplayable. If you want other reasons than OP mentioned just download ptr and test frost yourself its completely horrible. Im not exaggerating, quite the contrary actually.
29/06/2016 19:50Posted by Slancex
frost as a spec is just completely and utterly destroyed and completely unplayable.

It was obvious at the moment they introduced the first Legion changes: removal of Deep Freeze, snare nerf to 30%. It was dead in that moment. Now add the upcoming ridiculous melee mobility (some of them will be literally root immune as well) and their 100% uptime. Not a single frostbolt will be cast.

I still can't comprehend the logic where melee will keep their 50% snares built in their instant attack rotation while a frost mage will have it on 30% only.

I have some hope in fire though as I don't play competitve PvP (it will be a meleefest anyway). I'll use it for fun in my free time outside of PvE content like now. Fire also looks promising in PvE.
Frost might be nice in battlegrounds - one shotting people with glacial spike but nothing else. They are like gimped destro locks on live =P

To fix frost, we should have an ability (passive) that makes our freeze effects to last min. 3 seconds without breaking to at least allow us reliable deep shatter attacks. Or just give us deep freeze back...

As for arcane - I don't have hopes for it due to a single magic school. Burning Determination talent will be semi useful for arcane. E.g. kick on AB - 4/5 seconds lock, and only 4 or 3 secs of kick immunity, while fire/frost can get kick on fire/frost and cast polys for 8 seconds.. or vice versa - kick on poly = 8 secs of freecasting.

Which basically leaves fire as the spec to go, given its mobility, damage, self-heal and CC.
Added Arcane's single school as a concern.

Thanks for the feedback. For reference, it's always useful to be objective about what needs to be improved. e.g. "frost sucks" is not nearly as useful as "I feel like Frost can't get its casts out due to melee mobility"
Useless, is about what I can sum it up to.

Most casters, with the exception of aff locks, got gimped in this pre-patch/patch.

I play a fire mage. We lost our snare on Ignite because of glyph removal. We lost a means of getting away from melee in the removal of Blazing Speed and now we're just left with Blink. Nova etc breaks when you sneeze at it, Frostjaw also taken away

We're now more reliant on hardcasting to chain Hot Streak and most targets need 7-8 Pyros to take down, whereas melee are wrecking peeps in 4-5 gcd's and nothing you do can shake them off as they've been given more mobility and more ways to keep uptime on a target.

Every single major patch - World of Meleecraft. I'ts pathetic.
04/07/2016 22:37Posted by Sardonix
Useless, is about what I can sum it up to.

Most casters, with the exception of aff locks, got gimped in this pre-patch/patch.

I play a fire mage. We lost our snare on Ignite because of glyph removal. We lost a means of getting away from melee in the removal of Blazing Speed and now we're just left with Blink. Nova etc breaks when you sneeze at it, Frostjaw also taken away

We're now more reliant on hardcasting to chain Hot Streak and most targets need 7-8 Pyros to take down, whereas melee are wrecking peeps in 4-5 gcd's and nothing you do can shake them off as they've been given more mobility and more ways to keep uptime on a target.

Every single major patch - World of Meleecraft. I'ts pathetic.


I don't think that summary is quite fair.
You can still talent for a snare with 1 sec Flamestrike. It's not perfect, but it's there. I do agree we would ideally have a snare of some sort, but in instanced PVP this is less of an issue.

Hot Streak can actually be procced over and over without hardcasting. Thanks to Combustion, Flame On and the PVP Fire Blast talent you can literally Pyroblast some 6 times in a row. Add Phoenix's Flames on top of that. From what I've read and heard Fire mages are doing pretty well in the beta, primarily because it is so melee dominated and the Fire mobility is a valuable trait.

Don't want to devalue your opinion at all, just feel the general opinion of Fire in the beta is quite positive. Melee will surely get their damage tuned down.

PS.: Did add the Fire snare concern to the list
I played a solid two hours PvP on test, I'm also in Legion Beta.

While the downsides are somewhat mitigated by artifact and PvP talents at lvl 110, in the space of time between pre-patch and Legion, I can see mages being up in arms about the changes.

We lost all of our mobility with the exception of Blink. We cannot snare targets unless we spec into the gimmick Flamestrike talent combo, which requires using Hot Streak procs and the players we need to try keep out of our faces all have new ways of getting back into our faces, with the exception of Ret palas who I feel even more sorry for.

The Flamestrike spec has promise, but it requires artifact and pvp talents to work. We do not do enough damage in the sort of timeframe necessary before melee smash our faces in it. DK's in particular are ridiculous, as are prot warriors and prot palas, who got a Charge ability if you can believe it.

Too squishy, no mobility, no snares, not enough damage. As has always been the case, we can melt faces if left to do so, but mages - especially fire mages - get tunneled from the get-go of any game. We'll be free honour kills till Legion, 110 and fully levelled weapon & pvp talents. Even then, we're still not all that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1vBirzw2gg

This video was posted in a beta pvp thread. Until there are classes like blood dk (ridiculous survival, fair amount of dmg output, can win 2v1 in arena etc.) casters, especially mages have no chance to be viable in any aspect of pvp.
Not to mention I didn't see casters in those arena games (didn't watch the whole vid only 2/3 of it) except healers.
04/07/2016 22:37Posted by Sardonix
World of Meleecraft

Indeed.
05/07/2016 01:43Posted by Sardonix
I played a solid two hours PvP on test, I'm also in Legion Beta.

While the downsides are somewhat mitigated by artifact and PvP talents at lvl 110, in the space of time between pre-patch and Legion, I can see mages being up in arms about the changes.

We lost all of our mobility with the exception of Blink. We cannot snare targets unless we spec into the gimmick Flamestrike talent combo, which requires using Hot Streak procs and the players we need to try keep out of our faces all have new ways of getting back into our faces, with the exception of Ret palas who I feel even more sorry for.

The Flamestrike spec has promise, but it requires artifact and pvp talents to work. We do not do enough damage in the sort of timeframe necessary before melee smash our faces in it. DK's in particular are ridiculous, as are prot warriors and prot palas, who got a Charge ability if you can believe it.

Too squishy, no mobility, no snares, not enough damage. As has always been the case, we can melt faces if left to do so, but mages - especially fire mages - get tunneled from the get-go of any game. We'll be free honour kills till Legion, 110 and fully levelled weapon & pvp talents. Even then, we're still not all that.


Thanks for the feedback. If you feel there's a particular point that needs to be added in the main post please let me know.
05/07/2016 07:16Posted by Meslun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1vBirzw2gg

This video was posted in a beta pvp thread. Until there are classes like blood dk (ridiculous survival, fair amount of dmg output, can win 2v1 in arena etc.) casters, especially mages have no chance to be viable in any aspect of pvp.
Not to mention I didn't see casters in those arena games (didn't watch the whole vid only 2/3 of it) except healers.
04/07/2016 22:37Posted by Sardonix
World of Meleecraft

Indeed.


What the he.... I mean, to paraphrase the best fisherman - I don't know what to think of that. Is that really Legion PvP...?
06/07/2016 01:05Posted by Sandalf
05/07/2016 07:16Posted by Meslun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1vBirzw2gg

This video was posted in a beta pvp thread. Until there are classes like blood dk (ridiculous survival, fair amount of dmg output, can win 2v1 in arena etc.) casters, especially mages have no chance to be viable in any aspect of pvp.
Not to mention I didn't see casters in those arena games (didn't watch the whole vid only 2/3 of it) except healers.
...
Indeed.


What the he.... I mean, to paraphrase the best fisherman - I don't know what to think of that. Is that really Legion PvP...?

Yes, but relax "it's just beta and they are still tuning some numbers".
05/07/2016 01:43Posted by Sardonix
I played a solid two hours PvP on test, I'm also in Legion Beta.

While the downsides are somewhat mitigated by artifact and PvP talents at lvl 110, in the space of time between pre-patch and Legion, I can see mages being up in arms about the changes.

We lost all of our mobility with the exception of Blink. We cannot snare targets unless we spec into the gimmick Flamestrike talent combo, which requires using Hot Streak procs and the players we need to try keep out of our faces all have new ways of getting back into our faces, with the exception of Ret palas who I feel even more sorry for.

The Flamestrike spec has promise, but it requires artifact and pvp talents to work. We do not do enough damage in the sort of timeframe necessary before melee smash our faces in it. DK's in particular are ridiculous, as are prot warriors and prot palas, who got a Charge ability if you can believe it.

Too squishy, no mobility, no snares, not enough damage. As has always been the case, we can melt faces if left to do so, but mages - especially fire mages - get tunneled from the get-go of any game. We'll be free honour kills till Legion, 110 and fully levelled weapon & pvp talents. Even then, we're still not all that.


I think the trouble you're seeing, is that most melees numbers are off the charts compared to everybody else. I agree that ignite glyph removal hurts but in all honesty, on beta with it we would be almost unstoppable.

I've did quite a few bgs on beta and i would say that fire has it miles better than the majority of the casters when it comes to keeping distance from everything (well apart from dhs but their mobility seems insane)

Slowing with flamestrike at least makes us think about how or when we slow, plus with the pvp talent World in flames we can get it down to an under 1 second cast. Fair enough we trade off an extra fire blast charge for it but with pheonixs flames + 2 fire blast charges we can set up chains of hot streaks quite easily.

I've tried with and without blast wave and i find most of the time i dont really miss it, but theres another option to keep people slowed if you're having trouble getting flamestrikes off or slowing incoming whatever wants to eat you. All this doesnt even take into account that we are constantly moving at 25% increased speed due to 5 stacks of scorched earth due to scorch and the heal we recieve just for blinking, due to cauterizing blink.

Honestly i think compared to the ptr version, the beta with artifact is miles better. The prepatch few weeks will be rough for most but, stick it out and all imo gets a lot better.
06/07/2016 07:59Posted by Eggs
I've did quite a few bgs on beta and i would say that fire has it miles better than the majority of the casters when it comes to keeping distance from everything (well apart from dhs but their mobility seems insane)

Slowing with flamestrike at least makes us think about how or when we slow, plus with the pvp talent World in flames we can get it down to an under 1 second cast. Fair enough we trade off an extra fire blast charge for it but with pheonixs flames + 2 fire blast charges we can set up chains of hot streaks quite easily.

I've tried with and without blast wave and i find most of the time i dont really miss it, but theres another option to keep people slowed if you're having trouble getting flamestrikes off or slowing incoming whatever wants to eat you. All this doesnt even take into account that we are constantly moving at 25% increased speed due to 5 stacks of scorched earth due to scorch and the heal we recieve just for blinking, due to cauterizing blink.

And what happens when you face a spec that simply has more survival and with clever cd usage simply outlasts you? Most of the melee classes can do this, especially tanks (DK in particular). If they will stay as they are now many ppl will reroll to the most viable tank specs for random BG-s or even rated PvP (see video above), because they simply want to enjoy the game and the flowing of mechanics instead of playing a mostly defensive, risky and unrewarding spec.

Every single melee will want a piece from you when they see a caster in the background, because we will be easy targets due to the removal of so many kiting utilities. Blink heals 15% hp? What a joke 1 melee swing does 20-25% if not more, not to mention I read somewhere that Blink healing is reducen by 50% in PvP.

Casting won't be even a thing outside of the PvP talent that gives 8 seconds immunity. The amount of players using kickbot is increasing and Blizz admitted itself that currently there is nothing they can do about it - while they removed all kind of disarm mechanisms... Why interupt and spell lockout is still even a thing in PvP? Why doesn't it work on melee/hunters like a disarm?

Oh almost forgot: you won't keep up 5x scorch buffs for the increased speed, I guarantee it.
Your basically basing your whole theory on numbers that still need tuned, if the numbers for tanks at least go live then i'd be more worried about the pvp side of the game just dying out never mind how one class is doing.

Its not a problem to keep 5 stacks up, even if you for some reason cant then every scorch is 5% movement increase which as a cast, you'll more than likely get at least 2 off before a melee even connects so theres 10% speed straight away plus more as you run.

No idea why you bring up kickbots, if the blizz team balanced everything around kickbots then they might aswell delete anything that casts completly. No idea how you see so many because tbh its not even half as bad as it once was on live, i think people just got used to seeing them and blame any time they got outplayed on that. Same with the disarm question, tweet holinka or something because i've no idea why you'd think i could answer your question.
06/07/2016 12:06Posted by Eggs
Your basically basing your whole theory on numbers that still need tuned, if the numbers for tanks at least go live then i'd be more worried about the pvp side of the game just dying out never mind how one class is doing.

We don't have much time left until Legion and the pre-patch is even closer, yet the tanks still pull out those numbers that "still need to be tuned" making it hard or almost impossible to test other specs properly in PvP. The worst thing is that this is happening since alpha and most of the testing time was spent like this, they got no major changes in the name of "we want to make tanks competitive in PvP again". So many complains about them on beta forums. Until I don't see them on live I have no doubt they will be op af.
06/07/2016 12:06Posted by Eggs
Its not a problem to keep 5 stacks up, even if you for some reason cant then every scorch is 5% movement increase which as a cast, you'll more than likely get at least 2 off before a melee even connects so theres 10% speed straight away plus more as you run.

Melee snares are 50% (and thare are some 70% ones as well), instant and built-in their basic rotation while you need to cast every time an aoe spell and/or sacrifice a hot streak to give them your snare which is clearly the part of the defensive playstyle what I was talking about earlier. While you have to play more defensively than offensively, melee will have insane uptime on you and they will be able to keep more pressure on you. So that speed increase won't matter much and melee classes won't have problem connecting you. They got more gap closers while we lost almost all of our gap openers.
06/07/2016 12:06Posted by Eggs
No idea why you bring up kickbots, if the blizz team balanced everything around kickbots then they might aswell delete anything that casts completly. No idea how you see so many because tbh its not even half as bad as it once was on live, i think people just got used to seeing them and blame any time they got outplayed on that.

I brought up kickbots, because they are cancer to any caster and more and more ppl use it and even more will use it along with other cheats and hacks because of the new upcoming PvP changes. Ppl with minimal time to farm artifact power and lacking honour talents will need some tool to achieve success in PvP, because the difference between a newbie and a hardcore PvP player will be huge. This new system will just make cheating more appealing, because it will be easier than farming honour talents and artifact power.
From what I've gathered recently, Frost needs a lot of work in order to make it solid rather than just a gimmicky one-shot spec.

Arcane seems to be in a good balanced spot.

Fire is looking a bit too strong, if anything.
I've been watching quite a bit of beta streams (I don't have beta access, so my perception could be wrong) and honestly I feel like Frost and Fire are both really strong in beta right now.

As a Frostmage you have crazy burst (even without glacial spike, which is flat out broken and should be removed from pvp as it is right now)
A FB+IL shatter combo with deep shatter and ice form up seems to easily do 25-30% of someone's hp and you can chain it with FB+Ice Nova and if you really want to with FB+Frost Nova ( up to 2 times) back to back to completely annihilate someone within 5-6 seconds.
And if this fails you still have your glacial spike with 5 deep shatter frostbolt icicles which will pretty much oneshot everything.
Well obviously you have to cast to do this kind of damage but at least it has some counterplay and actually requires you to be able to get those casts out.
A big problem will be sustained dmg, especially when you take deep shatter and don't have FoF available. Playstyle will be: wait 25 sec till pet nova+ice nova cd are done to do damage and every 45 sec to do big burst with Ice Form. Try to survive and cc in between.

Also I feel like the melee OP'nes is a little bit overexaggerated. While there are certainly specs with way to much mobility (WW monk, sub rogue, dd DH) or way to much burst ( Arms&prot warr: Focused Rage hellooo wtf is this !@#$ blizzard???)
Also tanks overall, but especially Prot Warriors, Tank DHs and Blood DKs seem WAY over the top and are destroying everything, including Mages. I seriously believe if these OP things (including frost mage burst / glacial spike) get tweaked Mages will be in a super good spot.

Frost Mobility/kiting/CC got a pretty big nerf, slows got reduced to 30%, blazing speed gone, deep freeze gone BUT we get our frostnova back + ice floes (I think it is worth picking over the other choices) so that's at least something, right? There is a big flaw in the system when melees have spamable 70% slows while the frost mage has a 30% slow CoC which has like 40% uptime. That is just dumb imho.

I have one big concern, which is Ice Block. It has a 5 minute CD. FIVE %^-*ING MINUTES. Cold Snap is still required but heavily nerfed. I mean you have to wait TEN !@#$ING MINUTES to get both block charges up. That is straight up ridiculous.
Adding a personal issue to Fire:

Without being able to recieve a Heating Up! proc while Pyroblast! is active makes bursting feel really clunky and leaves room for times where you do not have any damage and have to fish for more procs.

Also Dragon's Breath animation is way too short, looks amazing but needs to be as long as the old one.
29/06/2016 18:45Posted by Shougo
Most people agree the Arcane design is looking very interesting. The extra mobility, coupled with the new Mage Armor and Greater Invisibility changes are likely to make the spec more fun and competitive.


I could be wrong but what exactly changed compared to live?

Mage armor stil reduces magic effects by 25% and increases mastery (same as live)

Greater invis actually got it's numbers nerfed. longer cooldown, no longer removes 2 dots and dmg reduction is down to 60% (live 90%). Still breaks instantly if you want to use it to escape (aka poor man's vanish).

the only positive change about arcane is displacement since its a fun mechanic.
other than that it is exacly like it is on live (same flaws as always, most notable the ease in which you can lockout the Arcane school and how useless the mage is once that happens)

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