Class/Spec balance is unacceptable

General
The relative balance between different classes and specs is absolute trash at the moment. I'm not sure I've ever seen it this bad since tbc. The thing is I really like legion. I like all the content it has to offer, I like that it so far makes me excited to play, I even like most of the class changes.

But number balance is killing it for me. I know they've said they are going to do balancing one week into raid release and I will reserve proper judgement until then, but for now I just don't know how they are going to fix some specs. How are they going to get adequate data for balancing frost mages in raids and mythic+ dungeons when only 0.0001% of mages will be doing that content as frost. Same goes for many other specs such as frost dk, elemental shaman, affliction warlock on single target and ret paladins. I'm at a loss as to why this balance was not sorted out in beta when they had sufficient data from people freely and easily trying out specs.

I want to love this expansion, but for me a huge part of enjoyment of wow comes from class diversity and being able to choose freely what I want to play. Not sure if others feel the same way but anyway!

Rant overs :)
Yes I feel the same way. I used to main a hunter, which I'm not too fond of at the moment. that's okay, I'll play something else this expansion.
So I'm looking at my alts and there is this Ele shaman, my frost mage, my frost DK, my assassin rogue and my ret pally. Also an Allfiction Warlock, which is like watching paint dry.
I've tried different specs on them in the last week or so, but i really prefer their old specs. I hope Blizz rebalances the classes soon so at least a few of them become playable.
I'm honostly not even sure what is supposed to be considered balanced at this point - it seems like that the numbers are all over the place across the board - so at what ilvl are you even supposed to do what dps etc - just seems to be such a massive difference from class to class and from spec to spec as it is right now.
rogues also have really bad spec balance with outlaw being the best in basically every situation, often by a big margin. outlaw has blade flurry which means that it will always crush the other two specs on cleave, but not only that, it's also the best on single-target. it's pretty silly.

i believe blizzard said they didn't want to change which spec was the best since people have invested artifact power into that, so presumably outlaw will continue to be superior to the other specs. i see their point but i also think that having one spec be the best at everything in a pve environment is really stupid. i would hope the other two specs could be allowed to at least almost reach the damage output of the casino pirate overlords.
18/09/2016 21:02Posted by Octarine
The relative balance between different classes and specs is absolute trash at the moment. I'm not sure I've ever seen it this bad since tbc. The thing is I really like legion. I like all the content it has to offer, I like that it so far makes me excited to play, I even like most of the class changes.

But number balance is killing it for me. I know they've said they are going to do balancing one week into raid release and I will reserve proper judgement until then, but for now I just don't know how they are going to fix some specs. How are they going to get adequate data for balancing frost mages in raids and mythic+ dungeons when only 0.0001% of mages will be doing that content as frost. Same goes for many other specs such as frost dk, elemental shaman, affliction warlock on single target and ret paladins. I'm at a loss as to why this balance was not sorted out in beta when they had sufficient data from people freely and easily trying out specs.

I want to love this expansion, but for me a huge part of enjoyment of wow comes from class diversity and being able to choose freely what I want to play. Not sure if others feel the same way but anyway!

Rant overs :)


While the balance is bad, you're playing one of the best specs in the game right now.

I'm sure you'll do ok.
19/09/2016 01:11Posted by Demigon
18/09/2016 21:02Posted by Octarine
The relative balance between different classes and specs is absolute trash at the moment. I'm not sure I've ever seen it this bad since tbc. The thing is I really like legion. I like all the content it has to offer, I like that it so far makes me excited to play, I even like most of the class changes.

But number balance is killing it for me. I know they've said they are going to do balancing one week into raid release and I will reserve proper judgement until then, but for now I just don't know how they are going to fix some specs. How are they going to get adequate data for balancing frost mages in raids and mythic+ dungeons when only 0.0001% of mages will be doing that content as frost. Same goes for many other specs such as frost dk, elemental shaman, affliction warlock on single target and ret paladins. I'm at a loss as to why this balance was not sorted out in beta when they had sufficient data from people freely and easily trying out specs.

I want to love this expansion, but for me a huge part of enjoyment of wow comes from class diversity and being able to choose freely what I want to play. Not sure if others feel the same way but anyway!

Rant overs :)


While the balance is bad, you're playing one of the best specs in the game right now.

I'm sure you'll do ok.


Just cause he/she is playing fire doesn't mean it's what he/she wants to play. I mean who in their right mind would want to stay playing a bad class spec such as frost when it's fairly obvious to anybody that without a decent performing spec you are not going to do well in this expansion at anything, including joining groups.
this is honestly one of the big problems with legion so far, being bound to that 1 spec you have invested AP into.

not being able to move your AP to other specs will honestly hurt the game in the coming months. because being shoehorned into playing only 1 spec will increase the chance of people getting bored. especially with how alt unfriendly the game is in its current state.

another problem is, like you said, the balance. imagine the uproar if frost suddenly became way superior to fire. blizzard has basically boxed them self in until the next expansion.
Remember guys, beta is just a tool for promotion, not balancing
And here I thought everyone loved Vanilla.
19/09/2016 01:32Posted by Sharmina
19/09/2016 01:11Posted by Demigon
...

While the balance is bad, you're playing one of the best specs in the game right now.

I'm sure you'll do ok.


Just cause he/she is playing fire doesn't mean it's what he/she wants to play. I mean who in their right mind would want to stay playing a bad class spec such as frost when it's fairly obvious to anybody that without a decent performing spec you are not going to do well in this expansion at anything, including joining groups.


Sure, I get that. I'd rather they take their time and try to get the balance fixes done well than just spam out random nerfs and buffs and end up getting even worse balance though.

Still, who would pick frost over fire even if they were close? The fire spec has it all and it's really fun at that.
19/09/2016 02:11Posted by Demigon
Still, who would pick frost over fire even if they were close? The fire spec has it all and it's really fun at that.


I was playing frost up until the pre patch hit. I have to admit I was not happy to change at first but now I have I don't regret it. I love fire way more than frost now.
18/09/2016 21:02Posted by Octarine
I'm not sure I've ever seen it this bad since tbc.


Same thing, different patch.
To be honest, I got used to the balance issues and adapting to the new raid specs.

However, this time I'm actually worried - and it's all because of AP/artifacts. Been worried since prepatch when all went fire with 5% exceptions or something. I have absolutely NO FAITH, ZERO, in Blizz to be able to properly balance the specs in such a way that Arcane or Frost won't be better for raiding in a patch or two.

And let's be clear, a 5% difference would be... almost tolerable, but Blizz never managed such fine tuning. When Arcane was better, it was 30% better, if not more. When Fire took off in BRF/T17, it got ridiculous numbers against other specs, especially in cleaving, ad then even single target. Frost was so bad, you would have not be able to raid in it.

So it is a legit worry, IMO. This is why I want AP to be transferable between artifacts, I just cannot trust Blizz with balance, I prefer to be able to choose my spec as needed without having to farm weeks/months to unlock its potential.
In other topics when I and other shamans highlighted the terrible spec performance in pvp, I said the same thing and saying it again:

Such balancing can be done ANY TIME if they want to. In a database and mat driven game -LOL like any computer program really-, anyone telling me they "will do it in future" or "they will do it on 110"... Rubish

They purposefully favorizing classes and specs.

And as People optimistically pointed out that "OH NO THEY WILL DO IT"...
I said they won't, they could have done it on 90, 100, during beta, anytime really.

But i told you so...
This never gonna happen.

Players need to step up and demand, or it will not happen, like it didn't ever happened like ever in any of the past 12 years ever.

18/09/2016 21:02Posted by Octarine
The relative balance between different classes and specs is absolute trash at the moment. I'm not sure I've ever seen it this bad since tbc. The thing is I really like legion. I like all the content it has to offer, I like that it so far makes me excited to play, I even like most of the class changes.

But number balance is killing it for me. I know they've said they are going to do balancing one week into raid release and I will reserve proper judgement until then, but for now I just don't know how they are going to fix some specs. How are they going to get adequate data for balancing frost mages in raids and mythic+ dungeons when only 0.0001% of mages will be doing that content as frost. Same goes for many other specs such as frost dk, elemental shaman, affliction warlock on single target and ret paladins. I'm at a loss as to why this balance was not sorted out in beta when they had sufficient data from people freely and easily trying out specs.

I want to love this expansion, but for me a huge part of enjoyment of wow comes from class diversity and being able to choose freely what I want to play. Not sure if others feel the same way but anyway!

Rant overs :)
19/09/2016 02:11Posted by Demigon
Still, who would pick frost over fire even if they were close?

I would, and I do, even in the current shameful state of the numbers. I went Fire for a while during the pre-patch and after. It was effective, and faster than Frost, and took only a couple of days to pick up, but what kind of fool logs in to play something they don't enjoy?

Fire is in its best state since I started, and they really have done some serious work on taking the fun out of Frost, but for me it's still no contest. (And The Balls!, The Balls! - they are SO annoying.)

If the devs were as committed to balancing as they are to making things less fun to play, we'd be a bit better off.

19/09/2016 03:52Posted by Chanyi
I have absolutely NO FAITH, ZERO, in Blizz to be able to properly balance the specs

19/09/2016 04:12Posted by Soulscraper
Such balancing can be done ANY TIME if they want to. In a database and mat driven game -LOL like any computer program really-, anyone telling me they "will do it in future" or "they will do it on 110"... Rubish

They purposefully favorizing classes and specs.

So which is it?

Hanlon's Razor says "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity," which would support Chanyi's view. On the other hand, these are not stupid people, and the single-target problem, at least, is not complicated. How did they let this out of Beta? An alternative wording is "Don't assume bad intentions over neglect and misunderstanding." Did they care that balance would be out of whack until raids opened? But they have promised to ensure that the rich stay richest - did they choose favourites over a darts game?

I really would like to know the processes that led to this.

But worse than numbers, for me, is that all the characters I play are less fun than they used to be.
Which part is less fan?
I personally love almost all changes on all classes/specs.

I don't assume bad intention. I look everything factually, compare logical exprssions. Lol i even write like a computer program... IF... THEN...ELSE. :)

If they dont fav. Classes/Specs over the others, explain the utter steam roller class of DH logically; that sick amount of cc/movement/mitigation/self heal skills? Being on the receiving end of its attacks with any other class is like standing under a lavina, hoping for the best.

19/09/2016 05:36Posted by Gráinne

So which is it?

Hanlon's Razor says "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity," which would support Chanyi's view. On the other hand, these are not stupid people, and the single-target problem, at least, is not complicated. How did they let this out of Beta? An alternative wording is "Don't assume bad intentions over neglect and misunderstanding." Did they care that balance would be out of whack until raids opened? But they have promised to ensure that the rich stay richest - did they choose favourites over a darts game?

I really would like to know the processes that led to this.

But worse than numbers, for me, is that all the characters I play are less fun than they used to be.
Sure feels bad as elemental shaman main to play right now.

Its actually so bad, and elemental feels so weak in world quests and solo content, that I resorted to going Enhance for these (despite having only 13p in the enhance artifact, vs 19p in my elemental one).

I'm hoping the tuning pass will at least somewhat fix things, I don't want to be benched from raid because my spec is garbage yet again and forced to reroll.
Someone can remember an hot fix that actually solved balance problems?
They will start with +- 20% here and there creating another different mess.
They are not stupid, still they are not solving an easy problem since years..
So.. Maybe this is just very smart.. Keep creating unfair situation so the player will want to play a different character. And if you want to play a different char or spec, you need time to build it... And blizzard sell you that time for 12€ every month.
Right now I feel like.. I have to chose between frost, or being invited in groups. Can't have both. I'm tempted to play fire and make my life easier. But I don't want to change everytime blizzard says jump.
I will be the last dps, and when I will be bored to be always the last, I will change game. It's not my responsibility select a competitive class. It's a blizzard concern make all classes viable for progression. Would you ever invite a frost mage over a fire in your raid? Bring the player not the class... Nice words.
"Mastery is a mechanic and stat introduced in Patch 4.0.1. Each specialization has its own Mastery, offering benefits appropriate to that spec's role and abilities ."
(taken from Wowpedia)

EVERY spec has a different mastery benefit thus making it stupidly easy to balance any class and spec if they so wished.

However Blizz no longer cares about 'issues' that would need time and/or resources to change.

Company has gone to the !@#$ter and now does everything on the cheap IMO.
19/09/2016 05:36Posted by Gráinne
Hanlon's Razor says "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity," which would support Chanyi's view.

It's neither malice or stupidity/being bad devs.

It's a system too complex to properly balance, and that is the cost of diversity:

- diverse specs: talents, gear, artifacts, spells - all to be tuned
- diverse encounters: single target, lots of movements, can stay still (basicallyno longer in the game), short AoE periods with little HP ads that die very fast, constant cleaving with councli bosses, prio targeting with the big, dangerous ads and so on.

When you combine all of these things together and attempt to balance everything, you might need something like a a network of supercomputers to calculate the proper numbers for you.

But more importantly, if you insist of having diverse spells/talents (which is good, cause classes are classes in an RPG...), then a few of them are bound to outperform others depending on the scenario.

So.

Given these factors, I am very willing to understand that:

- there cannot be balance
- I have 3 specs to use and switch between, depending on the encounter
- have talents to switch between as well

Just don't trap me on a single artifact, so I can adapt as needed. I guess that's all.

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