I demand free items for doing nothing

General
Prev 1 3 4 5 7 Next
04/10/2016 17:36Posted by Melthazina
Because it undermines the raid as end-game if you can get the same item without going through raid. And balancing it out so that getting that gear is as hard as going through a raid, is a balance you'll never find. Per example, doing 100 heroic dungeons to get 100 tokens is a whole lot easier than doing 10 mythic+, just to build on your example.

In per example The elder scrolls: Online, most of the "best" gear you can get is crafted. The "end content" is trials, but what's the incentive of doing trials? You can get gear, but you don't need it. You can try to beat the clock, but that's rather boring after a few trials.

Thing is, gear is also a very high incentive to raid, and not only is it fun to defeat the bosses but also see what loot drops and hoping you get. So any system set in place can't undermine the incentive of going through the raids. And you're never going to make it "as difficult" to repeat the content 100 times as it is to kill the boss in a raid, where you require to apply tactics and cooperation with the group to manage.


Already addressed the exclusivity issue. I'll only add that it seems extremely petulant to want this one way of gameplay to reward the best gear.

If loot is the only incentive for you to do high end content well then that's pretty immature. I on the other hand am talking about loot to *enable* me doing high end content, because currently, whatever you have to say, no hc raid or mythic+ group above +2 desires someone with 854 ilevel.

Raiders already have masses of incentive as I said. Achievements, more loot than elsewhere, bragging rights, titles, mounts, and better looking gear.
I'm going to ask again, what's wrong with sharing ilevel and stats a bit?

And yes, doing an hc 100 times is easier than doing high end content. It would also require far more time. Time invested vs. effort invested. It's a tried and true concept that you are apparently unaware of.
Oh my, same problem with WOD (and any expansion to be honest). Yeah, "perfect" items are rare now, in a few tiers it's going to be better (in special for LFR/Regular Raids drops).

About Warforged, Titanforged and all the other stuff is a problem created by players mentalilty.
04/10/2016 17:41Posted by Gorlacon
04/10/2016 17:32Posted by Irongym

865 is HC Raid quality; can you not see how it would negatively affect raiding progression


How?

What does it matter to you if, for example, I got my 865 after months of grinding out easier content earning hundreds of tokens, as opposed to you getting a lucky drop on harder content?

How does how I got my gear make one iota of difference to your raid progression? It doesn't.

One could logically argue I have consistently put MORE effort in to get that gear than someone who just got a lucky RNG loot roll after a handful of runs.

And as we keep on hearing effort should be rewarded; problem is most people banging that "pro RNG" drum aren't nearly clever enough to understand that lucky RNG loot rolls have absolutely NOTHING to do with rewarding effort.

All The Best


The problem is that a certain subset of people have come to believe that effort in WoW equals raiding, and anything that isn't raiding is "beneath it" and doesn't truly count as work.
So these people do indeed think that downing a single hc raid boss and getting a lucky drop is hard work while doing 100 WQs or dungeons or anything that doesn't involve raiding and maybe rated pvp is a free ride.

This elitist and snobbish attitude is another thing that drives people away from the game. Because even when the game offers a variety of content it becomes a case of go raiding or go home.
A system that says "Clear 100 dungeons and complete 100 World Quests to obtain item X" is rewarding.

A system that says "Clear dungeons and complete World Quests untill you obtain item X" is not rewarding.

I want to grind to a set goal, not grind and hope I will get lucky this side of christmas.
Excellent post OP, anyone calling wanting the ridiculous level of RNG toning down as wanting "Welfare Epics" obviously doesn't know what Welfare Epics were.

Welfare Epics were PvP epics with amazing stats, they were better than dungeon gear and you could have a full set in a couple of hours of BG grinding, they were old Arena season sets that were only slightly less powerful than the new arena season set and could be Gemmed to replace Dungeon gear so you could use it for TK /CFR.

It was Swiss army knife gear. Everyone could have it within a few hours of max level, that's what Welfare epics were.

Asking for RNG addressing for gear you're actually working for? That's not welfare by a long chalk.
04/10/2016 16:25Posted by Hørish
04/10/2016 15:08Posted by Imbalanxd
the entitled players of today


I swear you have been copy pasting this !@#$ing sentence into every thread addressing this issue.


The dude is a Sh!tposter. Ignore him.
04/10/2016 17:38Posted by Synéa
No it would not be trivialised at all. Because hc raiding would still get these items faster.
I am sick and tired of this all or nothing attitude, that we have to continually butter hardcore raiders up with exclusive access to the best gear, and the prettiest gear, and the titles, and the mounts.
How many bribes do these people need?


It would be trivialized. They put more time and skill into the game therefore they should reap better rewards, and in a game where gear is (or at least should be) the primary measurement of how good and dedicated a player is, then I'm fine with not getting 865 ilvl gear if I haven't beaten ilvl 865 challenges. As it should be.
04/10/2016 18:13Posted by Kampvogn
04/10/2016 17:38Posted by Synéa
No it would not be trivialised at all. Because hc raiding would still get these items faster.
I am sick and tired of this all or nothing attitude, that we have to continually butter hardcore raiders up with exclusive access to the best gear, and the prettiest gear, and the titles, and the mounts.
How many bribes do these people need?


It would be trivialized. They put more time and skill into the game


Citation needed. Many of us put a lot of time and "skill" into this game, we're just not fortunate enough to be accepted into the top guilds.
And I mean the legitimate top guilds, not scripters and beta abusers who exploit bugs to get legendaries for the entire team and know every way to bug the raid bosses.

therefore they should reap better rewards, and in a game where gear is (or at least should be) the primary measurement of how good and dedicated a player is, then I'm fine with not getting 865 ilvl gear if I haven't beaten ilvl 865 challenges. As it should be.


Except people *ARE* getting 865 and 870 gear for doing next to nothing while others are doing hard work and getting garbage because of RNG. So do you approve of this?

Gear should not be a measurement of anything. Gear is what enables us to progress our characters and do more challenging content.
Blizz promise us a virtually infinite challenge with mythic+ levels for example with no reliable way to progress through that challenge except for pure blind luck. This is unacceptable.
04/10/2016 15:37Posted by Tópdps
agree with the op in the scenario given.

on the other !@#$ing hand we have total entitled brats demanding lfr drop the the stuff needed for certain skins? really? why should you get the same stuff as someone who spends hours a day grinding just so that he can spend an average of 5000 per boss/wipe later that night. but no you deserve everything the game has to offer because you pay 10 quid a month


Stop the bus right there. You spend hours a day farming stuff to do normal? Because that stuff drops in normal.
04/10/2016 18:13Posted by Kampvogn
...

It would be trivialized. They put more time and skill into the game


Citation needed. Many of us put a lot of time and "skill" into this game, we're just not fortunate enough to be accepted into the top guilds.
And I mean the legitimate top guilds, not scripters and beta abusers who exploit bugs to get legendaries for the entire team and know every way to bug the raid bosses.

therefore they should reap better rewards, and in a game where gear is (or at least should be) the primary measurement of how good and dedicated a player is, then I'm fine with not getting 865 ilvl gear if I haven't beaten ilvl 865 challenges. As it should be.


Except people *ARE* getting 865 and 870 gear for doing next to nothing while others are doing hard work and getting garbage because of RNG. So do you approve of this?

Gear should not be a measurement of anything. Gear is what enables us to progress our characters and do more challenging content.
Blizz promise us a virtually infinite challenge with mythic+ levels for example with no reliable way to progress through that challenge except for pure blind luck. This is unacceptable.


May I ask what hard work you're doing? You've cleared normal... That's it.
...

Citation needed. Many of us put a lot of time and "skill" into this game, we're just not fortunate enough to be accepted into the top guilds.
And I mean the legitimate top guilds, not scripters and beta abusers who exploit bugs to get legendaries for the entire team and know every way to bug the raid bosses.

...

Except people *ARE* getting 865 and 870 gear for doing next to nothing while others are doing hard work and getting garbage because of RNG. So do you approve of this?

Gear should not be a measurement of anything. Gear is what enables us to progress our characters and do more challenging content.
Blizz promise us a virtually infinite challenge with mythic+ levels for example with no reliable way to progress through that challenge except for pure blind luck. This is unacceptable.


May I ask what hard work you're doing? You've cleared normal... That's it.


His point still stands. WQs has the Welfare Epics feel because you can get super lucky, score a few Titanforge rolls, BAM i850.

On my Lock I got an i850 head item from the Val'sharah squirrel quest, yes an 850 from clicking a few things on the screen because RNGesus decided it was Titanforge time.

You think that's fair when someone runs 10+ Mythic dungeons to maybe get an i860 with all the wrong stats?

Then there's LFR that's dropping i835's. It's raid content, I don't care if it's "easy" it's still a step up from Heroic and should be a viable alternative to standard Mythics. Yet again it's beholden to RNG, getting that lucky Titanforge with the right stats.

The current system discourages running Keystones, it encourages grinding WQs with 830+ and 840+ drops to get that Titanforge roll.

That's flawed design no matter which way you slice it
04/10/2016 18:27Posted by Sainttwink
May I ask what hard work you're doing? You've cleared normal... That's it.


See my earlier point about raids not being the sole definition of hard work in WoW and then hang your head in shame.

Also, I love how raid snobbery has gone past LFR and creeped into normal now.
How about you try and go do EN normal with a disorganised group that doesn't know tactics and see what happens.
I know Blizzard has done it's best to pander to the snobs by removing achievement titles not only from normal, but from heroic, but the last thing I need is pipsqueaks like you diminishing everything I do.
04/10/2016 18:59Posted by Synéa
04/10/2016 18:27Posted by Sainttwink
May I ask what hard work you're doing? You've cleared normal... That's it.


See my earlier point about raids not being the sole definition of hard work in WoW and then hang your head in shame.

Also, I love how raid snobbery has gone past LFR and creeped into normal now.
How about you try and go do EN normal with a disorganised group that doesn't know tactics and see what happens.
I know Blizzard has done it's best to pander to the snobs by removing achievement titles not only from normal, but from heroic, but the last thing I need is pipsqueaks like you diminishing everything I do.


You said you've done hard work if it's not raiding then what is it? And no I'm not belittling what you've done. I don't have many more bosses killed my self, but I'm sorry, normal is not hard work.

So I ask again, what hard work have you done. Or, is it that Jonny got a legendary on his second run and you didn't?
04/10/2016 19:07Posted by Sainttwink
You said you've done hard work if it's not raiding then what is it? And no I'm not belittling what you've done. I don't have many more bosses killed my self, but I'm sorry, normal is not hard work.


Why isn't it hard work?
I've contributed as much as I can. Spent money on flasks and potions. Followed tactics.
So explain to me how it isn't hard work. Easier difficulty does not equal easy. It's like saying Dark Souls is easier than Demon's Souls. A correct statement, but this doesn't suddenly mean Dark Souls is easy.

So I ask again, what hard work have you done. Or, is it that Jonny got a legendary on his second run and you didn't?


I've done mythics, mythic+ and all sorts of other content that either required an investment in skill or an investment in time.
04/10/2016 17:45Posted by Synéa
Already addressed the exclusivity issue. I'll only add that it seems extremely petulant to want this one way of gameplay to reward the best gear.

If loot is the only incentive for you to do high end content well then that's pretty immature. I on the other hand am talking about loot to *enable* me doing high end content, because currently, whatever you have to say, no hc raid or mythic+ group above +2 desires someone with 854 ilevel.

Raiders already have masses of incentive as I said. Achievements, more loot than elsewhere, bragging rights, titles, mounts, and better looking gear.
I'm going to ask again, what's wrong with sharing ilevel and stats a bit?

And yes, doing an hc 100 times is easier than doing high end content. It would also require far more time. Time invested vs. effort invested. It's a tried and true concept that you are apparently unaware of.


Time spent does not equate to effort though. If you spend 5 hours picking flowers in Highmountain, does that mean you've had it as difficult as those who've been in heroic Emerald Nightmare?

Higher difficulty should equate to better reward. It's not the time invested that means anything but the difficulty in the content you're doing. I don't think it's correct that doing content that is easy should reward you as good as something that's difficult to do. I don't see spending a bit more time doing something like crafting, as difficult as having to kill a raid boss on normal or higher difficulty. If time investment equates to difficulty then Runescape is the most difficult MMO out there.
All the mental hoops that people have to jump through in order to keep justifying raiding as an activity, despite it being the number one cause of drama in the community...

I'd rather Blizzard stopped making raids, and instead turned the development and art time and resources saved from cutting them toward making more questing zones.

You know, that whole 'MMO world' thing we've been lacking ever since the concept of the 'raid tier' came to be.
04/10/2016 18:59Posted by Synéa
04/10/2016 18:27Posted by Sainttwink
May I ask what hard work you're doing? You've cleared normal... That's it.


See my earlier point about raids not being the sole definition of hard work in WoW and then hang your head in shame.

Also, I love how raid snobbery has gone past LFR and creeped into normal now.
How about you try and go do EN normal with a disorganised group that doesn't know tactics and see what happens.
I know Blizzard has done it's best to pander to the snobs by removing achievement titles not only from normal, but from heroic, but the last thing I need is pipsqueaks like you diminishing everything I do.


This is the problem with catering to a small yet vocal minority, something Blizzard were warned about in TBC when they turned a blind eye to using DPS meters and armory as a way of segregation not personal improvement.

They get louder, they demand more, eventually we'll be lucky to even get cosmetics because the loud minority want everything gating.

I don't blame Blizzard for the current state of Legion, I blame that same loud and obnoxious minority that ruined TBC.

They were responsible for welfare epics to "gear their alts"

They were responsible for BT attunement being given to everyone within two weeks of those that worked for it "because it wasn't fair to make them repeat it on their alts"

They are responsible for the ludicrous gear requirement barrier to run even normal Mythics "because they want smooth fast runs"

It's time Blizzard stopped listening to these types and doing right by the rest of the community.

None of this RNG rubbish in Dungeons

None of this gating garbage for content that should be accessible and the only gate being difficulty.

None of this devil may care behaviour to LFR, it should be an alternative gearing path not a joke like it is.

The only gates that should exist are difficulty gates that can be overcome with skill and Attunement gates that can be overcome by doing the relevant questline.

There's no need to have gates on absolutely everything.

It's segregational, disclusional and causing more problems than it ever has.
04/10/2016 19:13Posted by Melthazina
Time spent does not equate to effort though. If you spend 5 hours picking flowers in Highmountain, does that mean you've had it as difficult as those who've been in heroic Emerald Nightmare?


Seeing as I've never said 5 hours picking flowers in Highmountain should give the equivalent of 5 hours in hc EN this is irrelevant.

Higher difficulty should equate to better reward. It's not the time invested that means anything but the difficulty in the content you're doing. I don't think it's correct that doing content that is easy should reward you as good as something that's difficult to do. I don't see spending a bit more time doing something like crafting, as difficult as having to kill a raid boss on normal or higher difficulty. If time investment equates to difficulty then Runescape is the most difficult MMO out there.


And in my example system higher difficulty still gets a better reward.
EN hc would still give more frequent loot, potentially better loot with titanforging and achivements.
Thus ultimately time spent there would be objectively more rewarding than time spent doing WQs.

The problem with you is that you think that in order for EN hc to be rewarding, all other gameplay options must not be rewarding at all, which is an asinine viewpoint.
04/10/2016 15:43Posted by Ignasius
I don't understand why people are saying this. It has always been rng when I used to run BWL with my guild back in the day I would pray for my tier 2 pieces to drop and most weeks they wouldn't. It's always been rng and nothing has really changed the real gripe is people don't like these random legendaries that's the real issue here. I personally don't mind them but then again I'm aware this is a game and I won't lose my house if I don't get one.

This is different kind of RNG yes. I waited for Dragonstalker shoulders for weeks :) I really hated the look of Giantstalker on Night Elf male and it was not that good stats either. Damn I wanted it to drop.. and finally it did.. It felt great. Tier pieces were not the most rare loot out there.. compared to some trinkets for example (Drakefang talon )

There are 2 things about it:

1. It can drop.. and when it drops you feel great.
2. It motivates you to run it over and over until you finally get it.

The difference to current situation:
1. Stuff drops all the time but they are not with correct stats.. or whatever
2. Motivation gets killed by the fact that you are getting supposedly upgrades from random items and they are worse.

In old days I was just happy if the loot didn't get disenchanted.. someone in the guild got an upgrade. My turn would come.

Anyways.. for long time any loot upgrade or not haven't really made me feel anything nowadays. Its just epics all over the place.. the items doesn't have anything special feeling anymore.

Played Vanilla during summer and I felt good when I finally got Devilsaur set on my Rogue after farming the Devilsaurs for couple hours. Felt even better after running Maraudon for 2-3 hours 2 times.. first time 0 loot for me and second time I got all the best Leather loots + the good ring.

When you have green / blue crap on.. things that are at least somewhat quality stuff feel much better.

When you have epics with ilvl x .. getting another epic with ilvl x+y doesn't feel that good.
04/10/2016 19:07Posted by Sainttwink
You said you've done hard work if it's not raiding then what is it? And no I'm not belittling what you've done. I don't have many more bosses killed my self, but I'm sorry, normal is not hard work.


Why isn't it hard work?
I've contributed as much as I can. Spent money on flasks and potions. Followed tactics.
So explain to me how it isn't hard work. Easier difficulty does not equal easy. It's like saying Dark Souls is easier than Demon's Souls. A correct statement, but this doesn't suddenly mean Dark Souls is easy.

So I ask again, what hard work have you done. Or, is it that Jonny got a legendary on his second run and you didn't?


I've done mythics, mythic+ and all sorts of other content that either required an investment in skill or an investment in time.


Everyone has done what youre talking about. It's not hard work, it's called playing the game. I cleared normal this week without a single drop. Should I start a thread?

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum