I demand free items for doing nothing

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04/10/2016 17:32Posted by Irongym
865 is HC Raid quality; can you not see how it would negatively affect raiding progression if players could consistently grind even 1 item per week at 865 from tasks like Heroics/Mythics/WQs? Normal would be trivialised for all those guilds that don't already sweep through it in a week and then people would just get stuck at 865 rather than 855.


No it would not be trivialised at all. Because hc raiding would still get these items faster.
I am sick and tired of this all or nothing attitude, that we have to continually butter hardcore raiders up with exclusive access to the best gear, and the prettiest gear, and the titles, and the mounts.
How many bribes do these people need?

Also, what if the badge gear doesn't have the stats you want? I know from your posts that you'd not want an 865 helm packed with Mastery but my Arms Warrior alt would love it. Do Blizz have to offer all possible combinations of 50/50 split secondary combos for this to work?


Yes. Why not?


Clearing Heroic would get these items quicker but that's not who 865 vendor gear would be for anyway. If you are the sort of guild that's just making forays into it now/not quite ready for Heroic then raiding Heroic in the intended 850 gear wouldn't be quicker than badges (unless it was a brutally slow system). Your proposed system would make these guilds overgear the early encounters and would do the same for the lower levels of Mythic+, thus undermining two different parts of the endgame.

Good job!

For guilds who are further behind and currently working through Normal it would be even more extreme and they would end up brute forcing mechanics before they learned to deal with them properly. That's going to shovel raiders into Mythic raids that they'll be blocked by for ages. It's a terrible idea for those people too.

For perhaps the first time ever, raiders don't exclusively get the best gear. There are people pushing Mythic+ at high levels and getting better than Mythic raiding drops, there are people getting warforged and titanforged drops from WQs and Mythics and there's almost certainly a lucky player or two who got the stars to align on a super-titanforged LFR item that the Exorsus boys and girls would love. The difference between gear available to super high end raiders and all ever players has never been so close.

If you can choose the best stats available to you directly from a vendor anytime you turn up with the right number of badges then why would you get gear from anywhere else? You'd be swapping a system with multiple sources for one where you vendored all but the luckiest drops and just bought badge items. That would narrow the sources people got items from, not increase them.
...

Why isn't it hard work?
I've contributed as much as I can. Spent money on flasks and potions. Followed tactics.
So explain to me how it isn't hard work. Easier difficulty does not equal easy. It's like saying Dark Souls is easier than Demon's Souls. A correct statement, but this doesn't suddenly mean Dark Souls is easy.

...

I've done mythics, mythic+ and all sorts of other content that either required an investment in skill or an investment in time.


Everyone has done what youre talking about. It's not hard work, it's called playing the game. I cleared normal this week without a single drop. Should I start a thread?


I'm sorry. It's not hard work if other people do it?

Hey tell you what. Go find the biggest, burliest builder you can and tell him that none of what he's done is hard work, because of the 20 other people doing the same thing as him.

<span class="truncated">...</span>

No it would not be trivialised at all. Because hc raiding would still get these items faster.
I am sick and tired of this all or nothing attitude, that we have to continually butter hardcore raiders up with exclusive access to the best gear, and the prettiest gear, and the titles, and the mounts.
How many bribes do these people need?

<span class="truncated">...</span>

Yes. Why not?


Clearing Heroic would get these items quicker but that's not who 865 vendor gear would be for anyway. If you are the sort of guild that's just making forays into it now/not quite ready for Heroic then raiding Heroic in the intended 850 gear wouldn't be quicker than badges (unless it was a brutally slow system). Your proposed system would make these guilds overgear the early encounters and would do the same for the lower levels of Mythic+, thus undermining two different parts of the endgame.

Good job!

For guilds who are further behind and currently working through Normal it would be even more extreme and they would end up brute forcing mechanics before they learned to deal with them properly. That's going to shovel raiders into Mythic raids that they'll be blocked by for ages. It's a terrible idea for those people too.

For perhaps the first time ever, raiders don't exclusively get the best gear. There are people pushing Mythic+ at high levels and getting better than Mythic raiding drops, there are people getting warforged and titanforged drops from WQs and Mythics and there's almost certainly a lucky player or two who got the stars to align on a super-titanforged LFR item that the Exorsus boys and girls would love. The difference between gear available to super high end raiders and all ever players has never been so close.

If you can choose the best stats available to you directly from a vendor anytime you turn up with the right number of badges then why would you get gear from anywhere else? You'd be swapping a system with multiple sources for one where you vendored all but the luckiest drops and just bought badge items. That would narrow the sources people got items from, not increase them.


*through gritted teeth*

I already explained why. You simply don't have the ability to comprehend that doing hcs would still be more difficult and more rewarding.

You also don't seem to understand that gaining rewards through tokens would be inherently gated by time and it would be up to blizzard to balance the ratio of rewards. If you had bothered to read what I said, I stated that my example was in no way balanced, it was for the sake of simplicity.
...

No it would not be trivialised at all. Because hc raiding would still get these items faster.
I am sick and tired of this all or nothing attitude, that we have to continually butter hardcore raiders up with exclusive access to the best gear, and the prettiest gear, and the titles, and the mounts.
How many bribes do these people need?

...

Yes. Why not?


Clearing Heroic would get these items quicker but that's not who 865 vendor gear would be for anyway. If you are the sort of guild that's just making forays into it now/not quite ready for Heroic then raiding Heroic in the intended 850 gear wouldn't be quicker than badges (unless it was a brutally slow system). Your proposed system would make these guilds overgear the early encounters and would do the same for the lower levels of Mythic+, thus undermining two different parts of the endgame.

Good job!

For guilds who are further behind and currently working through Normal it would be even more extreme and they would end up brute forcing mechanics before they learned to deal with them properly. That's going to shovel raiders into Mythic raids that they'll be blocked by for ages. It's a terrible idea for those people too.

For perhaps the first time ever, raiders don't exclusively get the best gear. There are people pushing Mythic+ at high levels and getting better than Mythic raiding drops, there are people getting warforged and titanforged drops from WQs and Mythics and there's almost certainly a lucky player or two who got the stars to align on a super-titanforged LFR item that the Exorsus boys and girls would love. The difference between gear available to super high end raiders and all ever players has never been so close.

If you can choose the best stats available to you directly from a vendor anytime you turn up with the right number of badges then why would you get gear from anywhere else? You'd be swapping a system with multiple sources for one where you vendored all but the luckiest drops and just bought badge items. That would narrow the sources people got items from, not increase them.


He thinks he's right and you won't change his mind... Don't try.
04/10/2016 19:44Posted by Sainttwink
He thinks he's right and you won't change his mind... Don't try.


She. Her. Use the proper pronouns.
Usually I don't care.. but the likes of you don't deserve any leeway.

And no, you won't change my mind, because I *am* right, whereas you and the other there are being dismissive trolls who deep down know you're being dismissive trolls because you're too spineless to post on your mains.
04/10/2016 19:40Posted by Synéa
...

Everyone has done what youre talking about. It's not hard work, it's called playing the game. I cleared normal this week without a single drop. Should I start a thread?


I'm sorry. It's not hard work if other people do it?

Hey tell you what. Go find the biggest, burliest builder you can and tell him that none of what he's done is hard work, because of the 20 other people doing the same thing as him.

...

Clearing Heroic would get these items quicker but that's not who 865 vendor gear would be for anyway. If you are the sort of guild that's just making forays into it now/not quite ready for Heroic then raiding Heroic in the intended 850 gear wouldn't be quicker than badges (unless it was a brutally slow system). Your proposed system would make these guilds overgear the early encounters and would do the same for the lower levels of Mythic+, thus undermining two different parts of the endgame.

Good job!

For guilds who are further behind and currently working through Normal it would be even more extreme and they would end up brute forcing mechanics before they learned to deal with them properly. That's going to shovel raiders into Mythic raids that they'll be blocked by for ages. It's a terrible idea for those people too.

For perhaps the first time ever, raiders don't exclusively get the best gear. There are people pushing Mythic+ at high levels and getting better than Mythic raiding drops, there are people getting warforged and titanforged drops from WQs and Mythics and there's almost certainly a lucky player or two who got the stars to align on a super-titanforged LFR item that the Exorsus boys and girls would love. The difference between gear available to super high end raiders and all ever players has never been so close.

If you can choose the best stats available to you directly from a vendor anytime you turn up with the right number of badges then why would you get gear from anywhere else? You'd be swapping a system with multiple sources for one where you vendored all but the luckiest drops and just bought badge items. That would narrow the sources people got items from, not increase them.


*through gritted teeth*

I already explained why. You simply don't have the ability to comprehend that doing hcs would still be more difficult and more rewarding.

You also don't seem to understand that gaining rewards through tokens would be inherently gated by time and it would be up to blizzard to balance the ratio of rewards. If you had bothered to read what I said, I stated that my example was in no way balanced, it was for the sake of simplicity.


No, I'm telling you most people don't think they should have the best gear with the best stats because they did something once.

And it wouldn't be the 1st time I've punched a builder. Not everyone who plays wow is scared of there own shadow.

Now please carry on your hissy fit. Don't mind me.
04/10/2016 19:46Posted by Synéa
04/10/2016 19:44Posted by Sainttwink
He thinks he's right and you won't change his mind... Don't try.


She. Her. Use the proper pronouns.
Usually I don't care.. but the likes of you don't deserve any leeway.

And no, you won't change my mind, because I *am* right, whereas you and the other there are being dismissive trolls who deep down know you're being dismissive trolls because you're too spineless to post on your mains.


I'm pretty well known on the forums. I never post on my main. You can however meet him saintly#2201.

Anyone noticed when someone losing a debate they call people trolls for simply disagreeing with them?
04/10/2016 19:50Posted by Sainttwink
No, I'm telling you most people don't think they should have the best gear with the best stats because they did something once.


I never said that.
I said that we should have a goal to work towards, and not rely on random chance for everything we do.

And it wouldn't be the 1st time I've punched a builder. Not everyone who plays wow is scared of there own shadow.


https://i.ytimg.com/vi/4M-CT9TVboo/hqdefault.jpg

Now please carry on your hissy fit. Don't mind me.


And you wonder why I call you a troll.
*through gritted teeth*

I already explained why. You simply don't have the ability to comprehend that doing hcs would still be more difficult and more rewarding.

You also don't seem to understand that gaining rewards through tokens would be inherently gated by time and it would be up to blizzard to balance the ratio of rewards. If you had bothered to read what I said, I stated that my example was in no way balanced, it was for the sake of simplicity.


If you can get an item a week on average from badges then with a group of 20 you need to be killing 4 bosses per week to earn the same number of items per raid member. The raid items might not be perfectly optimised for people or there may be too much of one type, whereas the badge gear can be chosen to precisely fill necessary gaps. This mean that a raid team that's currently 4/7 HC would probably end up with better upgrades form badges than clearing that 4/7 HC each week. I think that it's bad design to be introducing such a powerful leg-up so early on in the tier.

For anyone still in Normal or just starting in Heroic your badge gear would be a turbo-boost and could dramatically change the pace at which they work through the dungeons. It would also do the same to Mythic+.

Faster gearing like this is inevitably going to accelerate the speed at which people get through content and make some stuff basically obsolete less than a month after it was first opened and long before it needs to be.

I did bother to read what you said by the way. I understand the desire to work toward items and to be able to track progress on your next upgrade - to get a sense that you're in control of your character progression. I appreciate that impulse and can see why some people really value it. It doesn't bother me but obviously YMMV.

Ultimately though, the current system has already given you (and many of us) items that allow us to outgear current content too quickly and adding a badge system that promises guaranteed loot of an even greater value is only going to make that worse.
04/10/2016 20:26Posted by Irongym
If you can get an item a week on average from badges then with a group of 20 you need to be killing 4 bosses per week to earn the same number of items per raid member. The raid items might not be perfectly optimised for people or there may be too much of one type, whereas the badge gear can be chosen to precisely fill necessary gaps. This mean that a raid team that's currently 4/7 HC would probably end up with better upgrades form badges than clearing that 4/7 HC each week. I think that it's bad design to be introducing such a powerful leg-up so early on in the tier.


I never said every week. You're making more assumptions.

For anyone still in Normal or just starting in Heroic your badge gear would be a turbo-boost and could dramatically change the pace at which they work through the dungeons. It would also do the same to Mythic+.

Faster gearing like this is inevitably going to accelerate the speed at which people get through content and make some stuff basically obsolete less than a month after it was first opened and long before it needs to be.


I never said faster. I said fairer.

I did bother to read what you said by the way. I understand the desire to work toward items and to be able to track progress on your next upgrade - to get a sense that you're in control of your character progression. I appreciate that impulse and can see why some people really value it. It doesn't bother me but obviously YMMV.

Ultimately though, the current system has already given you (and many of us) items that allow us to outgear current content too quickly and adding a badge system that promises guaranteed loot of an even greater value is only going to make that worse.


What current content am I outgearing? What are you talking about?
Some people have gotten absurdly lucky, yes. And raids haven't collapsed as a result.

Yes, the "top guilds" will find ways to game and abuse the system to their advantage in order to steamroll through content but in case you haven't noticed they've done that anyway, with teams of 20/20 legendary equips downing mythic EN in a single week.
I never said faster. I said fairer.


It's a new source of high level gear on top of current methods. How would it not be faster?

What current content am I outgearing? What are you talking about?


You're 855 after clearing Normal fewer than 3 times and doing 20+ Mythics/Mythic+. Lots of people are in similar positions (I'm not singling you out) and that's gear progression much faster than previous expansions.

Extra 865s at any reasonable rate is only going to exaggerate this.
04/10/2016 20:57Posted by Irongym
What current content am I outgearing? What are you talking about?


You're 855 after clearing Normal fewer than 3 times and doing 20+ Mythics/Mythic+. Lots of people are in similar positions (I'm not singling you out) and that's gear progression much faster than previous expansions.

Extra 865s at any reasonable rate is only going to exaggerate this.


So what? My progression should be stalled because more people might clear EN hc?

And? So it's okay for Russian scripters to blast through EN mythic but heaven forbid that people have fun and feel rewarded because oh noes people are gearing too fast.

And in case it hasn't occured to you, this is happening because the ludicrous RNG of Legion is creating a huge disparity of haves and have nots which is just getting worse as the haves get to clear more and more content while the have nots are left behind in the dust.
The system I propose would give parity instead of this current lunacy.
04/10/2016 18:17Posted by Synéa

Citation needed. Many of us put a lot of time and "skill" into this game, we're just not fortunate enough to be accepted into the top guilds.
And I mean the legitimate top guilds, not scripters and beta abusers who exploit bugs to get legendaries for the entire team and know every way to bug the raid bosses.


This is of course assuming that they are actually clearing content the right way. It is derived from the assumption that people put in a certain amount of time and can therefore clear a certain level of content (assuming they meet some average gear requirement). For instance: lots of time invested + very skilled = mythic raiding, lots of time invested + medium skilled = heroic raiding, medium time invested + very skilled = heroic raiding or mythic+ dungeons. Meaning if you are skilled and have the time, then you should get better gear or some other exclusive items.

Not being accepted into guilds is of course another issue (I still remember playing a rogue in TBC - was not that fun at times)

04/10/2016 18:17Posted by Synéa

Except people *ARE* getting 865 and 870 gear for doing next to nothing while others are doing hard work and getting garbage because of RNG. So do you approve of this?


All in all I am really talking about two problems - the one at hand and a derived one.

I think we agree one of the problems: Too much RNG inside the RNG inside the RNG. I just have a problem with the token system that you theorized since it makes getting gear intended for higher tiers available for clearing easier content. People want to see the content, finish the story, ect., which is the other problem, which is why we have LFR, which in turn should supersede a catchup mechanism such as tokens.

IMO, it would be better to just remove the RNG elements allowing upgrades to people who you are, correctly, referring to as "getting gear for doing next to nothing while others work their asses off and get !@#$", and instead make it clearer where to go for the rest of us for upgrades and character/gear progression.

04/10/2016 18:17Posted by Synéa

Gear should not be a measurement of anything. Gear is what enables us to progress our characters and do more challenging content.


Yes and character (read: gear) progression should come from overcoming harder and harder challenges. This can, in my optics, of course be mythic+ dungeons for people who don't want to do heroic or mythic raiding. Which still takes some skill and time, hence my comparison between gear being a measurement of your skill level. This is of course not the case currently.

-----------

Sorry 'bout the ol' wall o' text there..
04/10/2016 20:57Posted by Irongym
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You're 855 after clearing Normal fewer than 3 times and doing 20+ Mythics/Mythic+. Lots of people are in similar positions (I'm not singling you out) and that's gear progression much faster than previous expansions.

Extra 865s at any reasonable rate is only going to exaggerate this.


So what? My progression should be stalled because more people might clear EN hc?

And? So it's okay for Russian scripters to blast through EN mythic but heaven forbid that people have fun and feel rewarded because oh noes people are gearing too fast.

And in case it hasn't occured to you, this is happening because the ludicrous RNG of Legion is creating a huge disparity of haves and have nots which is just getting worse as the haves get to clear more and more content while the have nots are left behind in the dust.
The system I propose would give parity instead of this current lunacy.


Your progression isn't being stalled in any meaningful way. You have a gear level consistent with needing few to no drops from EN Normal or less than Mythic+5. In previous expansions you'd have a comparably lower ilvl for the same level of progress. On top of that, you got a gear upgrade 2 days ago; you're categorically not being starved of useful drops.

Previous expansions have been criticised because people felt that they ran out of things to do - if WQs/HCs/Mythics/LFR/Normal Raiding/Mythic+ (below a certain level) all become valuable only for the badges they drop then we're speeding towards those same complaints.

The Legion legendary system is a little out of whack but Warforged/Titanforged is doing a lot to make many different sources of gear remain relevant for longer. I personally think that's a good thing.

I'm also a little surprised that you can't see how this affects people behind you on the curve (of which there are many) - additional 865s would have a massive impact for them and undermine the progression they're making now.
...

No it would not be trivialised at all. Because hc raiding would still get these items faster.
I am sick and tired of this all or nothing attitude, that we have to continually butter hardcore raiders up with exclusive access to the best gear, and the prettiest gear, and the titles, and the mounts.
How many bribes do these people need?

...

Yes. Why not?


Clearing Heroic would get these items quicker but that's not who 865 vendor gear would be for anyway. If you are the sort of guild that's just making forays into it now/not quite ready for Heroic then raiding Heroic in the intended 850 gear wouldn't be quicker than badges (unless it was a brutally slow system). Your proposed system would make these guilds overgear the early encounters and would do the same for the lower levels of Mythic+, thus undermining two different parts of the endgame.

Good job!

For guilds who are further behind and currently working through Normal it would be even more extreme and they would end up brute forcing mechanics before they learned to deal with them properly. That's going to shovel raiders into Mythic raids that they'll be blocked by for ages. It's a terrible idea for those people too.

For perhaps the first time ever, raiders don't exclusively get the best gear. There are people pushing Mythic+ at high levels and getting better than Mythic raiding drops, there are people getting warforged and titanforged drops from WQs and Mythics and there's almost certainly a lucky player or two who got the stars to align on a super-titanforged LFR item that the Exorsus boys and girls would love. The difference between gear available to super high end raiders and all ever players has never been so close.

If you can choose the best stats available to you directly from a vendor anytime you turn up with the right number of badges then why would you get gear from anywhere else? You'd be swapping a system with multiple sources for one where you vendored all but the luckiest drops and just bought badge items. That would narrow the sources people got items from, not increase them.


No Vendors that make gear obsolete ever. No, No No.

This was what caused the Welfare Epics issue in the first place

"I don't want to do progression again"

"I'm a Raider, why should I have to rerun dungeons for every character"

And so on.

Progression needs to be maintained and actually work.

Right now it's far easier to just grind WQs, never set foot in Heroic or Mythic or LFR and get titanforged drops or farm bloods.

Get bloods, it's now just a matter of Gold to get i850

Get Titanforged, that's one less crafted item you need.

Not to take away from crafting at all, I'm glad it's viable but it's partly responsible for the content bypass we're seeing right now.

It's why I firmly believe LFR should be tuned up and the drops tuned up to compensate.

Progression should be maintained, right now it's pointless doing anything but WQs because RNG makes all content bar Normal/HC EN not worth the time and effort.
And Irongym proves, beyond doubt, two things in last page or two of this thread.

1) Some Raiders seem to think they are somehow 1337, but are so insecure in that 133tness that they don't want anyone else to have access to the same iLevel gear, even if that alternative route takes 20 times longer and cost 10 times more.

2) Blizzard really should allow some people to remove their Level and Class from under their forum avatar.

All The Best
Since they have transformed this game into a bad copy of Diablo 3 already, they should at least give us the option to disenchant items and farm mats to upgrade our items. Otherwise it will keep blowing hard. Rest in pieces anyway, a sub based mmo shouldn't have been shattered this much.
05/10/2016 10:20Posted by Gorlacon
And Irongym proves, beyond doubt, two things in last page or two of this thread.

1) Some Raiders seem to think they are somehow 1337, but are so insecure in that 133tness that they don't want anyone else to have access to the same iLevel gear, even if that alternative route takes 20 times longer and cost 10 times more.

2) Blizzard really should allow some people to remove their Level and Class from under their forum avatar.

All The Best


1) No, that's not correct. All the raiders want is that people put as much actual effort into getting their gear, as well as having as challenging content as they have, to get the gear. You can spend as much time as you like grinding something, it's never going to be as difficult as raiding. Time does not equate to difficulty, though difficult content takes for the average raider a long time to clear. It's not about just investing time, it's also about doing content that's more difficult than picking flowers or grind heroic dungeons.

They should perhaps just remove gear from world quests and remove legendary from emissary chests. Then move it over to what it used to be, the best gear dropping from higher end raids and legendary as a rare drop from raids with a long farming routine. But I guess that's not what this is about. People want to spend a bit of time getting gear, without having to do difficult things such as learn tactics. They want to sit on a mountain top for 20 hours and think that it equates to wiping over and over on a raid boss. And of course sitting on that mountain top for 20 hours should reward them the same gear as those who've just spent 10 hours wiping on a raid boss, because evidently it's as difficult sitting on that mountain top as it was wiping for 10 hours on that raid boss.
Gear went from being a reward for completing content to the only thing most of the players aspire to.
05/10/2016 10:20Posted by Gorlacon
And Irongym proves, beyond doubt, two things in last page or two of this thread.

1) Some Raiders seem to think they are somehow 1337, but are so insecure in that 133tness that they don't want anyone else to have access to the same iLevel gear, even if that alternative route takes 20 times longer and cost 10 times more.

2) Blizzard really should allow some people to remove their Level and Class from under their forum avatar.

All The Best


There's a difference between alternative progression and outright making other forms of progression useless. I'm arguing that we need all forms of progression to be viable, right now only WQ grinding and blood of Sargeras farming is. This is because of RNG being more overcooked than food from Nomis kitchen.

It's why I drew similarly between crafted and lucky WQ drops to Welfare Epics, takes a few hours, anyone can do it, minimal effort required, rewards better loot than an entire Dungeon Tier and LFR. That doesn't encourage doing other content, it discourages it.

Now if LFR was a bit more difficult and gave a good iLevel (similar to normal mythic) then you'd have another method of accessible gear.

Moving normal Mythic to LFD adds another method, all done without changing a thing about WQ grinding.

Then you add a reward of blood of Sargeras from Heroic per day of 4, that's now a viable income of Bloods.

Of course you then remove the bad 805/810 rolls from chests and pvp WQs, even more ways to gear without feeling negatively impacted.

So more methods that are viable, less reliance on RNG, more content gets done, how is that a bad thing?
I want to EARN my gear and progression, through hard work and dedication, not be constricted by stupid time-gates and RNG.

At launch it wasn't a big issue since you could craft 850 gear with enough farming and time spent on professions, but now the bar has been raised to 860+, you can't craft gear at that ilvl, so an avid crafter will be left behind.

The legendaries are the greatest offenders, where it depends purely on RNG if you get them or not, I'm already seeing people demanding at least one legendary for invites into raids, so either I get super lucky or that's it, I'm left behind and there goes my progression, no one will invite me to raids/mythic+ anymore.

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