The people who are complaining

General
26/09/2016 12:57Posted by Redoctober


So to sum it up, this expansion has:
- adequately rewarded content for raiders;
- adequately rewarded content for pvpers;
- adequately rewarded content for dungeoneers;
- adequately rewarded content for people who enjoy world quests.
- side little activities, such as pet battles and others.

Which makes me wonder, what exactly do people want, when they demand "more" content?


or, you could sum this expansion up like this:
-Want to see the end of each zones quests: Do dungeons
-Want progress your class hall: Do dungeons
-Want to level crafting: Do dungeons
-Want to unlock the third slot on your weapon: Do dungeons

Everywhere you turn, blizzard tries to, to a much greater extent than any previous expansion, guide you into dungeons.

Obviously, most expansion has hidden the "best" gear & crafting-patterns in dungeons and/or raids, but even for those of us who don't enjoy that aspect of the game there's been a lot of stuff to do and a sense of progress. For my part it's been leveling alts and advancing their crafting, grinding rep or just seeing how far I can get them, gear wise, without setting foot in a dungeon.

Here though, unless you're willing to run through a bunch of dungeons, you very quickly run into walls blocking your progress giving the characters, at best, a "half-finished" feeling, which makes it feel even less meaningful to work on the parts you actually can work on.

This is obviously only my take on it and the reason I'm quickly loosing interest in legion, everyone will have their reasons to like or dislike parts of the expansion.
26/09/2016 12:57Posted by Redoctober
26/09/2016 11:26Posted by Draine
Non-Raiders will say they want high quality open world content, and some will resent that they cannot just toddle of and craft etc and say that the open world content is poor/shallow and gated behind content they have no interest in.


But that's just it. This expansion caters to far more playstyles then just raiders. And when I say that it "caters", I don't just mean that there is a bunch of non-rewarding stuff to do which is not a raid. That's something every expansion had until now, even WoD (you could farm rep, but it was useless, and so on). This time around, non-raid content actually, for the first time in a long while, offers rewards that are almost on par (if not even at complete parity) with raiding. PvP - both Arenas and Rated Battlegrounds - can award super high item level items if you're high enough rated. Mythic+ dungeons can give gear on par with mythic raiding, at high enough difficulty. Even world quests, which are not exactly the peak of difficulty (that's not really the point to them - they're supposed to be little relaxing choirs for us to do) give on occasion really decent rewards. LFR will start next week for those not seeking difficulty. Raids themselves have multiple levels of difficulty, and mythic+ dungeons have even smoother scaling of difficulty.

So to sum it up, this expansion has:
- adequately rewarded content for raiders;
- adequately rewarded content for pvpers;
- adequately rewarded content for dungeoneers;
- adequately rewarded content for people who enjoy world quests.
- side little activities, such as pet battles and others.

Which makes me wonder, what exactly do people want, when they demand "more" content?


I have done some PvP and so far, PvP is not even remotely rewarding. Barely any Mark of Honors, not a single item above 815. There are no new weapons to go after besides one look for each artifact weapon and it is a massive grind too. Armors is locked behind horrible RNG instead of currency. There is no new PvP BGs, and they ruined Ashran so can't go back and enjoy that either. "PvP" World Quests has also been nerfed so hard that they are not worth it anymore.

So far I have not found dungeons to be very rewarding at all, as the drop rate on loot seems really freaking low, especially when it comes to armor pieces, which is the only interesting items you get from dungeons. There are no cool new weapons to be had anymore so less interesting loot. Don't care at all about stats really, it is a meaningless progression system that is just another form of time gating. Can't do that content until you are at that ilvl etc etc.

I can't say much for raids, but I do agree that these seem more rewarding than before. As a warrior I can actually collect both the Paladin and DK armor from raids, and this I really do like. In WoD, LFR armor loot was mostly bad as we did not get tier sets anymore. But now they return in full force and that is great, I see myself do LFR much more than in WoD. But again, no new cool weapons from raids unfortunately so again only armor to go after.

Now World Quests was very enjoyable at first, very rewarding with nice gear. But after a while the rewards just turns into boring AP items, order resources and small amounts of gold. I would not mind it as much if not for the horrible rewards you get from the different reputations. Not a single mount from any of them? The gear is nothing special and just a bunch of useless profession recipes. I find myself only going after rep to get the pathfinder achievement.

There may be a lot of content in Legion, but a lot of it is only rewarding for a certain type of people. For someone like me who cares more about just how my character looks instead of how much stats he has, this expansion is very lacking. No new weapons besides a few artifact weapon models, harder to collect old and new PvP items. For those seeking challenge, the new Mythic+ is probably an awesome feature. But I don't care at all for it, as I don't play this game anymore for challenge.

What truly keeps me playing now is the stories I have yet to finish. Suramar is an excellent zone and there are lots of cool quests to find by exploring the zones. I have a bunch of alts I can level up too. And unique class stories makes it more interesting, but I still think the options to level alts is worse now than before. As we have to do the same quests over and over to level. Doing dungeons only now is too slow. Before we at least had the option to quest for level or do dungeons. And since there are so many things gated behind rep and time I can't see myself playing alts much. They really should make Rep account bound. And seeing that unlocking different artifact weapons requires doing the same stuff on all characters, makes for a very tedious way of unlocking new weapons. And extremely repetetive....
At this point I'm dropping world quests completely.

They are unrewarding compared to the time and resource they require, especially the withered army training since I don't have 8 hours to farm mana for it.

Thanks for the stealthnerf on the arcwine respawn by the way, truly a genius move, nothing less than what I expected from Blizzard.
26/09/2016 11:55Posted by Lumeny
Or is it my idea?


Yes.

(well you did ask)
26/09/2016 12:57Posted by Redoctober
26/09/2016 11:26Posted by Draine
Non-Raiders will say they want high quality open world content, and some will resent that they cannot just toddle of and craft etc and say that the open world content is poor/shallow and gated behind content they have no interest in.


But that's just it. This expansion caters to far more playstyles then just raiders. And when I say that it "caters", I don't just mean that there is a bunch of non-rewarding stuff to do which is not a raid. That's something every expansion had until now, even WoD (you could farm rep, but it was useless, and so on). This time around, non-raid content actually, for the first time in a long while, offers rewards that are almost on par (if not even at complete parity) with raiding. PvP - both Arenas and Rated Battlegrounds - can award super high item level items if you're high enough rated. Mythic+ dungeons can give gear on par with mythic raiding, at high enough difficulty. Even world quests, which are not exactly the peak of difficulty (that's not really the point to them - they're supposed to be little relaxing choirs for us to do) give on occasion really decent rewards. LFR will start next week for those not seeking difficulty. Raids themselves have multiple levels of difficulty, and mythic+ dungeons have even smoother scaling of difficulty.

So to sum it up, this expansion has:
- adequately rewarded content for raiders;
- adequately rewarded content for pvpers;
- adequately rewarded content for dungeoneers;
- adequately rewarded content for people who enjoy world quests.
- side little activities, such as pet battles and others.

Which makes me wonder, what exactly do people want, when they demand "more" content?


Having seven walls to paint and watch dry is not more exciting that having just one wall to paint and watch dry. IMO those extra 6 walls are not "more content".
If you're leveling a few alts you notice really quickly that there isn't much variety to be had:
  • you are forced to do every zone for a bit until you've reached friendly with each faction or you won't be able to unlock world quests
  • after over 3 weeks I've seen every world quest there is with the exception of world bosses and already doing them on 2 characters is nothing but a chore
  • being forced to get revered for pathfinder while the reputation vendors offer nothing but junk for the most part is just laughable
  • the gating mechanism of having to do 30 world quests to being able to continue the order hall campaign is just pathetic - tough I like the irony of how the quest is called on my rogue: "Pruning the garden" - guess a slight hint how pruned the long-term fun is
  • I don't to pvp nor pet battles so I can't speak for that
  • the dungeons are only pretty for the first few runs after that it's nothing but speed-running
  • normal EN was fun and now unto HC
  • professions are barely worth it with how utterly simple they are and only a few are really useful - did I mention gating recipes behind a grinfest?
  • the recipe "upgrades" that only lower the mats required and don't do anything to improve the crafting result just blows my mind
  • the complete RNG that crafting professions are now - on my hunter with LW I have 1 "base" set for leather and mail and 1 "epic" set for leather and mail which you have to acquire via recipes and you'll have to constantly waste resources to get the stats you want because there is no mechanic for re-rolling stats
  • the only new things left are the last few suaramar quest lines and after that it's pretty much only raiding or mythics/+
  • silly me: who wants to pick up a sin rogue for mythics
There is plenty to do if you're happy running dungeons and raids all i want is profession quests removed from instanced nonsense and i will complain less.
(they aren't worth the queues to obtain 815 goggles in a mythic dungeon.)

Dungeons and Raids are not my thing been playing for 4 years this way I ran dungeons numerous times before level 80 then i give up dealing with gogogo attitudes and such like i play for fun and getting stressed out because i'm not keeping up with the rest of the dungeon that are already 2 bosses ahead is not fun.

My game was level my range of Alt characters, max professions on most of them run old raids and rep for mounts, legion has no reputation mounts to grind for broken isles pathfinder isn't worth working on until you know the requirements for further stages Suramar though gorgeous is unbearable due to Ancient Mana farming i do not mind it in small doses but in 24 hours of absence you need 50 mana per NPC to get the next quest current quest I'm stuck on is 800 mana i just genuinely do not want to keep collecting purple stones :(

World Quests were ok until they decided 98% of them will be Artifact power,Order resources and pittance of gold.
I do not want to run kill 18 dozen harpies to clear the emissary cache daily not getting anything from the 4 quests except maybe 100g and 500 resources.
I pretty much stopped doing them last week.

This is just my opinion and before you all moan about it, Yes I'm considering leaving I just need to find something else to do with my so little spare time first.

Legion looks good in some ways but ending everything i enjoy doing into dungeon content is turning me off.
Same dungeon with 10 difficulties is not content. Nor is a raid with 4 difficulties. It's the same crap, just with different numbers.

That's a lack of content. And an easy way for Blizz to pretend they're delivering content when it's the same thing just scaled up or down.
One problem is that thousands of players have little or no friends left in this game, several not so good expansions have destroyed lots of guilds.

That means that a lot of players are now so called solo players. And where they before could count on experiencing the content together with friends in a relaxed atmosphere, they are now thrown into the LFG queue, if they want to participate in all the end game stuff.

And tbh, going from all friends and family, to only strangers with huge pressure on iLvL, isen't always a very nice experience.

I can't really speak for anyone but my self, but this has led to me not wanting to do more than the odd HC dungeon, cos im a very relaxed player, that is usually way behind on the iLvL requiremens for LFG.

And ofc, this reduses the content quite a bit, and then i get bored. Im using the companion app two times a day, but it can go three and four days between every time i actually bother to log in to the game.

I would like to do mythic with friends, but there aren't enough friends left for it, and I don't really want to do LFG every week, not even every month.

It would help if all profession quests and lore progression were put into HC, or if "normal mythic" got into the LFD queue. But I don't really see that happening, so yeah, i'm already bored to tears of Legion.
Im sick from work, due to a dislocated knee, and now my workplace just shut down. So I have alot of time to play. Besides a little working out some rehabilitation, i spend most of my days playing this game (and a little hots) and i can spend most of each day doing it
Reading this thread leads me to ask this question; how do you create fresh content that lasts for more than a month without rehashing and reusing certain aspects in the game? While answering this question also try to think from a business perspective, i.e that it costs money to make all of this, and naturally the money spent on making it should be earned back with a profit.
26/09/2016 11:58Posted by Melthazina
No one is telling what others should enjoy. The problem is that people are complaining that they are bored because there's nothing to do. When pointed out what they can do, they retort with "I don't want to do that".

That's the core issue with the "I don't have anything to do", there's things to do but you don't want to do that.


I would be interested to hear what things actually these are maybe it's something i missed. After you reach around, 840 ilvl the only content to progress is basically mythic+ (old challenge mode) and raids. All the rest is just grinding for the sake of grinding, they don't actually offer something. So yes, when people say "I don't have anything to do" they mean i don't raid and i don't want to do dungeons with a timer.
26/09/2016 14:56Posted by Lumeny
26/09/2016 11:58Posted by Melthazina
No one is telling what others should enjoy. The problem is that people are complaining that they are bored because there's nothing to do. When pointed out what they can do, they retort with "I don't want to do that".

That's the core issue with the "I don't have anything to do", there's things to do but you don't want to do that.


I would be interested to hear what things actually these are maybe it's something i missed. After you reach around, 840 ilvl the only content to progress is basically mythic+ (old challenge mode) and raids. All the rest is just grinding for the sake of grinding, they don't actually offer something. So yes, when people say "I don't have anything to do" they mean i don't raid and i don't want to do dungeons with a timer.


Things to do would include world quests, farming AP for your artifact, levelling alts, doing PvP, doing dungeons, reputation grinding, doing mythic, doing mythic+ (including perfecting your time), in other words grinding. This is an MMO after all and MMOs are at their core, grinding. How meaningful you find it, is sort of irrelevant, if you start questioning why you're doing it, then perhaps an MMO isn't the game for you, because the core of an MMO is insanity in itself; doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result.

Been playing MMOs many years now and they all boil down to grinding. If you are to summon up what MMOs are about, grinding is about as perfect a description as you can come up with. And it's not everybody's cup of tea. But "demanding" that there are fresh and new content that isn't grind related isn't going to happen in an MMO.
26/09/2016 15:06Posted by Melthazina
Things to do would include world quests, farming AP for your artifact, levelling alts, doing PvP, doing dungeons, reputation grinding, doing mythic, doing mythic+ (including perfecting your time), in other words grinding. This is an MMO after all and MMOs are at their core, grinding. How meaningful you find it, is sort of irrelevant, if you start questioning why you're doing it, then perhaps an MMO isn't the game for you, because the core of an MMO is insanity in itself; doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result.


Did you read at all my question? I guess you didn't this is why you started lecturing about MMO's and how they are not for me etc. Yeah, I know. Since you play MMORPGs for so long as you claim then you should know they are all about a virtual world to explore and develop your character. So, now i am asking again how you develop and progress your character unless you run instanced content? Or is this not an MMORPG anymore but a MOBA?
26/09/2016 12:19Posted by Melthazina
Thing is, that's an MMO, the very essence of any MMO, regardless of MMO out there.

No. Modes are not essence of MMO. It never was. It didn't exist in old WoW. Amount of dungeons and raids was more than twice bigger than it is now. But now we have modes to replace content.

26/09/2016 14:51Posted by Melthazina
Reading this thread leads me to ask this question; how do you create fresh content that lasts for more than a month without rehashing and reusing certain aspects in the game? While answering this question also try to think from a business perspective, i.e that it costs money to make all of this, and naturally the money spent on making it should be earned back with a profit.

Rehashing and reusing aspects of game is fine. Using a simple mode switch to present old content as new content is not fine. Do you really not see difference?
Speed run dungeons with random people are just not something I have any interest in doing at all. I barely even like regular dungeons but I will do them when needed.

I prefer to raid but that's just two days a week in my guild.

Usually I like to level alts when things start getting a bit slow on my main for their professions but this expansion has made that a thing I no longer can do as I do not want to go in dungeons on alt characters that I don't play well.

I love what they did with professions in this expansion with the questing, that was a real nice touch to professions but forcing people into dungeons for recipes was not. It is an awful move that has left me feeling like there is no point even leveling my alts.

As for PvP I am on a PvE server because I have no interest in that and never did. I like raiding, levelling alts and world content usually.
I'll give my two cents, my "I don't have anything" to do comes from a simple reason my class and spec choice, nobody wants me, and i don't blame them, but running HC Dungeons over and over again get boring yes i could try pvp, but i simply don't find the appeal in that and i get frustrated very fast with it and that's bad, i play to relax not get stressed.

Ofc i still have stuff to do, so it's not all bad, but i feel that there may be other people in the same situation i described.
26/09/2016 15:16Posted by Lumeny
Did you read at all my question? I guess you didn't this is why you started lecturing about MMO's and how they are not for me etc. Yeah, I know. Since you play MMORPGs for so long as you claim then you should know they are all about a virtual world to explore and develop your character. So, now i am asking again how you develop and progress your character unless you run instanced content? Or is this not an MMORPG anymore but a MOBA?


The character progress is the RPG part (Hero's journey if you like). How you get there is the MMO part. If you like your roll-playing you could say that exploring the depths of the world, facing dangers and slay monsters, you gain experience, knowledge and treasures that builds your character. What, you thought the hero's work was going into the world, explore it and get your treasure without danger?

No. Modes are not essence of MMO. It never was. It didn't exist in old WoW. Amount of dungeons and raids was more than twice bigger than it is now. But now we have modes to replace content.


Also remember that in Vanilla, once past the level the dungeons became obsolete. You had no reason to visit the wailing caverns once you were level 60, you had no reason going through Dire Maul either. Quantity does not equate to quality, and the major problem in WoW in Vanilla was that there weren't that much content at end game. In the beginning per example there were only 2 raids and few dungeons rewarding for level 60 characters. That's why Blizzard introduced heroic difficulty in The burning crusade, to extend the lifespan on dungeons beyond their initial level range.

26/09/2016 15:18Posted by Wipsie
Rehashing and reusing aspects of game is fine. Using a simple mode switch to present old content as new content is not fine. Do you really not see difference?


Been like that since The burning crusade for very obvious reasons. It takes months to make, test and deliver a new dungeon into the game. Having different difficulties - and now also the keystone feature - means that the dungeons stay relevant and challenging long past their "normal" time frame. Which also means that they can spend more time on developing world content, which they are and will be released in later patches (such as the continuation of the Suramar quest line).
So, not doing Mythic = you haven't played the game?

Watch out, we got a "elite" player over here!
26/09/2016 14:41Posted by ßãßçä
One problem is that thousands of players have little or no friends left in this game, several not so good expansions have destroyed lots of guilds.

That means that a lot of players are now so called solo players. And where they before could count on experiencing the content together with friends in a relaxed atmosphere, they are now thrown into the LFG queue, if they want to participate in all the end game stuff.

And tbh, going from all friends and family, to only strangers with huge pressure on iLvL, isen't always a very nice experience.

I can't really speak for anyone but my self, but this has led to me not wanting to do more than the odd HC dungeon, cos im a very relaxed player, that is usually way behind on the iLvL requiremens for LFG.

And ofc, this reduses the content quite a bit, and then i get bored. Im using the companion app two times a day, but it can go three and four days between every time i actually bother to log in to the game.

I would like to do mythic with friends, but there aren't enough friends left for it, and I don't really want to do LFG every week, not even every month.

It would help if all profession quests and lore progression were put into HC, or if "normal mythic" got into the LFD queue. But I don't really see that happening, so yeah, i'm already bored to tears of Legion.


Even though I am lucky enough to have a few friends left who play, this certainly hits home. The problem is this forms a vicious cycle with the 'lack of community' feeling many players have. A feeling of a lack of community causes people to leave which in turn causes people who once had friends in the game to feel a lack of community,

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum