Night Elf mages

Story
Can somebody explain to me how this is legit/explained? I can't get my head around it.
13/11/2016 13:06Posted by Dariun
Can somebody explain to me how this is legit/explained? I can't get my head around it.


Kaldorei Highborne, aka arcanists/spellcasters ... ring a bell? ^^ That lot is ancient and part of Night Elven society since time immemorial :)
I'd suggest reading up on the Shen'dralar lore.

The Shen'dralar are the last remnant of the ancient Highborne of old, who were apart of the Quel'dorei Empire from ages past. Further to that, these Highborne never sided with Azshara and the demons, during the WotA, mainly because they were either not informed or chose to step away from her side. They defended Eldre'thalas to the last with the help from Goldrinn. They remained in Eldre'thalas for years after the Sundering and remained in their own exile.

It wasn't until the earthquakes began to happen and Deathwing was ready to emerge, did the Shen'dralar leave Eldre'thalas behind and seek out their brethren.

Now, the Night Elves in general, at this point, were starting to ease towards the Arcane. Many who were in Northrend, during the War against Arthas, worked alongside the High Elves and some Night Elves began joining the Silver Covenant and indeed some High Elven Magi were allowed inside Darnassus. These little things were quite large influences on Night Elf society at the time. This could be a contributing factor as to why Tyrande allowed the Shen'dralar to rejoin the Night Elf society and start teaching the ways of the Arcane to Kaldorei Apprentices.
13/11/2016 13:06Posted by Dariun
Can somebody explain to me how this is legit/explained? I can't get my head around it.

well it will help if you let us know why you don't think they're or might not be legit.

and we can go from there.
Night Elves and Arcane mages are very good combination.

Mages are the exact reason what made Night Elves more powerful than ancient Trolls... without it. The Night Elves would not even exist today. Whole Kalimdor/Eastern Kingdom would have been the Troll Lands.

Arcane was proven to be extremely powerful, so they banned it because of safety, but later they removed the ban because the Night Elves once again needed their arcane mages allies... for a reason tho, they were under heavy pressure of Twillight Hammer, Death Wing, aggressive Garrosh's Horde.
13/11/2016 13:06Posted by Dariun
Can somebody explain to me how this is legit/explained? I can't get my head around it.


I think the problem might be the mistaken belief that druidsm was all there was to the night elves.

You can be forgiven if WoW is your only experience of them, especially if you played horde, however, if you played them, and better looked outside the game to the lore books and their WC3, introduction, you would not be surprised by this at all, in fact you'd probably have been looking forward to it and would be quite pleased to see blizzard do the Nightborne and the Highborne like they have, very prominently.

There is always more to races than you've experienced, and blizzard always does new things with them, or shows you new things that existed in lore but weren't in the game yet. They did this with blood elves in their introduction in TBC, before that, it was hard to see one, almost like they didn't exist, then boom, so many - blizzard was showing you a part that was always there, but not yet in the game. They do that also i addition to extending, and expanding that lore when it shows up or do entirely new things. Makes it more exciting.

Now night elves have the arcane fantasy, the nature fantasy and the priestly fantasy.
To be honest, if it wasn't for the lore behind Night Elf Mages, I probably wouldn't be as interested in the Night Elf lore. Highborne lore is such an amazing introduction to Elven lore as a whole. It sets the stage for so many other races like the Satyr, High Elves and Naga and now (barring Satyr) the Helfs and Naga established two huge kingdoms, them being Nazjatar and Silvermoon
I'm not slamming NE mages, i've rolled one myself.

But i thought Darnassus wad very anti arcane?
14/11/2016 15:45Posted by Dariun
I'm not slamming NE mages, i've rolled one myself.

But i thought Darnassus wad very anti arcane?

This post really explains a lot. http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17613702273

have a read. Night elves have never been anti-arcane, just anti magical abuse, their abstinence from using the arcane for spells was not an abstinence from the presence of the arcane - as we are told they were totally suffused by it and used the physical properties of the well to surround themselves and the lands with Moonwells.

What they did do was not use it for spells on pain of death then exile - because to them the risk was far too high - (they believed using the arcane would definitely draw the legion back) - they felt they couldn't trust the Zin'Azshari highborne with them who's expert opinion informed them that ways could be devised to use magic without attracting extra-dimensional attention (i.e. demons from the twisting nether) however after the events of the sundering to which most night elves blamed the Zin'Azshari highborne, and the arcane addiction they were riddled with, their counsel was not heeded.

This was not a hate for the arcane, but rather a loathing to use it, as it's use had previously brought the burning legion. This was the view of the night elves of northern kalimdor up until the 3rd war - when the Legioni did return.

You have to note that naturally, views would have changed since then because of the events.

1. The burning legion DID return. The primary reason for abstaining from magical usage was to prevent this.
2. The northern kalimdor night elves were in isolation in the northern forests and Hyjal - did not mix to discover sooner that heavy magical usage could be shielded from the twisting nether, something the High elves achieved quite early on.
Now out of isolation, all such concerns aren't really relevant because of the solutions and events.
3. The final concern of arcane addiction has very recently been cured thanks to the Suramar (Broken Isles) night elf groups (mainly the nightborne rebellion and the Valewalker druids) - this was the other reason night elven leadership was reluctant to over the arcane.

You should read Wolfheart the novel, that takes place just after the cataclysm, where it really goes over Daranassus' reaction to magic. It's quite positive with the exception of Maiev who tries to drum up hatred.

You should note from there and bear in mind that Darnassus is quite new, it didn't exist before the 3rd war, and the night elves are more than just druids or priests. The northern group are a people for the first time since the Sundering rather than a collection of various Orders and disciplines.

Wolfheart and Cataclysm quests show night elves very quick and eager to embrace the arcane once Malfurion and Tyrande give the go ahead. Wolfheart explains that at first there was some difficulty becuase of the long and deepseated resentments towards the highborne, but they were working to have an agreement with the highborne magic users to allow them to be amongst them freely, without restrictions on their use of magic being imposed and the freedom for them to maintain their own ways, and their own culture.

Malfurion and Tyrande promised that this would be permitted and in Wolfheart they are waiting for everyone amongst the ruling council to come round which Malfurion tells the highborne group is expected, but will take a little while yet - as the highborne were getting a bit impatient.

Suffice it to say, despite Maive's effort, the night elves come round pretty quick for such a momentous shift - but it seems surprising if you don't understand that their reason for arcane abstention was not as emotionally driven as expected.

I'm not denying there aren't emotional issues, the sundering was very traumatic, and night elves of northern kalimdor have had millennia of blaming arcane usage for it and in particular the highborne. So they cautiously approach reconciliation.

This is highlighted by the druids referring to Estulan and the highborne group that approached the night elves as uncorrupted highborne, and again we are seeing a repeat in-game with the interaction of the night elves with the nightborne. Initially Tyrande is cautious and wary, but in time comes round and works hard to foster relationships.

it should be noted, whiles some like Maiev would hate magic users for the harm its users brought the world, this is not the view of most northern kalimdor night elves at all, they rather only refrained from the use of magic for spells because its cost greatly outweighed its benefit to the extent of their ability - and after learning humility thought it was the wiser action. No hate.

Also note, that was only the view of one group of night elves, the ones we meet in WC3, the ones we meet in Eldre'thalas, Azsuna, Suramar (incl the nightborne) obviously never shared such views or experiences.
16/11/2016 04:37Posted by Eleiyna
14/11/2016 15:45Posted by Dariun
I'm not slamming NE mages, i've rolled one myself.

But i thought Darnassus wad very anti arcane?

This post really explains a lot. http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17613702273

have a read. Night elves have never been anti-arcane, just anti magical abuse, their abstinence from using the arcane for spells was not an abstinence from the presence of the arcane - as we are told they were totally suffused by it and used the physical properties of the well to surround themselves and the lands with Moonwells.

What they did do was not use it for spells on pain of death then exile - because to them the risk was far too high - (they believed using the arcane would definitely draw the legion back) - they felt they couldn't trust the Zin'Azshari highborne with them who's expert opinion informed them that ways could be devised to use magic without attracting extra-dimensional attention (i.e. demons from the twisting nether) however after the events of the sundering to which most night elves blamed the Zin'Azshari highborne, and the arcane addiction they were riddled with, their counsel was not heeded.

This was not a hate for the arcane, but rather a loathing to use it, as it's use had previously brought the burning legion. This was the view of the night elves of northern kalimdor up until the 3rd war - when the Legioni did return.

You have to note that naturally, views would have changed since then because of the events.

1. The burning legion DID return. The primary reason for abstaining from magical usage was to prevent this.
2. The northern kalimdor night elves were in isolation in the northern forests and Hyjal - did not mix to discover sooner that heavy magical usage could be shielded from the twisting nether, something the High elves achieved quite early on.
Now out of isolation, all such concerns aren't really relevant because of the solutions and events.
3. The final concern of arcane addiction has very recently been cured thanks to the Suramar (Broken Isles) night elf groups (mainly the nightborne rebellion and the Valewalker druids) - this was the other reason night elven leadership was reluctant to over the arcane.

You should read Wolfheart the novel, that takes place just after the cataclysm, where it really goes over Daranassus' reaction to magic. It's quite positive with the exception of Maiev who tries to drum up hatred.

You should note from there and bear in mind that Darnassus is quite new, it didn't exist before the 3rd war, and the night elves are more than just druids or priests. The northern group are a people for the first time since the Sundering rather than a collection of various Orders and disciplines.

Wolfheart and Cataclysm quests show night elves very quick and eager to embrace the arcane once Malfurion and Tyrande give the go ahead. Wolfheart explains that at first there was some difficulty becuase of the long and deepseated resentments towards the highborne, but they were working to have an agreement with the highborne magic users to allow them to be amongst them freely, without restrictions on their use of magic being imposed and the freedom for them to maintain their own ways, and their own culture.

Malfurion and Tyrande promised that this would be permitted and in Wolfheart they are waiting for everyone amongst the ruling council to come round which Malfurion tells the highborne group is expected, but will take a little while yet - as the highborne were getting a bit impatient.

Suffice it to say, despite Maive's effort, the night elves come round pretty quick for such a momentous shift - but it seems surprising if you don't understand that their reason for arcane abstention was not as emotionally driven as expected.

I'm not denying there aren't emotional issues, the sundering was very traumatic, and night elves of northern kalimdor have had millennia of blaming arcane usage for it and in particular the highborne. So they cautiously approach reconciliation.

This is highlighted by the druids referring to Estulan and the highborne group that approached the night elves as uncorrupted highborne, and again we are seeing a repeat in-game with the interaction of the night elves with the nightborne. Initially Tyrande is cautious and wary, but in time comes round and works hard to foster relationships.

it should be noted, whiles some like Maiev would hate magic users for the harm its users brought the world, this is not the view of most northern kalimdor night elves at all, they rather only refrained from the use of magic for spells because its cost greatly outweighed its benefit to the extent of their ability - and after learning humility thought it was the wiser action. No hate.

Also note, that was only the view of one group of night elves, the ones we meet in WC3, the ones we meet in Eldre'thalas, Azsuna, Suramar (incl the nightborne) obviously never shared such views or experiences.


Thanks for that awesome post.

Cleared up!
16/11/2016 04:37Posted by Eleiyna
have a read. Night elves have never been anti-arcane,


ah that post.

right since I've already commented on this once I shall make it short.

You do not ban -all use of something-
Unless you are anti that something.

if the Night elves indeed were not anti-arcane a ban would never had happened, instead there would had been special rules concerning the use of magic, and it had remained within their culture.

I would also make it Very clear that kalibas' post is not a canon thing but merely an opinion from a fellow player, with the views that the Night elf mage fan-base supports.

Now as for this actual Topic.

Over ten Thousand years ago the Kal'dorei empire existed.
http://i.imgur.com/IGUHFXS.jpg

an empire build upon the wonders of the arcane.

the war of the ancient happened and the survivors of the none-mage side of things declared magic banned, since the entire population now were distrustful of magic in general.

Now the mages of the survivors of the resistance could of course not live with this and they broke the law.

a law that was punishable by death.
However when Thousands of Night elves stood for execution it was not enforced and instead they were banished.

Now somewhere else in the place we know as Ferales the Shen'dralar
were first of all not aware of this ban, nor would they really had cared.

well, we went there we killed their leader and took away their source of survival: a Demon.
in the spring of the cataclysm those whom, had survived the onslaught of the Horde and Alliance assaults.

re-joined the population ten thousand years after the ban of magic.
and around 9 years maybe after the Night elves entered the Alliance, now since the allies of the Night elves were using magic.

they had learned to accept it or something I don't know I personally never agreed with the re-introduction of the Night elf mage.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Night_elf
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Shen%27dralar

Though to Truly understand the lore behind Night elf mages?

read these links and make your own opinion.
17/11/2016 10:54Posted by Durlan
You do not ban -all use of something-
Unless you are anti that something.

if the Night elves indeed were not anti-arcane a ban would never had happened, instead there would had been special rules concerning the use of magic, and it had remained within their culture.


If you are anti-arcane rather than anti-magical usage - you would not continue to have yourself suffused by arcane power of the well, nor would you use it's arcane properties to enhance your forests and lands.

Remember, night elves know the arcane well, they know the source in itself boosts life and health, intelligence, stature and strength - they know this and they use this -this is what we're shown, The problem in the past and i emphasize the past, because it has changed recently - was with individuals or the groups that took to abusing this power, they overused it, imbalanced themselves and it so compromised their noble faculties to the extent they were complicit in the horror of the legion coming.

The act of using the well for spells pierces the twisting nether and acts as a beacon for extra dimensional attention, they all know this is what drew the legion, and this is grevious, especially after banishing them from the world and saving it, the world is in tatters at this point, it's inhabitants barely survived, they have no strength to deal with a fresh invasion - remember the first invasion decimated Azeroth's greatest empire ever, with all its resources.

After such trauma, they're not going to kind or easily aggreeable with using magic especially after they now think Illidan created the well to call the legion back - they are mistaken here ofc, but they don't know it, judging by his actions of nearly killing Jarod and killing some mages and guards they don't believe anything he says and think him a burning legion agent.

Furhtermore they consider the risk of using it for spells to great, because the demons can sense magical usage, they don't believe Illidan that they can learn from that and compensate for it because they consider him a traitor now, nor do they believe Darth'remar because he is in withdrawal pangs and it's the addiction talking - and it turns out they are both right, as the Highborne of Eldre'thalas and the night elves in Suramar continue to use magic demon free, in fact Eldre'thalas even captures a demon and harnesses it power effectively preventing any further incursions from the twisting nether and repercussions to azeroth although they grossly underestimated what the demon would do to them and their prince in time.

This is not a hate of arcane magic... when your life and your world is at stake, you are dead serious abou tthis. It's not hatred. Elves aren't human, while they do feel, intelligence and reason play a very large role to guide their emotions.

Maiev is the one that is shwon to actually hate the magical users, but we're not shown the same with Tyrande and Malfurion, even Broll in the comic is not anti-magic but anti-magic usage. The night elves continued to maintain a magical kindgom, but without using the well for spells, instead using its properties to rebuild the devastation to the world the first invasion and the sundering had caused.

17/11/2016 10:54Posted by Durlan
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Night_elf
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Shen%27dralar


I'll do one better, go read the original warcraft manual, play through WC3, read WotA, find info on classic dire maul quests, find info on pre-cata WotLk patch 3.4 when the highborne approach, read wolfheart, play world of warcraft cataclysm night elf zones all the way through to winterspring.

Pay attention to every detail you find, every quest you read, you will get a much much much bigger picture than the summary provided in gamepedia, study what blizzard show of the night elves, not popular opinion - sometimes fans get impressions based on incomplete or partial information and can jump to fast conclusions that are only part of the truth, missing quite a lot.

With night elves this is slightly intentional, as they are written to be enigmatic, and you won't understand their decisions unless you follow them closely. Night elves were introduced after a period of Vigil, their story in affairs starts with the return of their anceint enemy and fulfilling their charge.

They are introduced as an advanced arcane civilization, where the survivors of a great catastrophe adopt a very different lifestyle in an attempt to guard and heal a world almost destroyed by their own hubirs. 10,000 years have passed. This is a long long long time, and finally the thing they watched for has come back.

Their society is bound to change afterwards, in fact i would say they were introduced to build a new story line for them, like all races in wow, they were introduced on the backdrop of great suffering and tragedy, theirs though happened over 10,000 years rather than recently like the gnomes, they kick of wow after a crushing blow but a victory, one that left them having to re-enter a world they'd been isolated from.

This is where their story starts, it was bound to begin to rebuild them - and just because we saw nothing of it in wow for 14 years since WC 3 TFT, doesn't mean it wasn't the intention - it just means blizzard had relatively ignored the night elves choosing instead to focus on other races, but what is the first thing they do when they pay a little attention to them in Cataclysm (the expansion all races got a little progress in?) they show us what we've been waiting to see for a while, how night elves have changed since the events of Wc3, this is the first night elf progression in WoW since wow launched - remember we did not see the night elves in TBC or WotLK have any development.

And the first thing they show us is night elves getting the arcane back - this makes sense, as not using it was to prevent the legion, and all that has changed, night elves are out of isolation, their society was a bunch of orders, it wasn't a society, you had the priest order doing its patrolling and thing, and the druids attending to Azeroth - they weren't building families, cities or antyhing, they enver repaired one ruin or even looked back, they weren't a society like most races are during that era, now they have to be, now they have to define oborders, secure land, build a civilization and not just be a group of orders.

We see a glimpse into what they are doing in Cata, but it's not until Legion that we see much more depth, and blizzard again heavily show you the arcane side. in legion we see the night elven highborne/nightborne magical imbalance that causes the addiction and the great hunger in the curse of the nightwell finally solved. We're introduced to the Valewalkers and their 10k year old mission to save the magical night elven users, most of all the highborne group, and they finally succeed with the nightborne in Shal'aran and the players help.

This is not showing arcane hatred.. only Maiev and some of her followers had that, this shows a logical abstinence from magic and when it was no longer necessary, embracing it again - first cautiously, but now post the Arcan'dor - they can really go for it.

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