Potion of Prolonged Power rank 3 procs

Professions
Now that the recipe is out, I can confirm that the procs only give you 1-19 extras. Would it not be more reasonable for it to be 10-190, given that the base crafted amount is 10?

Barely getting triple from an extremely rare "20"-proc feels a bit meh, while x2's and x3's are common with other potions and flasks.
Why would you want 190 at once ? So they sell for 30 copper each ?
The main purpose of this potion to me is not to make crazy procks , but to let alchemists go to 800 without rank 3 flasks .
I wouldn't. I wouldn't want to see my 20-proc to be wasted on 200 PoPPs being crafted at once (and yes, I know probability doesn't work that way). But I'd much rather take 200, than a measly 29.

It's about everything being fair and equal. As it stands, the rank 3 upgrade for Potion of Prolonged Power is 10 times worse than for any other potion or flask.
05/12/2016 13:44Posted by Aprix
Why would you want 190 at once ? So they sell for 30 copper each ?
Actually ending up seeing a 200-proc of these is going to be insanely rare, anything above 60 would be a rare occurrence, let alone 200. Even if you crafted 4000 flasks, you probably wouldn't see more than 4-5 20-procs (which means, out of 20,000-40,000 PoPP's you might see a handful of 200-procs); just to illustrate how rarely it happens. It wouldn't even ruin the market for these, because you'd mostly see "20"- and "30"-procs.

Just like when people started getting rank 3 flask recipes, the price dropped around 30-50%. So we could expect these going down to 15-20 gold each.

Let me ask you, if they added a recipe that crafted a [Crate of Healing Potions] which "Contains 20 Ancient Healing Potions." and it required 80 Yseralline Seeds and 20 Crystal Vials to make. So it's simply a time saver, when crafting a large batch. Would you be fine with the rank 3 proc giving you 1-19 extra Ancient Healing Potions, rather than 1-19 additional full crates? Because that's what you're advocating for here.

The bonus needs to be multiplicative, so that it's fair when scaled up for bundles of potions.

Right now, if you'd get a "20"-proc ... or well, a 29-proc of Potions of Prolonged Power, that's around 600 gold value in extra potions produced. While for all other potions it's more than 7000 gold (and over double for flasks).

If the Potion of Prolonged Power gave 200, like I suggested, even at 15 gold each, that'd still be 2850 gold. Surely that would be more reasonable, than what it currently is?
I understand what you are saying but srsly for 1 blood you get 10 potions .

And you want to get 200 potion for 1 blood ? lol :D They are dirt cheep as it is , you will just make them lower .

And no the flask prises didn`t drop because of people having rank 3 . They droped because thousand of people were crafting thousand of flask for millions of gold and were desperately trying to make some of it back .

Let me illustrate it with numbers so you see how ridiculous it is .

My server has around 240k alliance . Lets say of them 10 % are alchemy . Thats 24000 , of them 10 % actually want to grind tho 800(rank 3 flasks) thats 2400 . On average you need 500-1000 (average 750)flasks to prock a rank 3 . 4 different flasks.
2400 x 750 =1.800.000 flasks per variety of flask .
1.800.000 x 4 = 7.200.000 flasks total for a server with medium population .

How exactly do you see them being sold at even close to material prise .
Most will try to sell them at anything they can , just so they can get some money back and continue farming rank 3

I personally made 600 potions of prolonged power , just to level from 790 to 800 because it`s the easiest way to get to 800 . Everyone else who doesn`t have 800 will do the same . Thats potentially BILLIONS of Potions without 200 prock , and you want to do Billions times 200 ??????

Finally IT IS JUST 1 BLOOD OF SARGERAS FOR 10+ , and you still complain . lol

I would be fine if it was 10 blood for 10 potions . Yea , than 200 prock would be justified , but now its simply being greedy .

As a bonus , people will level trough the potions now , so the flasks should rocket in price , because people won`t be forced to spam craft them , to lvl up .
05/12/2016 14:24Posted by Addy
I wouldn't. I wouldn't want to see my 20-proc to be wasted on 200 PoPPs being crafted at once (and yes, I know probability doesn't work that way). But I'd much rather take 200, than a measly 29.

It's about everything being fair and equal. As it stands, the rank 3 upgrade for Potion of Prolonged Power is 10 times worse than for any other potion or flask.


Just to add .

You talk about equal , how is it equal to have to use :
2 roses 4 athereil 4 dreamleaf for just 1 leytorrent potion
VS 1 blood for 10 potions of prolonged power .

Not only does prolonged power make 10 times more , it also has 10 times less ingredients cost . Stop being biased and greedy .
Okay, I clearly can't hammer in this point with thorough explanations, so let me try a simple one.

Every single Legion potion and flask gets about 20-30% production increase from Rank 3, on average.

Potion of Prolonged Power gets about 2-3% increase in production.

And that is why the extra proc needs to produce 10 times more.
07/12/2016 15:35Posted by Aprix
I understand what you are saying but srsly for 1 blood you get 10 potions .

And you want to get 200 potion for 1 blood ? lol :D They are dirt cheep as it is , you will just make them lower .

You keep clinging onto this point about 200-procs seemingly being common, which is making you ignore the real issue behind all of this. The variance in +10-190 extras evens out over the course of thousands of crafts. A single 200-proc every 4000-5000 Potions of Prolonged Power is unnoticeable in larger scale, sure it's a burst of potions, but:

100 x 10 crafts + 1 x 200 craft = 1200 potions

just like

100 x 10 crafts + 10 x 20 crafts = 1200 potions

The fact is that a 200-proc is well over 100 times less likely to happen than a regular double proc, which means that it gets evened out, spread thin, equalized over the course of a long string of crafts.

In fact, from my little example there, you should instantly be able to recognize that the 200-procs are a MINISCULE contributor in the total +20-30% production increase that the Rank 3 provides (or in the case of PoPP's, should).

What you have to realise here is that the 200-procs would need to happen 10 times more often, for them to match double procs, to get even close. And before it even enters your mind: No, I don't want that.

Also, before you say that there's 9 less crafts being made in the earlier example, that is not the amount of crafts needed to get a 200-proc, that was merely to illustrate how just a couple of double procs equal a 200-proc.

07/12/2016 15:46Posted by Aprix
You talk about equal , how is it equal to have to use :
2 roses 4 athereil 4 dreamleaf for just 1 leytorrent potion
VS 1 blood for 10 potions of prolonged power .

Not only does prolonged power make 10 times more , it also has 10 times less ingredients cost .

10 times less ingredients cost you say? For a single potion, obviously. But we're not crafting a single potion, or selling a single potion for the same price as a Leytorrent potion. Material costs are irrelevant in this discussion anyway, but even if they weren't, let's take a look at your argument.

1 Blood of Sargeras is worth around 300-350 gold on most realms, thanks to the blood trader, we can compare a single blood to 10 Foxflowers, which are worth around 350-400 gold. Let's look at the numbers:

2 Starlight Rose cost around 200 gold,
4 Aethril cost about 80 gold,
and finally 4 Dreamleaf, about 100 gold.

This totals at 380 gold, which is basically the same price as 10 PoPP's (350-400, if you bought and sold the Foxflower instead).
07/12/2016 15:35Posted by Aprix
I would be fine if it was 10 blood for 10 potions . Yea , than 200 prock would be justified

What?! Did you not stop for even a second to consider what that would mean? This logic makes absolutely no sense.

If the Potion of Prolonged Power required 10 bloods to craft 10, that would mean each potion would cost about 350-400 gold ... and only then you would be fine with the 200-procs? Not to mention, that the 200-proc would produce 76K worth of extras (that's 5 times more than flasks). But again, for the third time: material costs are irrelevant to whether the extra procs should be multiplicative or additive.

So, again, I wish for you to refute the argument in my previous post:

08/12/2016 21:39Posted by Addy
Every single Legion potion and flask gets about 20-30% production increase from Rank 3, on average.

Potion of Prolonged Power gets about 2-3% increase in production.

And that is why the extra proc needs to produce 10 times more.

Please do explain why that wouldn't be fair.
09/12/2016 01:16Posted by Addy
Please do explain why that wouldn't be fair.


Your explained it yourself perfectly here :

1 Blood of Sargeras is worth around 300-350 gold on most realms, thanks to the blood trader, we can compare a single blood to 10 Foxflowers, which are worth around 350-400 gold. Let's look at the numbers:

2 Starlight Rose cost around 200 gold,
4 Aethril cost about 80 gold,
and finally 4 Dreamleaf, about 100 gold.

This totals at 380 gold, which is basically the same price as 10 PoPP's (350-400, if you bought and sold the Foxflower instead).


1 leytorrent potion is 380g material wise .
10 PoPP`s are 350-400 g material wise , which means that each single one costs 35 gold .

380>35 = fairness ?

Mind you that you don`t use all 10 of them on one use .

The fact is that each time you craft 1 PoPP`s it = to having 10 leytorrent prock guaranteed each time you craft them .
On top of that the prock , procks again and gives you 20 leytorrent potions as it is on live . = 20 leytorent each time you craft 1 .
You ask for it to give you 20-190.
I`m all up for fairness . So lets make the Leytorrent potion either craft 10 each time i make 1 or for it to give 1-190 prock

06/12/2016 21:00Posted by Addy
[Crate of Healing Potions] which "Contains 20 Ancient Healing Potions." and it required 80 Yseralline Seeds and 20 Crystal Vials to make.


This is fair .

What wouldn`t be fair is to add a recipe that needs 4 Yseralline Seeds and 20 crystal vials and yields 20 potions , when in game we have a (random name healing potion) that heals the same amount , costs the same mats , but only creates one . Thats what you are asking for .
The fact is that each time you craft 1 PoPP`s it = to having 10 leytorrent prock guaranteed each time you craft them .

No it isn't, that is demonstrably wrong, and I can explain to you why.

The very fact that it crafts 10 at a time, means that the value is divided by 10. It's supposed to be a 10 times cheaper option, but we don't have a way to split a Blood of Sargeras.

Now.. if we had a recipe which turned a Blood of Sargeras into 10 crafting materials, now we could have a recipe which required 1 of those and made 1 Potion of Prolonged Power, where the Rank 3 upgrade would proc +1-19. This would be fine.

1 Foxflowers + 1 Vial = 1 PoPP (+1-19 procs)

Now let's look at the Leytorrent Recipe:

2 Rose + 4 Aethril + 4 Dreamleaf + 1 Vial = 1 Leytorrent (+1-19 procs)

Now.. let's multiply this by 10, to make it match the current Potion of Prolonged Power.

20 Rose + 40 Aethril + 40 Dreamleaf + 10 Vial = 10 Leytorrent (+1-19 procs)

See the procs not changing? You just lost ten times the value of the Rank 3 upgrade. What it should be is:

20 Rose + 40 Aethril + 40 Dreamleaf + 10 Vial = 10 Leytorrent (+10-190 procs)

Now, it matches the single craft version.

The Potion of Prolonged Power is supposed to be a cheap alternative; the only point of discussion should be about the Rank 3 procs.

If I spend 380K gold crafting 1000 Leytorrent Potions, I will end up with around 300 extras from procs, value of 114K. 30% increase in value.

But if I spend 35K crafting 1000 Potions of Prolonged Power, I'll end up with 30 extras, a value of 1050 gold. 3% increase in value.

Do you see how the Rank 3 upgrade for Potion of Prolonged Power does almost nothing?
You are both right and wrong . So am I guess ? Different point of view . You cling to the fact that 1 recipe is = to the other , even if one creates 10 times more . I see it as = of potion to potion .

10/12/2016 00:16Posted by Addy
If I spend 380K gold crafting 1000 Leytorrent Potions, I will end up with around 300 extras from procs, value of 114K. 30% increase in value.

But if I spend 35K crafting 1000 Potions of Prolonged Power, I'll end up with 30 extras, a value of 1050 gold. 3% increase in value.


When you craft the Leytorrent potion you will do :
1000 casts of the recipe and get 300 cast procks = 30 % increase
On prolonged power you will do :
100 casts and get 30 cast procks = 30% increase

I`v said all i can . As i said i understand your point of view (reasonable as it is), but i do not agree with it .
10/12/2016 11:08Posted by Aprix
100 casts and get 30 cast procks = 30% increase

Wrong. Because, the procs are producing 10 times less than the base crafted amount. Hence why it's not a 30% increase, but a 3% increase.

Cast amounts are irrelevant anyway, or are you saying that if the recipe produced 100 or 1000 potions per cast, and I got 30 extras:

10 casts and 30 extra procs = 300% increase
1 cast and 30 extra procs = 3000% increase?

That's ridiculous.

You still end up with the exact same number of potions in all scenarios, 1030.

And yes, 30 is in fact 3% of 1000.
Also, the sky won't be falling if they up the Rank 3 crafts to 10-200.

I mean, consider this, the total increase in Potions of Prolonged Power produced would be...

*Drumroll*

A whopping 17.65% to 26.21%.

Even if we go by the high estimate, a bit over 25% increase won't dramatically change its value. All it does, is match the Rank 3 upgrade with the rest of the Potions and Flasks, like it should.

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