When will you listen to the HC PvE community?

General
1 2 3 6 Next
This is a open letter to Blizzard.

Disclaimer: The following post has no "TL;DR", is long and negative. If you don't want to read this then don't. This is my view on the problems we (the raiding community) have been pointing out for months now.

We (the hardcore PvE raiding community) have tried communicating with you through direct channels about the current problems within legion PvE with no success, you have ignored problems that we have been pointing out since beta and its time for you to stop ignoring us and start communicating. We all came with different solutions of what we personally felt was best but for the most part we all agreed where the problem are.

The core problem is how unrewarding mythic raiding is and how mythic raiders get the short end of the stick time and time again. I will break this down in the following three area's: gear, artifact power and time spent vs reward.

Gear.

It started with titanforged and out gearing your mythic raid content before you even released it, it continues with mythic+.
Mythic+ is a problem, why is it more rewarding to grind mythic +7 to 9 keys then to clear mythic raid content? Something that in comparison to prenerf mythic Trial of Valor has a very low level of difficulty.

Just before the release of mythic EN you changed the amount of loot that dropped from 5 to 4, with a chance of 5 items. We both know why you did this and with zero communication, you didn't expect us to attain the level of gear we did before you released it. Something we pointed out multiple times during beta we would.

Due to this change in terms of character progression it is more efficient to split your raidteam up in mythic+ boost groups then it is to raid your current Mythic raid content. The itemization for most classes is poor, most trinkets are worse then what drops in dungeons (with the exception of a few) and the amount of loot you get per boss for 20 people is pathetic in comparison to the amount of loot you get for the time spent in a mythic+. Yes it does require the loot to roll titanforged but seeing as the itemization is better in dungeons then most of the raid gear we just keep going till it happens and the chance for it to occur is hardly rare.

Nighthold will fix this due to the trinkets and tier gear in there not being garbage but we are at that stage 4 months in, it should have never been a better alternative to grind mythic+. It feels pretty lame to see players who only do mythic+ have better gear because we spent our time progressing mythic ToV. Legendaries are a problem on top of this but that's been pointed out and discussed more times then I can count so I will skip this.

Artifact Power

So artifact power, to be more precise distribution of said artifact power. This is my biggest problem with Hardcore Endgame in legion.

For a mythic +7 key we currently get 224k artifact power (I believe, could be 228k, not important.) We can clear a maw of souls +7 in 15minutes while boosting someone. This is currently the most efficient way to grind artifact power. Progressing and killing Helya mythic has given me zero artifact power as you decided to make artifact power from raiding a random drop. The amount you get if it does drop is less then what you get for clearing a +7 key.

Why in the world is killing the hardest content in game content completely unrewarding in terms of artifact power? Why is it a chance and why if you do get it is it so bad? I can not wrap my head around this in any way. This should have NEVER been the case. We have tried to communicate this with you and you ignored us for months now.

You tune mythic content around having a certain level of artifact power. You will tune mythic Guldan for 54 traits because if you don't we will steamroll it as we are grinding it in case you do. If we don't grind it to 54 and you do tune Guldan that high? Then we are fighting the number boss and not the skill boss. No one wins here.

You tell us that if we don't wanna be part of the race we don't have to, if we don't wanna grind artifact power no one is forcing us.

If we wanna have a fair chance at clearing your content without being roadblocked due to a number on a weapon we don't have a choice. Its either grind now or headbutt in 3weeks with zero gain. All of this could have been fixed in so many ways. We said, make a cap and you said you don't want it to feel like valor points. We said give mythic raiding better artifact power rewards to help speed us up and make raiding more rewarding and you ignored us. It's about time you acknowledge this problem, just because we are a minority of your player base does not mean you should ignore us or make our life a pain in the behind in game just because we wanna enjoy a challenge, mythic raiding. You have yet to give us a single reason why raiding gives as little artifact power as it does?

This lead me in to my final problem, time spent vs rewards when raiding mythic content.

You release raid content back to back with little gaps, no mythic raider is going to tell you they want nighthold mythic this month or we will get bored. If you didn't release it so quick the above problems would still exist but the time spent to achieve 54 would have been more evenly spread and less of a frustration. We know why you release content as quick as you do, the casual playerbase does not raid mythic and has seen and done your other PvE content quite a few times by now. This is fair and understandable, but does that mean we need to grind boring and repetative content nonstop just to keep up with your content pace with no support from you, Blizzard? Doesn't seem fair.

The mythic raiding reward for timespent even from a cosmetic perspective is non-existant, we don't gain any exclusive content for our time spent. No secret boss, the last thing we got was one phase within a bossfight in highmaul during WoD. Even mounts are no longer a niche as you decided to have both heroic Guldan and mythic Guldan drop the same mount in a different color. Titles stay in the game even after the content has become obsolete, mounts keep dropping and in Legion even the loot and Artifact power reward is worse even while it is current content.

Why can't the hardest content in game not be the most lucrative content in game for character progression I ask you? If all that is left is just the joy of the challenge in a game where character progression is the centre something is wrong.

I don't have a problem with grinding, its part of a mmo but grinding the easy content because the hard content is unrewarding is illogical and poor design.

You wanted mythic+ and raiding to be separate paths to character progression? You made mythic+ a path towards raiding progression instead, and trust me when I say its a boring path just to enjoy a challenge in a few weeks from now.
To be honest I have no problem that mythic+ can reward u with better gear then mythic raiding, some peopple dont have the friends / guild / time to raid, maybe the titanforged level should go down by 5 ilvls overall, but I see no problem with the current dungeons / raids.
Title isn't entirely fitting with the point, you mean the hc raiding pve players, so not all ;p
And what's hardcore about going to raid only without doing anything else for gear progression.
01/01/2017 18:28Posted by Draainaai
Title isn't entirely fitting with the point, you mean the hc raiding pve players, so not all ;p
And what's hardcore about going to raid only without doing anything else for gear progression.


Stupid character cap in the title forced me to shrink it to this. I don't have a problem with doing stuff outside of raiding to progress my character, I do have a problem with the difficulty vs reward ratio. Especially with mythic raiding giving close to no artifact power.
This is a good post and it makes sense, especially the part about AP
This is a open letter to Blizzard.

Disclaimer: The following post has no "TL;DR", is long and negative. If you don't want to read this then don't. This is my view on the problems we (the raiding community) have been pointing out for months now.

We (the hardcore PvE raiding community) have tried communicating with you through direct channels about the current problems within legion PvE with no success, you have ignored problems that we have been pointing out since beta and its time for you to stop ignoring us and start communicating. We all came with different solutions of what we personally felt was best but for the most part we all agreed where the problem are.

The core problem is how unrewarding mythic raiding is and how mythic raiders get the short end of the stick time and time again. I will break this down in the following three area's: gear, artifact power and time spent vs reward.

Gear.

It started with titanforged and out gearing your mythic raid content before you even released it, it continues with mythic+.
Mythic+ is a problem, why is it more rewarding to grind mythic +7 to 9 keys then to clear mythic raid content? Something that in comparison to prenerf mythic Trial of Valor has a very low level of difficulty.

Just before the release of mythic EN you changed the amount of loot that dropped from 5 to 4, with a chance of 5 items. We both know why you did this and with zero communication, you didn't expect us to attain the level of gear we did before you released it. Something we pointed out multiple times during beta we would.

Due to this change in terms of character progression it is more efficient to split your raidteam up in mythic+ boost groups then it is to raid your current Mythic raid content. The itemization for most classes is poor, most trinkets are worse then what drops in dungeons (with the exception of a few) and the amount of loot you get per boss for 20 people is pathetic in comparison to the amount of loot you get for the time spent in a mythic+. Yes it does require the loot to roll titanforged but seeing as the itemization is better in dungeons then most of the raid gear we just keep going till it happens and the chance for it to occur is hardly rare.

Nighthold will fix this due to the trinkets and tier gear in there not being garbage but we are at that stage 5months in, it should have never been a better alternative to grind mythic+. It feels pretty lame to see players who only do mythic+ have better gear because we spent our time progressing mythic ToV. Legendaries are a problem on top of this but that's been pointed out and discussed more times then I can count so I will skip this.

Artifact Power

So artifact power, to be more precise distribution of said artifact power. This is my biggest problem with Hardcore Endgame in legion.

For a mythic +7 key we currently get 224k artifact power (I believe, could be 228k, not important.) We can clear a maw of souls +7 in 15minutes while boosting someone. This is currently the most efficient way to grind artifact power. Progressing and killing Helya mythic has given me zero artifact power as you decided to make artifact power from raiding a random drop. The amount you get if it does drop less then what you get for clearing a +7 key.

Why in the world is killing the hardest content in game content completely unrewarding in terms of artifact power? Why is it a chance and why if you do get it is it so bad? I can not wrap my head around this in any way. This should have NEVER been the case. We have tried to communicate this with you and you ignored us for months now.

You tune mythic content around having a certain level of artifact power. You will tune mythic Guldan for 54 traits because if you don't we will steamroll it as we are grinding it in case you do. If we don't grind it to 54 and you do tune Guldan that high? Then we are fighting the number boss and not the skill boss. No one wins here.

You tell us that if we don't wanna be part of the race we don't have to, if we don't wanna grind artifact power no one is forcing us.

If we wanna have a fair chance at clearing your content without being roadblocked due to a number on a weapon we don't have a choice. Its either grind now or headbutt in 3weeks with zero gain. All of this could have been fixed in so many ways. We said, make a cap and you said you don't want it to feel like valor points. We said give mythic raiding better artifact power rewards to help speed us up and make raiding more rewarding and you ignored us. It's about time you acknowledge this problem, just because we are a minority of your player base does not mean you should ignore us or make our life a pain in the behind in game just because we wanna enjoy a challenge, mythic raiding. You have yet to give us a single reason why raiding gives as little artifact power as it does?

This lead me in to my final problem, time spent vs rewards when raiding mythic content.

You release raid content back to back with little gaps, no mythic raider is going to tell you they want nighthold mythic this month or we will get bored. If you didn't release it so quick the above problems would still exist but the time spent to achieve 54 would have been more evenly spread and less of a frustration. We know why you release content as quick as you do, the casual playerbase does not raid mythic and has seen and done your other PvE content quite a few times by now. This is fair and understandable, but does that mean we need to grind boring and repetative content nonstop just to keep up with your content pace with no support from you, Blizzard? Doesn't seem fair.

The mythic raiding reward for timespent even from a cosmetic perspective is non-existant, we don't gain any exclusive content for our time spent. No secret boss, the last thing we got was one phase within a bossfight in highmaul during WoD. Even mounts are no longer a niche as you decided to have both heroic Guldan and mythic Guldan drop the same mount in a different color. Titles stay in the game even after the content has become obsolete, mounts keep dropping and in Legion even the loot and Artifact power reward is worse even while it is current content.

Why can't the hardest content in game not be the most lucrative content in game for character progression I ask you? If all that is left is just the joy of the challenge in a game where character progression is the centre something is wrong.

I don't have a problem with grinding, its part of a mmo but grinding the easy content because the hard content is unrewarding is illogical and poor design.

You wanted mythic+ and raiding to be separate paths to character progression? You made mythic+ a path towards raiding progression instead, and trust me when I say its a boring path just to enjoy a challenge in a few weeks from now.


You know whay they did this as the real raiding starts with NH and tier gear and legendary trinkets .Its only 4 months in btw not 5 :P but people asked /screamed for gear on par with raiding for smaller guilds .

You do have your prestige still tbh for a short while

mythic mount and title and tier gear .

I do agree you should have more AP and 100% drop from each boss .
i do agree it should be 5 drops per boss kill one drop for every 4 player seem fair.
The problem they face is they cant spend uber money on mythic raiders as only a very small group actually see it when current .

And the heroic/normal mount has something like a 0.01 drop rate will hardly ever drop tbh .
01/01/2017 18:43Posted by Cordanna

You know whay they did this as the real raiding starts with NH and tier gear and legendary trinkets .Its only 4 months in btw not 5 :P but people asked /screamed for gear on par with raiding for smaller guilds .

You do have your prestige still tbh for a short while

mythic mount and title and tier gear .

I do agree you should have more AP and 100% drop from each boss .
i do agree it should be 5 drops per boss kill one drop for every 4 player seem fair.
The problem they face is they cant spend uber money on mythic raiders as only a very small group actually see it when current .

And the heroic/normal mount has something like a 0.01 drop rate will hardly ever drop tbh .


Oops, fixed. No one really knows if the heroic mount is a rare drop to be fair, all we know is it drops a heroic mount that looks identical to the mythic mount if you are colorblind. Unless this got changed on PTR recently in which case fair. Regardless the mount was just a example, it doesn't personally bother me on its own. It does bother me that we get very little for the effort it takes to complete said content.
01/01/2017 18:13Posted by Nuckels
The core problem is how unrewarding mythic raiding is and how mythic raiders get the short end of the stick time and time again. I will break this down in the following three area's: gear, artifact power and time spent vs reward.


T:;DR: I dont feel special enough.

I do however agree with mythic+, it's too rewarding and needs curbed.

The 5 man progression has turned into gearing for mythic raiders.
aye, i too feel the occassional "why am i even going here?"-feel in mythic raids. and i am not even anywhere close to playing hardcore
BiS stats aside, i can get equally good items by running those 5-man dungeons. That alone takes out 15 potential wipe-reasons.

I don't see how it's fair wiping 10,20,30,40 or more times, spending many hours to down ONE boss to get items, that are slightly better than what i can get from a 5-man at best.

and the titanforged bull!@#$ indeed sucks too.... i have heroic 895 boots. why is it, that i got heroic EN loot, that is pretty much better than anything the mythic version can throw at me?
01/01/2017 22:32Posted by Someoneelse
01/01/2017 18:13Posted by Nuckels
The core problem is how unrewarding mythic raiding is and how mythic raiders get the short end of the stick time and time again. I will break this down in the following three area's: gear, artifact power and time spent vs reward.


T:;DR: I dont feel special enough.

I do however agree with mythic+, it's too rewarding and needs curbed.

The 5 man progression has turned into gearing for mythic raiders.


This has nothing to do with feeling special? I don't even know how you base that off my qoute either.
To keep it realistic and negative like your own post:

Bad idea to post this. Your goal is to reach Blizz, it won't happen, just like other posts with 100-200 likes didn't reach Blizz. Just post about cats and cutesy crap if you want a Blue replying.

Second and more important, posting this is just asking to be trolled and taunted by idiots, some of which already started to happen in posts above. You should have understood by now that what you represent in WoW is what the majority hates (and envies) the most. You do hard content and expect the best rewards, justifiably so - as it was always the case.

But why would the 99% want that for you? The worse you feel in the game the more fun they have and the easier it is for them to troll you. Your dissatisfaction makes people happy.

And yes, I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY with your post, and I gave it a like, it's the best I can do. But it would be idealistic and naive to expect anything to come from it. How many topics we had about the stupidity and unfairness of legendaries? NOTHING. AP? TF? Yeah, basically non-issues in comparison. I will have 54/40/30 by the time I start Mythic Nighthold almost surely, but what will it do for me with 4 bad legendaries? Nothing lol.

Again - posting about how the raiding population is unhappy and dissatisfied is a straight path to trolling. Don't make the idiots happy. They're already jubilating for the whole expansion because of Blizz destroying raiding and the reward structure.
Raids should definitely give more AP since they are ones pr week, atleast one certain token pr boss and probably one that rewards more than the dungeon ones.
"But why would the 99% want that for you? The worse you feel in the game the more fun they have and the easier it is for them to troll you. Your dissatisfaction makes people happy."

A decent AP drop from bosses would be a gain for everyone, from the casual guy that pugs normal to the hc raider. So in case this would happen, I'm sure every single player into raiding (at any level) would benefit from it.
Doesn't matter how vindicated you are, or are not. Ask yourself the following question;

Am I American?
If the answer is Yes; Congratulations, you might get listened to.

If the answer is No; Sucks to be you, they won't listen a damn.

Blizzard have shown, they will answer those things raised as problems by Americans, but will ignore those self same topics, when raised by Europeans, and indeed ignore and delete threads that ask unfortunate and embarrassing questions that they don't have answers for.

It would be great if we could have a Blue who moderated the European boards, was listened to, and did something other than answer the fun and easy posts, you know, actually, did their job or something.

For now though, if you're not American, you're not getting listened to.
"When will you listen to the HC PvE community?"..

When they're done listening to the hardcore PVP crybabies. Though sadly, they've been listening to them since TBC because they just can't seem to put a fork in it.
I tend to agree with a lot of stuff but Blizzard are between a rock and a hard place when it comes to this stuff because they shouldn't (I believe) balance everything around the "hardcore mythic" raiders who just have to do it all.

1) M+ is too rewarding in terms of AP and mythic raiding too unrewarding, this I agree with strongly.
2) M+ gives too high quality gear in general. You shouldn't run 200 +2 dungeons knowing that a super titanforged 895 item will eventually drop. That should be exclusive to higher M+ (I mean proper hard M+, not just a 10 or a 12)

I don't have too much sympathy with the "must have 54 trait" mentality. I see your dilemma but WoD's problem there was never ways to progress your character. Now theres a way to progress your character all the hardcore people have to gorge themselves at the AP buffet. It's probably not good for the game but its entirely self inflicted.

This is getting a bit esoteric but I've kind of though for a while that Blizz should have some kind of behavioral psychologists (or whatever the heck you call them) to predict the consequences of systems they implement. I get the feeling at the moment that they just throw stuff in there and then are perennially shocked at what players did compared to what they thought would happen.

My piece for what its worth ^_^
Mm+ isnt too rewarding past 880 global ilvl. In order to get 880+, u must have Titanforged proc wich is extremely rare.
Didnt see one in more than 150 rune, ans the last was 870 for m+2. Its hardly better than mythic raiding.
I am no mythic raider, but for me mythic raiding has been for prestige and honor, than for loot for me, and the normal/hc and M+ now for loot, but maby I am just wrong.
02/01/2017 06:16Posted by Waleria
I am no mythic raider, but for me mythic raiding has been for prestige and honor, than for loot for me, and the normal/hc and M+ now for loot, but maby I am just wrong.

Only guilds like Method and Serenity and Exorsus really do it for "prestige and honor". There are countless (thousands) of guild below them that either just try to get a better position in their realm, climb wowprogress ranks a bit, or simply kill some bosses, get some phat loot, have some fun. Heroic and Normal are irrelevant for loot 99%. M+ is relevant only if you spam it like crazy, and you can still be unlucky with TF procs, and for the 885 weekly chest - which might be yet again a useless piece of gear depending on luck, or one of those 0.01% DPS sidegrades.

Thing is, regardless of what a lot of players try to avoid and also attempt to present themselves as if they never care about rewards, a fair reward system based on giving the very best to those doing your hardest content is of paramount importance. Right now that is not happening. IMO AP rewards and TF procs are the smallest issues in this system, and I can explain why:

- AP is a guaranteed reward for work done in the game. If you farm hundreds and hundreds of M+, you WILL end up with a maxed 54 artifact. There is no question, whatsoever, about it. Put in the time&work - and you WILL get results, and the results will be the same for everyone putting in the time. I might not like it that I have to do M+ a lot for it - yet I would call this balance. I'd still love more of my AP to come from raids, but it's hardly essential.
- TF/WF/Gearing - Mythic raiders that clear ToV M will have a lot of ToV gear. There will be some M+ pieces, but 890 gear is still 890. It's more annoying than AP, cause it might favor some against others for less effort, but in the end, it really doesn't matter if Joe has 890 ilvl and Sam 887. It's not that much and you can close the gap by giving Sam some raid gear.
- real issue is Legendaries. They are entirely random and one cannot farm them, like AP. This is why the above two pale in comparison. i know that if I want to, I can take 1 week off my schedule and be 54 in my arti. I simply know I can do that, i am able to farm it - yes I won't like it, but I can do it.
Now, how do I farm proper legendaries? That's right - I can't. You got 4-5 bad ones, oh boy you are screwed. You have no power over the situation like with AP. You are entirely at RNG's mercy.

This is why I think AP and gearing are much less of an issue that the one we have no power over. Raiders always made sacrifices for gear. If we farm hard, we should be able to farm for what legendary we desire.

The alternative is that Blizz ignores all of this, do what other MMOs do, put out decent amounts of easy, repetitive content, and make drops RNG and with very low chance. You'll lose your raider population, but keep M+ spam types. Mythic Raiders would rather bang head on a hard boss 200 times until a kill and get some nice goodies, instead of spamming MoS 30 times for a chance at a chance of a chance to get an RNG drop. Oh wait. They're already doing this.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum