Convergence of Fate (and other trinkets)

Class Development
23/01/2017 23:30Posted by Lore
23/01/2017 23:08Posted by Adlian
Draught of Souls unchanged for DPS warriors but reduced by 30% for UH DKS? Guess doing this damage is intended:

http://i.imgur.com/L9r13IH.jpg

The damage reduction on Draught of Souls has already been in place for Unholy DK's. Like I said, it was intended to counteract the fact that Unholy's Mastery increases Shadow damage (and prevent Draught of Souls from being far and away the most overpowered trinket available to Unholy). This hotfix isn't reducing Draught's damage, it's actually increasing it by about 17%.

That said, we agree that Draught being so strong for DPS Warriors is a problem. We're going to look into it some more.


Any plans when you will loot into it? I really need that trinket on my UH but i will never get it because we have 3 arms warriors and its completly broken... i hope it will be fixed soon.
23/01/2017 23:30Posted by Lore
23/01/2017 23:08Posted by Adlian
Draught of Souls unchanged for DPS warriors but reduced by 30% for UH DKS? Guess doing this damage is intended:

http://i.imgur.com/L9r13IH.jpg

The damage reduction on Draught of Souls has already been in place for Unholy DK's. Like I said, it was intended to counteract the fact that Unholy's Mastery increases Shadow damage (and prevent Draught of Souls from being far and away the most overpowered trinket available to Unholy). This hotfix isn't reducing Draught's damage, it's actually increasing it by about 17%.

That said, we agree that Draught being so strong for DPS Warriors is a problem. We're going to look into it some more.


I agree its a bit too strong. But you know what i agree too? Arms being one of the strongest ST dps at start of expansion and now being average at best without the trinket... When a class needs a raid item, no tier, to compete with DH, Rets, SPs (or not even that) somethings is seriously wrong. I really hope that you look into it too =)
So convergence is fine then for havoc DHs and Assasination rogues? Giving same benefits as it gave to Ret before nerfs. I dont understand why it's okay for some classes to get insane benefits while it's not ok for some?
23/01/2017 23:33Posted by Lore
23/01/2017 22:23Posted by Schlars
Will there be any changes to tank trinkets? They are all very poor...
Tank trinkets are on our to-do list, but not for this round of trinket tuning. We agree that they need some help.
The problem is all of these tank trinkets are poorly designed. It's not only the numbers tuning, it's the extremely punishing drawbacks you don't want to have to juggle when learning a progression boss. The dps and healer trinkets with the exception of the one that basically mind controls you for 3 seconds have absolutely no drawbacks. Tank trinkets can screw you over.

We will keep seeing tanks running with stat sticks like Odyn trinket or Arcanocrystal or even with dps trinkets like Chrono Shard or Memento of Angerboda until you finally decide to design a solid, helpful, reliable tanking trinket.

On a side note, if you have a cheat death effect up like last resort, purgatory or ardent defender, would that effect take precedence over "royal dagger haft"? Would hate to waste both the trinket and the cheat death ability on the same thing.

And shame on you Blizzard for putting crit onto that thing when you know very well you gave little if any crit defensive usefulness to every single tank spec out there. This isn't WOD where at least 2-3 tank specs favoured crit. You designed the specs, you butchered the crit benefits for tanks, and then you keep designing tank trinkets around crit. "Writhing heart of darkness" is another example. Why don't you design items around the pre-planned class design but you constantly want players to choose between mediocre, bad and worse.

I'm yet to find a good versatility tank trinket that isn't a stat stick or a dps trinket (horn of valor), and no, "talisman of the cragshaper" doesn't count because the absorb cap on it is pathetically small - that seems to be a theme across tank trinkets this expansion, isn't it, Blizzard?
23/01/2017 21:23Posted by Lore

As for Convergence of Fates, we’re spending a little extra time to make sure our changes here are as comprehensive as possible, so we don’t have final numbers yet. However, we can share our overall plan for the changes we intend to make. We intend to reduce its base effectiveness (before talents) for Windwalkers, and increase its base effectiveness for Retribution Paladins and Frost and Unholy Death Knights.


Kinda worried reading this as a Windwalker that's mostly interested in Mythic raiding, for a few reasons. While it is true that looking at this week of raids, Windwalkers seem to be in a very good spot(solid but not top single-target and priority target burst, and of course crazy aoe - our speciality!), there are some things that should(in my opinion) be taken into account before trying to tune down the spec.

1. Windwalker is the worst(or very close to worst) spec when looking at gear scaling, it is mainly originating from the fact none of our stats got any synergy with our damage dealing mechanisms, but that's a story for another time. What this means though, is that the first week of raids while people are still relatively low geared favors Windwalkers, but we will get "naturally nerfed" as people get higher ilvl gear, which simply benefits the other dps specs more. I'm sure you are following Simcraft and such, but if you want a concrete example, try to compare the scaling of Windwalker dps with Mastery(supposedly our "best stat", in fact very much in line with Crit/Versa) to that of Shadowpriests.

2. Heroic/Normal encounters are always much faster than Mythic ones, this matters because very fast encounters put Storm, Earth and Fire in a very positive light due to it having two charges. When a dps cooldown has two charges on a 3minute fight, it is WAY more impactful than it would be on a 7minute fight for example. Concrete example: on a 420sec fight an extra charge of SEF(+15sec of the buff) give you ~3.5% extra uptime on the cooldown when averaged across the whole encounter, on a 180sec fight it gives extra ~8.3% uptime, more than double. This might make SEF seem stronger now than it would be in realistic Mythic encounter conditions.

3. Storm, Earth and Fire got a lot of fixes lately, and we were all very happy to see them. However, I'm sure you noticed an abundance of new bug reports regarding SEF(most notable of them being that SEF clones blatantly STOP attacking after killing a target and don't copy abilities anymore, RJW barely working with the clones, the clones still sometimes miss FoF on the move...). It feels very bad to get indirect nerfs to an ability that still doesn't actually work as intended, we have to deal with a LOT of sef bugs and it feels really demotivating to hear you think it's not just doing well, but needs to be tuned down.

4. A small note regarding the Serenity change - Serenity inherently benefits less from CoF-style trinket because of it's special nature, it's not exactly a dps cooldown you can use out of nowhere on demand like many of the others on the list, it requires careful synch with your dps abilities(most notably FoF and SotW), which means that sometimes when Serenity comes off cooldown(especially if it's semi-unexpectedly due to a CoF proc or two in a row), it will not be immediately used but delayed a bit to synch with sotw/fof. A direct result of this is that further CoF procs can be "wasted". Serenity is severely under-utilized now and another blow to it after the mechanical change* it got with 7.1.5 is just out of place, it can easily put it in the "dead talents closet" amongst our most beloved friends Chi Orbit, Ascension and Power Strikes.

*how cooldown reduction worked, was meant to make it more intuitive, in fact it severely handicapped Serenity, and is one of the main reasons people almost entirely opted out of that talent with 7.1.5, alongside the SEF fixes.

Thanks for reading, and any input/feedback/disagreement on this semi-daunting textwall procured here is most welcome^^

meow.
I really think if you simply removed a large chunk of AV/Crusade bonus damage and fed some of it back into base DPS, you'd have far fewer headaches balancing the spec.

Oh, and oddly then Crusade wouldn't be the completely obvious tier 100 choice, since the spec is no longer so dependent on that burst window.

Better still, be more creative with AV/Crusade, rather than a flat damage buff, make it do something more interesting. How about something like every HP spender leaves a stacking Holy DoT (it can last for a while so moving isn't an issue), a nod to the old seals.
Here's the changes we're looking to make for Convergence of Fate's interaction with some of the throughput cooldowns it affects. These numbers are compared to the trinket's current performance on live, and are not additive with each other.

Frost Death Knight
  • with Empower Rune Weapon: +10% proc rate
  • with Hungering Rune Weapon: -23% proc rate

Unholy Death Knight
  • with Summon Gargoyle: +68% proc rate
  • with Dark Arbiter: no change

Feral Druid
  • with Berserk: no change
  • with Incarnation: -45%
    • Note: Incarnation was not properly working with Convergence, which has now been fixed. The number given here is relative to Convergence's proc rate with Berserk.

Windwalker Monk
  • with Storm, Earth, and Fire: -62% proc rate
  • with Serenity: -75% proc rate

Retribution Paladin
  • with Avenging Wrath: +250% proc rate
  • with Crusade: +25% proc rate
    • Note: This change should bring Convergence back to roughly its original effectiveness for Ret Paladins who are not using Crusade.

Additionally, on the topic of tank trinkets, we'll be increasing Animated Exoskeleton's maximum shield amount by 33%. We're continuing to investigate tank trinkets, but that change will make it in for this week's hotfix.
You could just make Gargoyle not an absolutely atrocious cooldown instead of buffing a trinket (which is still garbage with those changes) which attempts to band-aid it.

I find it kind of a slap in the face that we have to wait until 7.2 to get our new Gold Trait to make Gargoyle a remotely decent cooldown. I am actually mind blown that a 3min CD can be so weak.
Blizzard, why do you hate serenity?
24/01/2017 02:32Posted by Lore

Windwalker Monk
  • with Storm, Earth, and Fire: -62% proc rate
  • with Serenity: -75% proc rate


You can just remove it from the monk's loot table, it will be easier.
Here's the changes we're looking to make for Convergence of Fate's interaction with some of the throughput cooldowns it affects. These numbers are compared to the trinket's current performance on live, and are not additive with each other.

Retribution Paladin
  • with Avenging Wrath: +250% proc rate
  • with Crusade: +25% proc rate
    • Note: This change should bring Convergence back to roughly its original effectiveness for Ret Paladins who are not using Crusade.

.


HAHAHA Ret Paladins who are not using Crusade does not exist!. CoF with Crusade is still garbage, the Trinket is still worse than some random 5 man trinkets, gj (kappa)

24/01/2017 02:58Posted by Ryuchi
24/01/2017 02:32Posted by Lore

Windwalker Monk
  • with Storm, Earth, and Fire: -62% proc rate
  • with Serenity: -75% proc rate


You can just remove it from the monk's loot table, it will be easier.

Same for Ret
24/01/2017 02:58Posted by Ryuchi
24/01/2017 02:32Posted by Lore

Windwalker Monk
  • with Storm, Earth, and Fire: -62% proc rate
  • with Serenity: -75% proc rate


You can just remove it from the monk's loot table, it will be easier.

At this rate they may remove serenity and windwalker spec.
24/01/2017 02:32Posted by Lore

Retribution Paladin
  • with Avenging Wrath: +250% proc rate
  • with Crusade: +25% proc rate
    • Note: This change should bring Convergence back to roughly its original effectiveness for Ret Paladins who are not using Crusade.

Can you just remote it from ret loot table already? It's just as useless as before with crusade, and no one is going to use Divine Purpose cause it sucks.
Nerfing builds no one plays, just blizzard things.
24/01/2017 02:32Posted by Lore
Here's the changes we're looking to make for Convergence of Fate's interaction with some of the throughput cooldowns it affects. These numbers are compared to the trinket's current performance on live, and are not additive with each other.

Frost Death Knight
  • with Empower Rune Weapon: +10% proc rate
  • with Hungering Rune Weapon: -23% proc rate

[/quote]
Nice changes blizzard lets nerf everything about dks and make everything useless, first you nerf out runic empowerment and every dk forum is full of pots about it and how the gameplay now is about looking at you auto attacking like a boss, Ive even renamed machine gun spec for revolver spec because you need to hit obliterate 3 times and use 4 frost strikes and then you are out runes and runic power . And now you decided to nerf the bis trinket for bos build, Aplauses to you blizzard do you really want all dks to reroll now do something usefull and send someone to dk forum to answer some questions every once in a while that place doesnt have a blue post in 6 months
24/01/2017 02:32Posted by Lore

Retribution Paladin
  • with Avenging Wrath: +250% proc rate
  • with Crusade: +25% proc rate
    • Note: This change should bring Convergence back to roughly its original effectiveness for Ret Paladins who are not using Crusade.

Additionally, on the topic of tank trinkets, we'll be increasing Animated Exoskeleton's maximum shield amount by 33%. We're continuing to investigate tank trinkets, but that change will make it in for this week's hotfix.


Is this a troll? 1.5 rppm? Seems like you used the trinket as a way to 'balance' ret then said there would be a buff due to the outcry and its 0.3ppm extra, but then you add that those who don't use Crusade (which is 0% of the ret paladin population who cares about doing dps) will get the old one as some joke?

Lucky those 3/140,000 people who play Ret in NH get a buff for divine purpose
Pretty sure you guys said the main reason people quit WoD was because of constant class changes, now we're being expected to gear towards different builds and trinkets every week, ridiculous.
24/01/2017 02:32Posted by Lore

Retribution Paladin
  • with Avenging Wrath: +250% proc rate
  • with Crusade: +25% proc rate
    • Note: This change should bring Convergence back to roughly its original effectiveness for Ret Paladins who are not using Crusade.

Here is some honest, and harsh constructive criticism:

How could you be even considering to balance a talent that 99% of the paladin raiding community uses in every build around a single trinket? Bad decision making and design, almost up to a trolling point.
I will never be picking Divine purpose because it is simply not going to be a better raid dps option unless you completely delete crusade. +25% proc rate for crusade? That is laughable.

I won't be grabbing the trinket because if this change goes live, it will be a laughing stock of an item. I'll just keep playing the nerfed crusade with my Faulty countermeasure because ultimately you gave me other choice.
Every ret paladin will agree with me and do the same.
Divine purpose will never do good damage unless you buff it; which you most likely won't do. So that is out of the game, I don't even want to mention the third meme talent in the row that was meant to be for pvp purposes.

In the end you didn't change anything beside nerf our aoe damage on fights, overall damage on single targets; you basically nerfed our damage period. It is more then obvious through all these CoF nerf shenanigans that it was your main intention.
Basically everything turned out to be exactly this: a hybrid spec like Retribution logging high with bis gear is simply not allowed. I thought this expansion was about bringing a skilled player to the content over a certain class/spec. Balancing will always stay an impossible task, but you can do better then this. This goes for every spec, not just ret paladins.

However, you will see.. (and you basically already know) that when progression raids are over rets will be logging significantly less damage due to the dumb retribution passive not going off since people are not dying on encounters anymore. What will you do then? Buff ret legendaries or talents then nerf them again on the next content release?

Let's all be reasonable and not make people reroll from classes they love and enjoy to play. Learn from previous mistakes.
24/01/2017 05:12Posted by Èxo
24/01/2017 02:32Posted by Lore

Retribution Paladin
  • with Avenging Wrath: +250% proc rate
  • with Crusade: +25% proc rate
    • Note: This change should bring Convergence back to roughly its original effectiveness for Ret Paladins who are not using Crusade.

However, you will see.. (and you basically already know) that when progression raids are over rets will be logging significantly less damage due to the dumb retribution passive not going off since people are not dying on encounters anymore. What will you do then? Buff ret legendaries or talents then nerf them again on the next content release?

Let's all be reasonable and not make people reroll from classes they love and enjoy to play. Learn from previous mistakes.


I doubt they balance ret around the passive. Lol.
It's a flavor buff that increases damage, not "you only do 100% of your DPS when this is up".
It doesn't make or break the spec either, rets aren't suddenly gods because it's progression again unless someone is dying enough for it to have 100% uptime.
24/01/2017 01:03Posted by Conjugate
23/01/2017 21:23Posted by Lore

As for Convergence of Fates, we’re spending a little extra time to make sure our changes here are as comprehensive as possible, so we don’t have final numbers yet. However, we can share our overall plan for the changes we intend to make. We intend to reduce its base effectiveness (before talents) for Windwalkers, and increase its base effectiveness for Retribution Paladins and Frost and Unholy Death Knights.


Kinda worried reading this as a Windwalker that's mostly interested in Mythic raiding, for a few reasons. While it is true that looking at this week of raids, Windwalkers seem to be in a very good spot(solid but not top single-target and priority target burst, and of course crazy aoe - our speciality!), there are some things that should(in my opinion) be taken into account before trying to tune down the spec.

1. Windwalker is the worst(or very close to worst) spec when looking at gear scaling, it is mainly originating from the fact none of our stats got any synergy with our damage dealing mechanisms, but that's a story for another time. What this means though, is that the first week of raids while people are still relatively low geared favors Windwalkers, but we will get "naturally nerfed" as people get higher ilvl gear, which simply benefits the other dps specs more. I'm sure you are following Simcraft and such, but if you want a concrete example, try to compare the scaling of Windwalker dps with Mastery(supposedly our "best stat", in fact very much in line with Crit/Versa) to that of Shadowpriests.

2. Heroic/Normal encounters are always much faster than Mythic ones, this matters because very fast encounters put Storm, Earth and Fire in a very positive light due to it having two charges. When a dps cooldown has two charges on a 3minute fight, it is WAY more impactful than it would be on a 7minute fight for example. Concrete example: on a 420sec fight an extra charge of SEF(+15sec of the buff) give you ~3.5% extra uptime on the cooldown when averaged across the whole encounter, on a 180sec fight it gives extra ~8.3% uptime, more than double. This might make SEF seem stronger now than it would be in realistic Mythic encounter conditions.

3. Storm, Earth and Fire got a lot of fixes lately, and we were all very happy to see them. However, I'm sure you noticed an abundance of new bug reports regarding SEF(most notable of them being that SEF clones blatantly STOP attacking after killing a target and don't copy abilities anymore, RJW barely working with the clones, the clones still sometimes miss FoF on the move...). It feels very bad to get indirect nerfs to an ability that still doesn't actually work as intended, we have to deal with a LOT of sef bugs and it feels really demotivating to hear you think it's not just doing well, but needs to be tuned down.

4. A small note regarding the Serenity change - Serenity inherently benefits less from CoF-style trinket because of it's special nature, it's not exactly a dps cooldown you can use out of nowhere on demand like many of the others on the list, it requires careful synch with your dps abilities(most notably FoF and SotW), which means that sometimes when Serenity comes off cooldown(especially if it's semi-unexpectedly due to a CoF proc or two in a row), it will not be immediately used but delayed a bit to synch with sotw/fof. A direct result of this is that further CoF procs can be "wasted". Serenity is severely under-utilized now and another blow to it after the mechanical change* it got with 7.1.5 is just out of place, it can easily put it in the "dead talents closet" amongst our most beloved friends Chi Orbit, Ascension and Power Strikes.

*how cooldown reduction worked, was meant to make it more intuitive, in fact it severely handicapped Serenity, and is one of the main reasons people almost entirely opted out of that talent with 7.1.5, alongside the SEF fixes.

Thanks for reading, and any input/feedback/disagreement on this semi-daunting textwall procured here is most welcome^^

meow.


big +1
Acually Chi Orbit is doing better than Serenity on many fights and this has become a situationally competitive option
Which is a shame for me cause it's like the "Landslide" enhancement shaman talent : !@#$ing 0 gameplay change for a LVL100 talent.

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