Regarding Artifact Power grind in 7.2

7.2 PTR General Discussion
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11/02/2017 01:14Posted by Léthò
Just saw the new AP requirements for maxing the weapon to 71 in game version 7.2 (current data from PTR): 4 billion AP. This just reeks of infinite grind a la Diablo III. The time getting your weapon from 54 to 71 in game version 7.2 will take four times as much time (955 mythic+7-9 runs) as getting it from 0 to 54 in 7.1.5 (250 runs). I don't know from where you game designers take the opinion that grind is the correct answer to Warlords of Draenor boredom or that grind is fun at all. Let me tell you: It will simply and heavily burn ppl out. Considering the legendary system and the massive rng grind mechanics this game is not fun anymore for competetive pve players that rely on skill. The game is more and more being transformed into a luck and time based Diablo III grinder and thereby giving up on the special place it currently had amongst most MMOs. I urge you to rethink the way you implement this system, I personally am so damn sick of being forced into grinding endless mythic+ dungeons if I want to stay competetive.


seems fine to me, just because u can't do it doesn't mean its wrong, there should be more hard/impossible things in games to make the more challenging or time consuming, so it actually feels that u can always do something, u just look at it the wrong way imo, nvm everyone does look at it the wrong way.
I play on OUTLAND eu, 8/10 population is alliance, and let me tlel you, even something like doing world quest, turns into wpvp wars and for me? thats fun as hell, going to raid entrance, world bosses, everything becomes more enjoyable, but if there was no grinding farming or reputations nobody would come out of dalaran, stormwind, orgrimmar, class hall.
Im super happy people have to get outside, so i can kill them, or be killed.

I can't understand the whole concept "i don't have 71 traits omg i must reach that to play the game"
its a goal, but you should enjoy your journey as much as possible, look at me, i haven't cleared mythic +15 nor any mythic raid, because outland horde is pretty hard for that (not impossible tho, my choice), even like that, i have 59 days of time played at this level, i dare anyone surpass that, and i was inactive for a whole month, that just show u how much i play, but i don't play to "grind" anything, i do that, but while i do it i do everything else aswell.

example:
I queue for LFR/skirmish arena/Random BG/Heroic Dungeon at the same time, yes even heroic dungeon, because boon of the bloodhunter and hc dungeon is a good way to farm blood of sargeras wich gave me 4 wow tokens in like 2 weeks and now i have 52 euro on bnet balance to spend, possibly i can get overwatch soon aswell.
AND while im in queue, i do emissary, if emissary is done, i do world quests, while doing wquests i kill any red player i see until im tired, and when ive done all these things, i group up and start big world pvp fights with guild against alliance, they usually outnumber us.

why play for such trivial reason like "grind ap" "achivements" when you can get those, while you enjoy the game.
The problem is that blizzard is more and more destroying the competetive aspect of the game. They decrease the meaning of skill and teamplay while making rng and time investment very impactful. Look at the loot system. It is allready super luck based titanforged items and the legendarys overall makes it pretty meaninless what you do in the game it all comes down to be lucky in reciving an good item. The AP Grind is just insane and ofc you dont have to do it but then you are missing any solid ground for competetive gameplay. An Maxed Out Weapon is what you could call an equal ground for competition but if reaching this "starting point" takes so much time to reach it destroys any kind of fair competition. Sure I dont have to do it but someone will and this way there will be no competition between us. If you talk about high-end content you always asume that you pretty much max out your options to have the best possible chances. This is great as long as those options are limited to a reasonable amount for everyone. The AP grind sadly is not atleast not if they keep it with the 1000+ dungeons.
I mean at the end it doesnt really matter what I think or want because Blizzard doesnt listen or atleast they doesnt care about feedback as you can see what happened with all the MM Hunter stuff. They will just keep doing what they think is cool what ofc is pretty much off if you dont play your game.
It´s just sad that they destroy what differed them from the other MMOs: any opportunity for fair competition. In 7.2 they are pretty much deleting serious PvP from the game and are making PvE worse. Maybe in 7.3 they will put an end to serious PvE too. For me they pretty much lose their best selling point compared to other MMOs. I just cant see how cutting off your most loyal player base (the competetive) to make a cockie cutter Asia Grinder MMO is a good idea but yeah atleast it is a nice textbook example of how to turn one of the best Games into mediocrity by giving up on their key features.
anyone can get 860 in one day from hitting level 110 with just a little bit of effort, from there you can get 880/885
thats the item level you can do instanced pvp, world pvp, and any lfr/dungeon/mythic+10 and even nh normal/hc, i know its not item level 905, but who cares rly, i don't play to get items, items are just something extra you get while playing the game with friends, if people don't want you because "omg no bis legendary, no stats priority, no item level, no curve" its all in theire head, its not a wow problem, or a blizzard problem, its a community problem. The community is ruining this game, more than blizzard itself. Ive been removed from groups for the silliest reasons, like "arcane mage when fire is so much better ? kick" happened for a whole month, and u know what? fck those people. i play what i like, i don't play what they want. If i decide to go fire, is because i enjoy fire, not because fire is viable, arcane seemed alot of fun for blink/displacement so ive played that for months without even considering off spec.
I remember getting invited into a nightbane run with the leader saying "its rly easy dw if you don't have achivement ill explain fight, only thing is if you are bad at dps" told him "nah arcane does nice dmg in dungeon, its bad in raids, but for dungeon fights its pretty awesome because you can burst, evocation, burst and the fight is over" "omg not fire?" removed. without a word, and before i could ask anything i was in ignore already ;)
"omg blizzard ruin the game, why arcane not viable, why not bis legendary to give me better dps output" no man, its all a community thing.
@Krebsbein: Couldn't have expressed the problem any better.


(...)
You are asking for the game to be tailored around a very specific bracket of people without consideration for the greater population.

That in itself is intrinsically ignorant.

That is the core problem, Blizzard cannot serve everybody. But I think farming titanforged gear in mythic+ dungeons is enough occupational therapy for the 99% bracket u mentioned.
13/02/2017 11:28Posted by Ornstein

Progression is not gated by traits, the same way it is not gated by gear.


And that is where you are wrong. Raiders can get very viable gear by having done the previous content. 71 traits vs. 51 traits on the other hand is (according to current ptr information) ~10% more dps and 15% more health - PER PERSON! 15% more health means, to give an example, being able to take one more marc of frost tick (Aluriel mythic) and thus greatly helps. Blizzard should just nerf the gain per trait and remove the health gains on traits, rebalance the classes and i'd be fine with it.
13/02/2017 12:30Posted by Krebsbein
The problem is that blizzard is more and more destroying the competetive aspect of the game. They decrease the meaning of skill and teamplay while making rng and time investment very impactful. Look at the loot system. It is allready super luck based titanforged items and the legendarys overall makes it pretty meaninless what you do in the game it all comes down to be lucky in reciving an good item. The AP Grind is just insane and ofc you dont have to do it but then you are missing any solid ground for competetive gameplay. An Maxed Out Weapon is what you could call an equal ground for competition but if reaching this "starting point" takes so much time to reach it destroys any kind of fair competition. Sure I dont have to do it but someone will and this way there will be no competition between us. If you talk about high-end content you always asume that you pretty much max out your options to have the best possible chances. This is great as long as those options are limited to a reasonable amount for everyone. The AP grind sadly is not atleast not if they keep it with the 1000+ dungeons.
I mean at the end it doesnt really matter what I think or want because Blizzard doesnt listen or atleast they doesnt care about feedback as you can see what happened with all the MM Hunter stuff. They will just keep doing what they think is cool what ofc is pretty much off if you dont play your game.
It´s just sad that they destroy what differed them from the other MMOs: any opportunity for fair competition. In 7.2 they are pretty much deleting serious PvP from the game and are making PvE worse. Maybe in 7.3 they will put an end to serious PvE too. For me they pretty much lose their best selling point compared to other MMOs. I just cant see how cutting off your most loyal player base (the competetive) to make a cockie cutter Asia Grinder MMO is a good idea but yeah atleast it is a nice textbook example of how to turn one of the best Games into mediocrity by giving up on their key features.


I do undestand if people in Blizzard look at what you say and say "yeah nope, gonna look at some others posts" when you are sprouting pure bigotry(aimed at your last part).

Maybe Blizzard are seeing your feedback and talking about, but have you maybe thought that they disagree with you? That they are also recieving feedback, that the trait is a good thing? Instead of putting up arguments and letting them stand against other arguments, you put it out like you, personally, are being ignored by the higher ops because they can't come up with a counterargument... Maybe it is just, that your argumenst are so easy to shoot down, that you are not worth the blue paint for a blue post to reply.
thank you for pointing it out Silenthit.
Most positive feedback doesn't even get to be posted on forum, people who enjoy this game, PLAY and NEVER come on the forum or almost never.
#JustLikeTripAdvisor
13/02/2017 13:18Posted by Silenthit

Maybe Blizzard are seeing your feedback and talking about, but have you maybe thought that they disagree with you? That they are also recieving feedback, that the trait is a good thing? Instead of putting up arguments and letting them stand against other arguments, you put it out like you, personally, are being ignored by the higher ops because they can't come up with a counterargument... Maybe it is just, that your argumenst are so easy to shoot down, that you are not worth the blue paint for a blue post to reply.

Well this topic is maybe not a perfect example for what I mean with that. Thats why I gave the example of the hunter stuff. No Hunter I know ingame told me that the changes are great and hunter is super fun they told me the opposite and the forum seems to agree on this for the most part. All I have seen from Blizz about that toppic is "Hunter is fine. Works as intended". Still the majority of hunter players seem to be disappointed. My post was not made to make Blizzard think damn this guy is right because as with the hunter example I simply cant see them caring in any way. It was just my Point of view trying to explain why I think this is bad. Ofc I know that AP is great if you have fun playing the game just for fun. But it´s not if your fun is in competing against and with other players and in defeating (hard) Bosses. You can check the profiles of (almost) everyone who says they like the AP System. 99% of them are not actively raiding mythic content. Thats the problem of the System only being great if you dont care about the high-end content. Many (multiplayer)games have the problem that they are great until you become really good at the game and want to be really good. Then they are losing their fun. WoW imo was different because it was rewarding if you want to be really good. Now WoW is losing this aspect which I liked so much about it to cater to a more casual player base.
sooo... i really like that ap-farming is a grind in my opinion it should not make fun at all and bring back some classic wow feeling BUT with those requirements in 7.2 the grind is over, because it will cause apathie to the ap system everybody will feel like ikarus who wants to hug the sun. The grind should not take longer than the original 54 grind tbh.

P.S.: make ap timegated so that a HoV, MoS, RBG, Arena give the same amount of AP for the same time invested plsssssssssssss
P.P.S.: and btw dont extend the catch up mechanisms because those people who play hardcore and invest a lot of time ingame will be less rewarded. thjs all people get the 54 perks-percentage buff is just stupid. people just wait and get the same out of it as people who really do something for it.... :(
its been going in that direction for years, and everytime it starts to regain his signature aspects you'd guess people would stomp crying, nope, they do the exact same thing.

Add X 10.000 players cries
remove X 10.000 players cries.
Total Player 50.000
those 20.000 players providing feedback are IRRILEVANT. the rants on the forum don't represent how every player feels in this game, i had complains in every expansions, but they rarely matched with the majority of the rants on the forum, i guess im special, or maybe not everyone who plays this game post theire opinions on the forum, and those who do hopefully don't even get considered because when they do its when !@#$ happens.
Lets suppose every 10 players there are 2 actual gamers (you know hardcore players)
8 casuals 2 harcore
if 4 casuals and 1 hardcore post on the forum, and the 4 casuals post the same thing, and it gets considered as actual feedback, well now you know why this game is getting worse.
Only REAL players know what is best for this game, other people think they know best and "i should be dev because i would do this and that" "yeah yeah you are right" it doesn't mean anything if randoms approve other randoms, and i don't classy players basing on how much they clear or the rating they get.
If i had to say how you classify a player, is how much time they play and how much they enjoy different aspects of the game at the same time.
Rank1 player is no hardcore to me
Cutting edge is no hardcore to me
Player who plays EVERYTHING in the game is real hardcore.
while its true that making the game more appealing for casuals and easier might get more new players into it, they will eventually get bored, that's how it always worked.
if tomorrow there was no artifact power, and everyone would have instant 110 i promise you for 2-3 weeks people would be super happy, and try all classes and spec, and than the game would just die for real.
Call me mad if i mainly play 1 class and have 1 alt, but at least i do enjoy the game everyday.
13/02/2017 12:57Posted by Letho
@Krebsbein: Couldn't have expressed the problem any better.


(...)
You are asking for the game to be tailored around a very specific bracket of people without consideration for the greater population.

That in itself is intrinsically ignorant.

That is the core problem, Blizzard cannot serve everybody. But I think farming titanforged gear in mythic+ dungeons is enough occupational therapy for the 99% bracket u mentioned.
13/02/2017 11:28Posted by Ornstein

Progression is not gated by traits, the same way it is not gated by gear.


And that is where you are wrong. Raiders can get very viable gear by having done the previous content. 71 traits vs. 51 traits on the other hand is (according to current ptr information) ~10% more dps and 15% more health - PER PERSON! 15% more health means, to give an example, being able to take one more marc of frost tick (Aluriel mythic) and thus greatly helps. Blizzard should just nerf the gain per trait and remove the health gains on traits, rebalance the classes and i'd be fine with it.


71!traits are not required for nighthold, younger your 54 for free for TOS and I bet that the mythic race will be over before the top guilds have their 71s.

If your not up there then your not in competative raiding, it's your own challenge you are setting for yourself - if you need to cushion yourself with the traits then that's fine man but maybe it should therefore take you a little longer to clear your content then no?

Also it's PTR - not only is the AP cost placeholder right now, so are the traits themselves. This is feedback, I get it. People would like it to be more obtainable.

Don't come out with a self righteous armada of reasons why it's wrong though, because that's the kind of opinion that will just get overlooked because someone thinks that justifying their outrage will somehow get them what they want.

Pick up your toys, get them back in your pram and try to enjoy yourself.
12/02/2017 22:38Posted by Ornstein
Your not being forced to do anything and you are completely viable.

Getting to 35 is pretty much mandatory right now if you ask me but beyond that it's all a bonus.

The whole point is for a feeling of progression, if your interpreting that as a grind then you shouldn't be playing an MMO.

If your looking for a way to quickly reach peak power and get instant gratification try a MoBA.
except the harder bosses of M NH need 54traits + good gear.
13/02/2017 12:57Posted by Letho
@Krebsbein: Couldn't have expressed the problem any better.


(...)
You are asking for the game to be tailored around a very specific bracket of people without consideration for the greater population.

That in itself is intrinsically ignorant.

That is the core problem, Blizzard cannot serve everybody. But I think farming titanforged gear in mythic+ dungeons is enough occupational therapy for the 99% bracket u mentioned.
13/02/2017 11:28Posted by Ornstein

Progression is not gated by traits, the same way it is not gated by gear.


And that is where you are wrong. Raiders can get very viable gear by having done the previous content. 71 traits vs. 51 traits on the other hand is (according to current ptr information) ~10% more dps and 15% more health - PER PERSON! 15% more health means, to give an example, being able to take one more marc of frost tick (Aluriel mythic) and thus greatly helps. Blizzard should just nerf the gain per trait and remove the health gains on traits, rebalance the classes and i'd be fine with it.


Psst, 10% PER PERSON still means 10% more for the entire raid ;)
13/02/2017 19:46Posted by Sagira


Psst, 10% PER PERSON still means 10% more for the entire raid ;)

Which is the same like having 1,4 dds more in your 20 men raid. This is huge ;P
13/02/2017 13:25Posted by Vurtne
thank you for pointing it out Silenthit.
Most positive feedback doesn't even get to be posted on forum, people who enjoy this game, PLAY and NEVER come on the forum or almost never.
#JustLikeTripAdvisor


How does this post get downvoted? I mean seriously people are you so tunnel visioned on your opinion that you simply hate it when people mention how things in the entire world work?
It's simple: A happy customer hardly ever let's you know about it, while an unhappy customer will keep complaining. (I work in tech support for about 6 years by now and I have literally had one contact with a customer who called to let us know he is happy...)
Blizzard doesn't force anyone to grind, it is the players who force themselfs.

Anyone saw "From Scratch"'s tweet about going casual for the next raid since they simply wanted to !!!enjoy!!! the game?
( https://twitter.com/FromScratchWoW/status/831245853427904512 )
If you feel forced to grind like mad and you don't enjoy it, really concider if the game is doing it wrong or if you might be doing something wrong.

If you want to endgame and race that is totally ok but then live with the grind that comes with it, always came with it and always will be coming with it.
Just a quick note: the 7.2 Artifact Knowledge and Artifact Power curves that have been datamined are not final - what you're seeing is just temporary values. With those temporary values, the increase from Artifact Knowledge scales linearly, while the Artifact Power required to purchase the next trait increases exponentially. This makes it seem as though the new traits are intended to require far more effort to earn than was the case in 7.0, which is not the case.

The PTR build coming today doesn't yet have the correct numbers, but next week's build should. At that point, you should see a much lower expectation for how much effort will be required to unlock the new traits.
if its more than 150 dungeons from the point i get my 54 refunded traits i'm not playing since its just not fun running 250x same dungeon because other ones are not efficient to do.

Increase the AP amount gained from HoV, BRH, EoA, VotW, Arcway, so they are in line with other dungeons regarding how fast you can run them.
14/02/2017 21:25Posted by Blueskye
Increase the AP amount gained from HoV, BRH, EoA, VotW, Arcway, so they are in line with other dungeons regarding how fast you can run them.


This please. The AP reward from a M+ dungeon should be relative to the time it takes to complete that dungeon in time. Doubling the AP reward from those 5 dungeons above would be a start. I can't believe it wasn't changed ages ago when people figured this out tbh.

Whilst we're on the subject, I think AP gain from higher-end raid bosses - especially on mythic difficulty - should be increased as well. Getting only half the AP from a mythic NH boss, which may take hours to kill, when compared to a 10 minute MoS run is not great.

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