MW Monks and Mythic Raiding

Class Development
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28/03/2017 11:29Posted by Thelasti
Again - why are you posting stuff I don't question and even make it look like I do?

Why do you think I'm trying to answer you as you point your post at me? I'm using your points to tell Blizzard how bad Monks are performing. Now I'm going to refer to you:

28/03/2017 11:29Posted by Thelasti
... and then you go ahead and make a comparison between our cd's and yours, which is slightly odd, since I did nothing but emphasise that we are taken for those cd's. And seriously mate - are you really including Bloodlust in that list ... . As for the artifact skill - it is more clunky than it looks at first glance. But I would get too technical to elaborate on it here.

Yeah I'm definitely including Bloodlust on that list. In case you didn't read these 13 pages it's not about raids but also for high m+, where you need a class with bloodlust, so you are damn right it's in that list.
That artifact skill is amazing compared to monks artifact skill.

28/03/2017 11:29Posted by Thelasti
If you have such an issue with other healers coming in and not just swallow your opinion unquestioned, then you basically don't want any dialogue - I personally find it rather sad, that you turn around and present us as enemies when we really could be (are) your supporters. I can't see how that helps anyone accomplish anything, and I have to say I draw some conclusions from that.

I don't care if you swallow my opinion or not, because it is not an opinion if it is backed up with statistics, I did the math in previous posts. Check the logs or read the previous posts where other MW's went into the math of everything. I did not write that post to answer you, I did that post so when a blue comes reading he might see that difference in 2 healing specs and maybe think of altering MW monks. Because this topic is not about individuals but about how bad MW is performing at the moment.
@Vedil
Ok - but since we don't have a dialogue .. at all, it seems, why include my posts? I did not refer to the last 13 pages (I read the first 4-5 and agreed even on the first page ... did you even notice that?) - I mean, do you even care about where and how ppl talk in general - nor was I even referring to you at all. I look at logs on daily basis - ... yeah, really. I even look beyond the numbers, unless you blindly follow statistics ... if you think there is "absolute truths" outside anything given precise mathematical sense, then I completely disagree.

So if you just blindly like to use other ppls conversations, cherrypick statements out of context and manipulate statements in order to promote your cause - then I can only say, that you seem like a nice sort of guy - and that you just confirmed the feeling I had regarding that insinuation.
Given that - the rest is just scribbles - have a nice life.
I haven't posted in this thread for a long time because I've watched my post about MYTHIC MW RAIDING turn into a conversation where people with 0 mythic raiding experience give highly dubious 'opinions' based on absolutely nothing and also a thread to discuss MW vs Resto Shaman for some strange reason. Please don't do this. There are no good points that can be made by discussing the healer with the most utility in the game vs the healer with the least, especially while R.Shaman throughput is just as good as MW.

This is just silly guys. I appreciate that you've all helped make this post the most discussed thread on these particular forums, but the pointless arguing needs to stop. Reading the last few pages gives me a headache. Not only because its full of misinformation, but also because I'm witnessing people personally attack each other, and for what purpose?

7.2 MW is just as bad if not worse than it has been previously. This is because Whispers of Shaohao and Effusive Mists which have been added are both beyond pointless, we have the worst 2pc and 4pc T20 out of all the healers and the other healing classes have at least seen some kind of improvement with the changes made in 7.2 yet our changes have only cemented the view that we are 'deadspec' in mythic raiding.
Whispers of Shaohao is so bad I can't believe it went live.
To be able to make this evident to you, I'm simply going to link to what Garg said on the US forums as I can not explain it any better than him (also read Celestial's post below Garg's for more relevant feedback on this issue) :
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20753097476?page=8#post-157
Going through the new traits on PTR, Whispers of Shaohao is severely punishing if there's any sort of movement on fights, or if your group is spread out, away from your mist clouds, since that's what's used as a basis for healing through Whispers.

Using Essence Font as a basis for range, the range from a cloud to a player is severely limiting in practice.

A worse part is that no one can see the mist clouds until you're already casting the spell, leading to no one knowing where to stand to be healed by this spell.

The idea of Whispers is fun in practice, especially since Effuse builds stacks of Sheilun's Gift for it through the Effusive Mists trait. but in practice it's unrewarding, limiting, and painful to see it heal so inconsistently.
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Effusive Mists is also beyond pointless in a Mythic raiding environment because SG still has the same cast time and Effuse is still pretty pointless to cast.

Our T20 just adds more RNG and cements our mana management playstyle where as all the other healing classes got a throughput increase.

Still no sign of any kind of utility that improves us either.
Once again, myself and MANY MANY other MW Monks have given the developers PLENTY of warning as we have tested and given feedback on these changes, and once again our feedback has been completely ignored by the people who design this class. Our efforts have ended up being completely futile and that is really sad.

At the end of the day (and I'm talking to the devs here) if you have absolutely no clue on how to improve MW in Mythic raiding (and you honestly don't) then you should listen to the people who actually play this class and care about it.
Hell, fly me over to Blizzard head office, give me 48 hours to spend talking to these people and you'll find MW in a much better place than it is now.
I'm not even joking. Just take the person who has been developing MW this expansion and put them back on the Diablo dev team, they do not deserve to be working on this game or this class. Their ideas are ALL useless, and I honestly mean ALL.
Bumping this thread to not make it fall into oblivion.
Shaoshao buffed/fixed?
On the initial 7.2.5 PTR, we are trying out a version of Essence Font that is even stronger, but has a cooldown. In addition to some combination of a healing increase and mana cost reduction, the duration of the HoT will be increased.

Essence Font having no cooldown has held back the spell and the spec in a few ways. It essentially says that three relatively heavy heals (Essence Font, Enveloping Mist, Vivify) have to compete with each other at all times. The texture of using a heavy spell on a short cooldown, then falling back to the decision between spammable spells (selecting based on cost, number of targets, etc.) is common among healers for good reason. And Essence Font's HoT mechanic that improves mastery is meant to specifically enhance that sort of gameplay, and will be more effective on a spell with a cooldown.

As already mentioned, the first change that comes along with it is buffing Essence Font itself. It no longer has to be held back by "if it gets too much stronger than e.g. Vivify, people will only use Essence Font", and can simply be a high-priority spell. We will make other adjustments as needed for gameplay or tuning.
Changes are welcome. Hope range of essence font and traits will be looked into as well. Celestial Breath has its visuals looks like it has 20 yrd long range but 12 in function.

Also soothing mist is close to useless in its currenty incarnation. It basicly has no function. If the low healing is needed like it then dps will better if heavier healing is needed then casted spells are the way.
I'm all for moving the spec away from the degenerate Essence Font spam playstyle, but you guys realize that by giving it a cooldown mistweaver will have zero on demand healing? Imagine doing a boss like mythic Krosus. He starts doing his big chain of high burst damage abilities. You cast Essence Font and your one UT Vivify and now there's no real !@#$%^-ed healing you can do untill EF comes off cooldown or you get a new UT proc.

Giving EF a CD when Vivify also has an effective CD since it's not worth casting without a UT proc makes no sense. Effuse is good filler with the new traits and ToS set bonuses, sure, but it's simply no good for any kind of on demand burst healing. Enveloping Mists is a really awkward spell as its long cast time typically makes it bad for emergency healing, but its short duration typically makes it bad for long term sustain healing. It is conditionally very useful, for example on Star Augur's Icy Ejections, but most bosses simply aren't designed in a way that allows enveloping to become our go to spell. If you are going to give Essence Font a cooldown, I think you should strongly consider redesigning Vivify to become strong without UT procs, and maybe remove the UT mechanic altogether.
31/03/2017 23:51Posted by Sigma
On the initial 7.2.5 PTR, we are trying out a version of Essence Font that is even stronger, but has a cooldown. In addition to some combination of a healing increase and mana cost reduction, the duration of the HoT will be increased.

Essence Font having no cooldown has held back the spell and the spec in a few ways. It essentially says that three relatively heavy heals (Essence Font, Enveloping Mist, Vivify) have to compete with each other at all times. The texture of using a heavy spell on a short cooldown, then falling back to the decision between spammable spells (selecting based on cost, number of targets, etc.) is common among healers for good reason. And Essence Font's HoT mechanic that improves mastery is meant to specifically enhance that sort of gameplay, and will be more effective on a spell with a cooldown.

As already mentioned, the first change that comes along with it is buffing Essence Font itself. It no longer has to be held back by "if it gets too much stronger than e.g. Vivify, people will only use Essence Font", and can simply be a high-priority spell. We will make other adjustments as needed for gameplay or tuning.

Nice to see some changes made to the Mistweaver Sigma.

Any chance that other issues like Vivify's mastery procc only affecting the first target, Effuse being not worth casting most of the time or Sheiluns Gift cast time get some attention?
It you look to mythic raiding and the few good ranked mistweavers they are using not very much essence font actually. So I think buffing this spell with a cooldown as long as it is not like 30s could be an idea. This saying the toolkit around EF has to be buffed to compete in terms of number/healing with the other healers, as numbers show that it is lacking already today.
With EF on cooldown do you also think about rework of 100talents, especially mana tea? Because EF was what tea actually was good for.
I'm afraid that this change will come out as a major nerf than a buff since the new playstyle would force you to use Essence Font, but then spam Vivify which is arguably the most random spell of our entire kit since it doesn't care if those "wounded targets" have 99,9% health or not.
Since it's healing is bound to just 3 targets the mana will be wasted way more efficiently than a Prayer of Healing for a priest would ever do. It relies on procs to be cast btw. Unprocced the mana waste is much higher than it already is.

So... what's the alternative?
Yeah.. spam Effuse!
...and Renewing Mist, IF not on cooldown... another factor we depend on... the Mistweaver isn't just bad, he is more and more going closer to be the equivilent of a slot machine...

What's wrong with Effuse? Oh. It encourages you to spam a spell that has pretty much no healing output, but encourages you to play with a horrific mastery.
But Soothing Mist is the reason why we have such high mana costs... right? Isn't it somewhat contraproductive to spam heals that cost mana in order to prevent us from channeling Soothing Mist that's the counterweight to be able to regenerate some mana while giving out some laughable heals?

The new Effuse-Artifact-Traits don't do any difference to that since, if they really would give us free mists to be used on a "Gift of Sheilun"-cast, then HOW THE HELL should the indirect group heal be applied since the overall theme of this very spell is "the target is already healed when the cast is finally over". It would get an additional meme: "I'm not group healing while I'm casting to heal targets that will the full on health at the time the cast is finished".

Enveloping Mist is no alternative in any raid healing scenario.

I'm just giving up on the devs...
31/03/2017 23:51Posted by Sigma
On the initial 7.2.5 PTR, we are trying out a version of Essence Font that is even stronger, but has a cooldown. In addition to some combination of a healing increase and mana cost reduction, the duration of the HoT will be increased.

Essence Font having no cooldown has held back the spell and the spec in a few ways. It essentially says that three relatively heavy heals (Essence Font, Enveloping Mist, Vivify) have to compete with each other at all times. The texture of using a heavy spell on a short cooldown, then falling back to the decision between spammable spells (selecting based on cost, number of targets, etc.) is common among healers for good reason. And Essence Font's HoT mechanic that improves mastery is meant to specifically enhance that sort of gameplay, and will be more effective on a spell with a cooldown.

As already mentioned, the first change that comes along with it is buffing Essence Font itself. It no longer has to be held back by "if it gets too much stronger than e.g. Vivify, people will only use Essence Font", and can simply be a high-priority spell. We will make other adjustments as needed for gameplay or tuning.


I like the wild growth style tbh. That beeing said i hate effuse. I would love to see effuse removed and vivify buffed or mana cost reduced (with vivify triggering effusive mists trait and t20 set). I feel we dont really need effuse and the cleave healing vivify is a nice distinction from other healers while envoloping is great for tank and DoT healing.
Chi wave is bad. Very bad. Most of us that have used chi wave know this. It is a spell not worth the global cooldown.

After reading the patch note changes in 7.2.5, that Essence of font will have a CD. I think it is time for Blizzard to think about fixing Chi wave at the same time. Essence of font in raids is a must. With a CD on Essence of font we will be forced to do a vivify spam. CD on Essence of font will create a big hole in our rotation. And I think if Blizzard takes the time to fix both Chi wave and Essence of font next patch that this hole in our rotation could be patched.

The general idea of Chi wave is not bad. It is just badly implemented. I think Chi wave should work like this:

Currently Chi wave bounces to one target and if no other target is close the bounce dies out. In my opinion it should work like this, the person receiving the bounce should get a temporary buff. Once he is close to someone the bounce continues. One example is also if the target get the buff and no one is close, this "Bounce buff" become a hot. This hot will consume some of the healing the next player should have gotten after the bounce.

I think the buff should have a duration of around 30sec.

Also one example would be, if all in close proximity has full health and a bounce cannot be done. The overhealing would go to power the next bounce.

Currently it says that the bounce is up to 7 players. I would rater it be down to 4 but have much greater healing output like :
(#=bounce) -> 1#: 500k, 2#: 350k, 3#: 250k, 4#: 150k

A lot could be done with Chi wave. I think that Essence of font on CD and a great Chi wave spell would complete each other. It would fix a lot of MW issues and make MW a very fun class to play.
If changing Essence Font to have a cooldown is what it takes for the devs to have a more in depth look at balancing the rest of our toolkit, then I'm happy with that.

The question has to be asked though, will you be taking this opportunity to improve MW to the extent where we will justify a raid spot?
If not, then a change to our currently biggest healing source will be met with severe criticism my most of the community.

If you've placed a c/d on it, what changes will you be making to its range and can we cast it while moving? Even changing the Light on your feet trait in our artifact to 'Essence font can be channelled while moving' would be good. This would also free up the possibility of a much better interaction with TfT.

The biggest fear for most of us is that having EF on too long a CD is simply taking way too much healing potential away from us and probably leading us into a game style which ultimately will end up costing us more mana for less throughput.

As much as the mana cost of EF is rather high, it is very mana efficient for the total healing you get out of it in the end.

As MWs we've been scraping the bottom of the raiding barrel for way too long now and we've spoken at length in this thread as to why that is. As much as we appreciate change, is this really the thing that is going to propel us into a raid spot or convince people to play this spec?

It is difficult to meet these kind of changes with any degree of positivity considering you haven't mentioned how long the c/d will be or what particular changes will be made to the other spells.
01/04/2017 13:41Posted by Eduan
Chi wave is bad. Very bad. Most of us that have used chi wave know this. It is a spell not worth the global cooldown.

After reading the patch note changes in 7.2.5, that Essence of font will have a CD. I think it is time for Blizzard to think about fixing Chi wave at the same time. Essence of font in raids is a must. With a CD on Essence of font we will be forced to do a vivify spam. CD on Essence of font will create a big hole in our rotation. And I think if Blizzard takes the time to fix both Chi wave and Essence of font next patch that this hole in our rotation could be patched.

The general idea of Chi wave is not bad. It is just badly implemented.


I totally agree with you. My fantasy of Chi wave is something like:
"Bounces to 7 friendly targets within 20y, benefit from mastery or applying some kind of absorb damage"
The bouncing mechanic between friendlies and enemies decrease it's performance since it takes small % of your SP as heal..and half of its bounces is spent on enemies... increase CD to 20-30 seconds, increase its healing or make it heal from mastery each bounce even at half efectivness and you will see more people using this at spread fights than Chi Burst which is used everytime even only to cover melees with tanks.

Also I'm kinda satisfied with Blizz idea of EF with CD to boost its performance.
BUT there is a lot of things we need to look at...
How long CD will be
Possible reduction of that CD
How to boost abilites, while EF is on CD etc.

We can have EF with CD as long as applied HoT, which makes us able to cast it right after HoT finishes its duration.
or We can have EF with longer CD, but with passive reduction from e.g. double proc mastery (When you heal people with EF HoT, EF's CD is reduced by XX)
Also with EF on CD there is need to compensate healing output from other healing spells to cover raid with some burst healing, that could be done with casting another EF with mana tea or innervate active.
e.g. Effuse reduces CD of EF by XX, all Vivify targets benefit from mastery heal, Renewing Mist is cast on 2 injured target with half duration each.

I also understand that all this is just fantasy from one player and final form of adjustments will be different, but I hope Blizzard will really look into it and takes something from monks feedback.
31/03/2017 23:51Posted by Sigma
On the initial 7.2.5 PTR, we are trying out a version of Essence Font that is even stronger, but has a cooldown. In addition to some combination of a healing increase and mana cost reduction, the duration of the HoT will be increased.

Essence Font having no cooldown has held back the spell and the spec in a few ways. It essentially says that three relatively heavy heals (Essence Font, Enveloping Mist, Vivify) have to compete with each other at all times. The texture of using a heavy spell on a short cooldown, then falling back to the decision between spammable spells (selecting based on cost, number of targets, etc.) is common among healers for good reason. And Essence Font's HoT mechanic that improves mastery is meant to specifically enhance that sort of gameplay, and will be more effective on a spell with a cooldown.

As already mentioned, the first change that comes along with it is buffing Essence Font itself. It no longer has to be held back by "if it gets too much stronger than e.g. Vivify, people will only use Essence Font", and can simply be a high-priority spell. We will make other adjustments as needed for gameplay or tuning.


Thank you for response.
I guess we can hope that "other adjustments as needed for gameplay or tuning" could mean change to the TFT effect for Essence Font?
By the way, are you satisfied with TFT effects in general?

Also there is one thing that seems concearning - with EF on a cd we won't have the possibility to go Mana tea + EF spam which was our burst raid healing. Wouldn't we lack It?
I feel like it's hard to achieve high peak hps on monk.
Personally think they are good right now... No need to change... The beauty of the monk is the availability of spells. The no cool down on spells makes it so that It can potentially be very punishing if you play it wrong and drain your mana... The toolkit in itself is amazing being able to pump roughly 300k hps without spending mana is fun ... Fitting another revival into the fight is also an aspect that all healers try to do... Lastly the artifact ability although not the most exciting, however useful and the new added traits allow for more control to build and detonate.... In summary I think the mw is in a good place in pve, the proposed addition of a cool down for essence font removes control and decision making from the healer and could potential be quite frustrating... Please don't change
Ps monk is by far the most engaging / relaxing healer to play
300k hps is nothing tho.

MW right now is just a specc where we want to save any mana for essence font or UT vivify. Unless we get wisdoms or innervates we dont really want to use our other spells as they are less mana effective then Essence Font. Mana tea is used for essence font, focus tea is used for free vivify and life cycles isnt used, cos we dont use Enveloping Mist enought for it, expensive and overheals to much in raids.

Hopefully this look into the specc will give the specc an identity and / or nitch instead of the flat specc it is now.
Well at least, it will help MWs raiding with no innervates to stay competitive with others MWs having tones of innervates !
Even if the changes made to the other spells are enough to cover the healing output lost to having EF on a cooldown, that still leaves us bottom of hps and utility in Nighthold / ToS, but with a new healing style to get used to during progression.
Basically this change needs to end up givings us the same kind of sustainable throughput in mythic raids as druids and paladins or we'll suffer further in 7.2.5.
That still wouldn't address the issue of our limited utility in raids though.

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