PSA: Creatures now scale with item level

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29/03/2017 06:49Posted by Watcher
Apologies for the delay in getting information out on this - our initial focus was on putting out other patch-day fires.

Yes, this reflects a deliberate change, but it's also not working exactly as we intended. The scaling may be too steep, and the fact that unequipping a piece of gear can ever be helpful is a bug in the system. We'll be looking into making changes to correct this in the very near future.

Power progression is an essential part of the WoW endgame, and the last thing we want is to undermine that. We stressed the importance of that progression when discussing how the level-scaling system worked in Legion around the time of the expansion's launch, and explained why we then had no plans to scale foes' power based on gear. But as we've watched Legion unfold, we've come to observe some side-effects of our endgame content plan and the associated rewards structure that made us reconsider.

We've never had the initial outdoor world content stay relevant for this long in an expansion before. By the end of Mists of Pandaria, for example, the mantid of Dread Wastes that had once been reasonable foes were completely trivial. They'd basically evaporate if a raid-geared player looked in their general direction. But there wasn't much reason besides achievements or completionism to revisit the Klaxxi dailies once Isle of Thunder was out or, later on, Timeless Isle. And the enemies in those later zones could be tuned to a proportionally more challenging baseline difficulty.

But in Legion, while the new content in Broken Shore is the focus of 7.2, and we've made sure that the core outdoor rewards (both dropped and from Nethershards) are superior to the rep-related rewards from the original factions, the intent is not for the Broken Shore to completely replace the rest of the game. You'll still go back to the other Broken Isles zones for emissaries, Legion Assaults (coming next week!), Order campaign quests, improved world quest rewards, and more. And as 7.1 and 7.1.5 progressed, we could see that even with Nighthold gear the pacing of combat was getting a bit silly - what would happen once new content made that level of gear more common, and once the Tomb raid pushed limits even higher?

To reiterate, power progression is an essential part of the WoW endgame. We absolutely want you to feel overpowered as you return to steamroll content that once was challenging. But there's a threshold beyond which the game's core mechanics start to break down. When someone trying to wind up a 2.5sec cast can't get a nuke off against a quest target before another player charges in and one-shots it, that feels broken. And even for the Mythic-geared bringer of death and destruction, when everything dies nearly instantly, you spend more time looting corpses than you do making them. You spend an order of magnitude longer traveling to a quest location than you do killing the quest target. You stop using your core class abilities and instead focus on spamming instants to tap mobs as quickly as possible before they die.

Our goal is basically to safeguard against that degenerate extreme. We tune outdoor combat for a fresh 110 around a 12-15sec duration against a standard non-elite, non-boss enemy. It's great for gear, over the course of an expansion to cut that time in half, or even by two-thirds. But once you get down to a duration of one or two global cooldowns, the game just wasn't built to support that as the norm. (Note that this is an current-content endgame concern; running legacy content for completion/transmog/etc. purposes is a totally different story.)

The intent of our change in 7.2 was to smooth out that progression curve a bit, not flatten it out, and certainly never to invert it. If you get a great set of item upgrades that make you 5% stronger, maybe the world gets 1-2% tougher. Perhaps instead of getting 400% stronger over the course of the expansion relative to the outdoor world, you only get 250% stronger. But you should always be getting more powerful in relative terms, and upgrades should always matter. From some reactions so far, it sounds like we may be off on that tuning. And as noted above, the fact that unequipping items can ever be helpful is a bug that we'll be investigating and fixing.

Finally, there's the natural question of why we didn't patch-note this. It was not to be deceptive; we know it's impossible to hide a change from millions of players. But the system was meant to feel largely transparent and subtle, just like level-scaling does if you don't stop and really think about it, and so we did want players to first experience the change organically. Your feedback and reactions and first impressions of the system are more useful in this particular case when they are not skewed by the experience of logging in and actively trying to spot the differences. Thank you for that, and I look forward to continued discussion.


This is all fine and dandy as reasons for this change. But We spend time to boost ilvl to steamroll mobs. So if this gets harder to do then I would expect another type of payment for the time spent to get the ilvl. Like an increase in drop a guaranteed ilvl minimum. Maybe bonus gold/reagents.

if there is no reward for it then there is no real point to get higher ilvl.

And on a side not. The thing with the bosses or quest mobs or what ever. They respawn in like 2 minutes. All of them. So not getting a shot of because someone oneshots it is not really a problem is it? And there is no real benefit to killing a questmob or boss repeatedly since it only rewards you once. And big bosses dont get oneshotted. They have too much HP.

The logic is sound in the change but when tested mobs die at same speed even with a 100 point difference in ilvl. and that is flawed. Make the mob gain slightly more armor and slightly more hp. At like 0.01% per ilvl or something.
29/03/2017 20:38Posted by Deadduchess
Elite add on WQ - not ok.


dont think elite mobs should be faceroll anyways.
This is absolutely HORRIBLE!
It defeats ALL purpose of RPG feeling in this game.

The entire point is to feel more powerful, ffs! (Sorry for swearing, just upset)
PLEASE TELL ME IT IS A BUG!!!!
Revert it!!
29/03/2017 21:06Posted by Waleria
29/03/2017 20:38Posted by Deadduchess
Elite add on WQ - not ok.


dont think elite mobs should be faceroll anyways.


Sure if you are DPS.

Do you know what is fun? Spending 5 minutes whacking a lead ball that just refuses to die, because it has 40% more stats now. Tanks that had 54 traits are nerfed right now for World Questing.
29/03/2017 21:01Posted by Waleria
ah well seems, getting points out is not a good idea here, or having different view eighter.

the funny thing is, people screamed wow is to easy, there is no challenge, and now when there is challenge, par Blizzard said that scaling might be quite off now, people are annoyed about it.
those who played in Vanilla or tbc heck even wrath knows mobs didnt die in 2 shots, it took time and over pulling made you die horribly.

now I am not saying this way is right eighter if people in lower gear is stuggling things need to change.

I know I am gona get downvoted to oblivion about this post but can not realy care.

But I have one question what do you want, stopidly easy mobs to kill or atleast some challenge, or are you just annoyed becuse blizzard didnt tell you about this.


I see what you are saying. But somewhere along the way from vanilla it went from "Killing mobs to get something" to PULLING A !@#$LOAD OF MOBS FOR HOURS to get something. So the mobs were harder to kill back then but it wasnt so focused on hordes of mobs it was a "Less is more" in many cases. Pulling 5 or 6 mobs was a big pull. Now its 40 mobs.

and the scaling of gear is too extreme. I think that because they removed the pvp advantage of gear they also loose one of the primary feedbacks on the scaling. Pvp is an excellent way to get feedback about gear.

they simply made the gear scale too fast and now they try to balance by changing the scaling of the mobs. What they should have done was have smaller advancements on the gear.
29/03/2017 21:10Posted by Deadduchess
29/03/2017 21:06Posted by Waleria
...

dont think elite mobs should be faceroll anyways.


Sure if you are DPS.

Do you know what is fun? Spending 5 minutes whacking a lead ball that just refuses to die, because it has 40% more stats now. Tanks that had 54 traits are nerfed right now for World Questing.


so is everyone else, and you said it your self you are a tank, you think tanks had it easy before or healer for that matter, nope was way harder in other expacs.
but atleast you can do it, healers or even some dps dont stand a chance they can die horribly also.
offcourse I understand killing elites is fun, specialy bosses hehe, but at same time I am not sure it was the best way when it was like that.
Mobs scaling to gear power is dumber than the artifact grind.
29/03/2017 21:15Posted by Elphy
29/03/2017 21:01Posted by Waleria
ah well seems, getting points out is not a good idea here, or having different view eighter.

the funny thing is, people screamed wow is to easy, there is no challenge, and now when there is challenge, par Blizzard said that scaling might be quite off now, people are annoyed about it.
those who played in Vanilla or tbc heck even wrath knows mobs didnt die in 2 shots, it took time and over pulling made you die horribly.

now I am not saying this way is right eighter if people in lower gear is stuggling things need to change.

I know I am gona get downvoted to oblivion about this post but can not realy care.

But I have one question what do you want, stopidly easy mobs to kill or atleast some challenge, or are you just annoyed becuse blizzard didnt tell you about this.


I see what you are saying. But somewhere along the way from vanilla it went from "Killing mobs to get something" to PULLING A !@#$LOAD OF MOBS FOR HOURS to get something. So the mobs were harder to kill back then but it wasnt so focused on hordes of mobs it was a "Less is more" in many cases. Pulling 5 or 6 mobs was a big pull. Now its 40 mobs.

and the scaling of gear is too extreme. I think that because they removed the pvp advantage of gear they also loose one of the primary feedbacks on the scaling. Pvp is an excellent way to get feedback about gear.

they simply made the gear scale too fast and now they try to balance by changing the scaling of the mobs. What they should have done was have smaller advancements on the gear.


this is true, I also think this is due to us having to many raids to do, lfr normal hc and mythic, one of them has to go, and it would already be way easier to scale mobs.
also had they scaled the mobs from EN already, this problem would not have been this big, and most likely way smoother also, but I have to give them credit for atleast trying now, though it might be to late now.
Oh boy, I can't wait to have my face kicked in by a well scaled mob. It's exactly why I waste all that time and RNG dancing to level up, so a random Deer can steamroll me.
From my experience, this change doesn't make the NPCs more threatening to deal with, it just makes them more annoying. Especially the big elites that had too much HP to begin with.

Apparently there is also an increase in damage they do, but I personally haven't noticed it that much, but the extra HP is indeed noticeable and is quite frankly a dumb change. This might come as a surprise, but standing still, pressing your buttons, not paying attention to what's going on and just waiting for the damn thing to die is not really all that fun.

Not to mention that it makes getting better gear (which, last time I checked, is kinda of a big deal in WoW) less rewarding.
At the start of the expansion, the large NPCs were a problem to deal with, and that's fine. However, in my opinion, now at this point of the expansion, it's also fine to be able to just charge in and cut the bastard down in seconds and be done with it.

I honestly don't understand why they couldn't just make the new Broken Shore NPCs tougher and the leave the existing ones alone.
29/03/2017 21:15Posted by Waleria
so is everyone else, and you said it your self you are a tank, you think tanks had it easy before or healer for that matter, nope was way harder in other expacs.
but atleast you can do it, healers or even some dps dont stand a chance they can die horribly also.
offcourse I understand killing elites is fun, specialy bosses hehe, but at same time I am not sure it was the best way when it was like that.


Let me repeat it for you with BIG BOLD LETTERS.
In 7.2 I got NERFED based on the fact that I dare to have a lot of gear. I also got a second wave of "meh" because the new shiny trait everyone got for +10% Damage is not shiny or new for me, because I had 54 traits.
Bottom line - I am killing things in WQ as slow, as I did before Emerald Nightmare was Released. The current state of the game (for Broken shores) does not care about the fact that I played and geared for half a god damned year.
Finally gave it all a go on the broken shore. Really don't see what people are complaining about. This scaling does not effect anything that much.

Once removing gear which makes it easier is sorted, there really isn't much of a problem.

Seems a lot of people are on the complain train.
Ion Has_he_cost_us ' i busted pvp, now it's pve's turn' I suppose this might be one way to get players to turn back to pvp. Seems rather nonsensical to me though.
I am more against the concept than the actual effect.

If they want to get rid of ridiculous power disparity between freshly dinged 110 and mythic-geared players, then they should look at the fiasco that is TF + having 1000 difficulties.
29/03/2017 06:49Posted by Watcher


By the end of Mists of Pandaria, for example, the mantid of Dread Wastes that had once been reasonable foes were completely trivial. They'd basically evaporate if a raid-geared player looked in their general direction.


That is the f...ing idea genius. At the beginning you are weak but at the end you should be stronger.
And after you did the same WQ like 10000000000000 times you just want to do it as fast as you can not spend an eternity to kill a f...ing mob !!!
By the end of Mists of Pandaria, for example, the mantid of Dread Wastes that had once been reasonable foes were completely trivial. They'd basically evaporate if a raid-geared player looked in their general direction.


Then nerf raid gear.

Should've been done a long time ago, since gear creep has been running rampant since the end of TBC.

Blizzard really has to make a decision about who they want to cater to. Hardcore or casual.
So you try and sneak this change in, hoping players won't realise that their gear is now completely WORTHLESS outside of instanced PvE content?

Bring back WoD, sure nothing ever happened content-wise in that expansion, but at least you weren't actively trying to destroy the game.
29/03/2017 21:50Posted by Aeula
So you try and sneak this change in, hoping players won't realise that their gear is now completely WORTHLESS outside of instanced PvE content?

its not completely worthless. Not by any stretch.
Revert it.

I've read a majority of the posts here and also talked to some guildies. The majority of us are not happy with the change that scales our ilevel, even if it's just a slight change as you've intended (5 % stronger, but the world gets around 2 % tougher).

We do not want this.

This is not the point of a game geared towards progression.

The whole point of getting higher ilevels and gearing yourself up is to become stronger, and to be able to breeze through past content. Being overpowered is your reward for hard work. This completely defeats the purpose of going the extra mile.
Thanks for the feedback on this issue. It’s clear that we need to make some changes here, so here are our current plans:

  • We’re removing the increase to damage dealt by creatures in the world. Our overall goal with this change is to keep the amount of time it takes to kill a creature from getting ridiculously short, and increasing the damage they deal is unnecessary for that goal. Instead, this was making you feel like they were becoming more dangerous, which was not our intent.
  • We’re significantly reducing the rate at which creature health scales with your item level. Again, all we’re trying to do here is prevent cases where monsters die too quickly for players to react to their presence, particularly around World Quests. Our initial tuning was far more aggressive than it needed to be, which could make it feel like your upgrades weren't actually helping. This change will make it very clear that you are still becoming noticeably stronger than your enemies as your gear improves.
  • Those two changes are already live, and you should be seeing them in-game now.
  • Later today, we’ll be correcting a separate issue that’s causing unequipping an item to drastically alter the power of enemies you’re facing. The above changes make it so that’s never the right thing to do anyway, but this is still a strange/buggy interaction that needs to be fixed.

It should also be noted that this change was on the Patch 7.2 PTR (and has been since January). We didn’t communicate anything about it initially because we wanted to get testers’ raw and honest feedback about it when they encountered it themselves, rather than attempting to pre-empt or otherwise influence their opinions ahead of time. When that feedback never came, we assumed that meant it was an acceptable change – i.e., those who hadn’t noticed it weren’t bothered by it, and those who had noticed it thought it was fine. Clearly that was a false assumption, and we should have drawn attention to it later in the PTR cycle, so that we could have caught these issues before Patch 7.2 went live.

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