Upcoming Mythic Keystone Changes

7.2.5 PTR Feedback
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We’ve been thrilled to see how positively players have responded to Mythic Keystone dungeons since Legion’s release. However, there are a couple areas in which our original design for the system hasn’t quite matched up with how things have worked out in practice. In an upcoming 7.2.5 PTR build, we’re going to try out a couple of changes to how Keystone runs work.

The first big change is that we’re getting rid of the depletion mechanic. We’d originally imagined that getting ahold of a Keystone would be more of a barrier than it is, but in reality, there are so many players participating that it’s generally not too difficult to find someone with a Keystone you’d like to run. In that environment, depleting a Keystone is more of an annoyance than anything else – especially when it happens for reasons outside of your control (such as a player disconnecting).

Instead, we’re going to try the following:
  • Completing the run on time will have the same results it currently does in 7.2: you’ll get a new Keystone for a random dungeon that’s 1-3 levels higher than the one you just completed, based on how quickly you finished.
  • If you complete the dungeon but don’t make the timer, you’ll get a Keystone for a random dungeon that’s 1 level lower than the one you just used.
  • If you don’t complete the dungeon at all, you’ll have a Keystone for the same dungeon that’s one level lower than the one you just used.

The other thing we’re looking to change is the way that rewards are given at the end of a run. Currently, when you complete a run that upgrades your Keystone by 2 or 3 levels, you’re also given a 2nd or 3rd chest. This is because, when we believed that Keystones would be rare, we didn’t want you to miss out on any of the loot you might have collected from the runs you were “skipping.”

However, because of this, players tend to look for lower-level Keystones that they can easily stomp through, instead of higher-level Keystones that are appropriately challenging for their gear and skill. That, in turn, affects who they’re willing to invite. AOE damage output is preferred over everything else, because the only concern is how quickly you can clear through easy trash packs. And gear requirements tend to outpace what actually drops: if you could find upgrades in a Mythic 6, you’ll have a hard time finding a group, because the Mythic 6 groups are full of players who are capable of clearing 10+ and are just looking for an easy 3-chest.

With that in mind, here’s the changes we’re planning to test:
  • You no longer receive additional chests at the end of a run for completing it quickly.
  • When you finish a Mythic+ dungeon, the chest at the end will contain two items and an appropriate amount of Artifact Power.
  • If you beat the timer, regardless of how quickly, there will be a third item in the chest.
  • Keystones can still upgrade by 2 or 3 steps, so you can quickly get to a difficulty level appropriate for you.

Our overall goal with these changes is to incentivize groups to take on dungeons where they know they’re likely to see upgrades, instead of preferring keys that are far too easy for them. Once the Tomb of Sargeras raid is available on Mythic difficulty, we’ll also increase the maximum rewards from Mythic Keystone runs to level 15.
Are the items at the end for each individual person?

and..

Why remove rewards for 'good play' if you beat the dungeon in half the given time ?

also

[an example] A current healer I play with has NEVER seen the healing trinket from black rook hold drop AT ALL let alone item lvl appropriate for him, is there anything that's going on to prevent 'bad luck' in extreme cases like his?

Last edit: What if we group 5 people together, uprade all keys to a lvl where we cannot beat the timer anymore, and decide to "drop" the level by entering, plugging the key and then resetting the dungeon to drop a lvl.

If this happens, many people will never even have others to "carry" them, because there won't be a reason to invite a stranger when you can invite 4 people you know and run a closed group unknown to anybody.
Doesnt this completely defeat the point of beating the timer?
I guess its time to afk on last boss until its only gonna be a +1 upgrade
Are the 3 items shared or for every person in the group?
Good to hear Mythic+ is being looked at, especially for the classes that don't have the means to quickly clear a dungeon.

But to be fair I don't think this will fix anything. With the reward lowered(2 times less items than previous 3 chest), you will most probably see an even bigger focus on improving the efficiency of the runs, since most classes will still have about half of their BiS to obtain in mythic+, so we will probably see an increase in the needs to efficiently clear them.

The only way to fix this issue would probably be to make the higher difficulties worth doing, at the moment once you clean a +10 you don't have any reasons to clear above, I can understand than increasing the ilvl further than the current limit would cause issues, but what about increasing the number of loots when you go higher, maybe for each 2 level above the cap you get one more loot ?
All good changes. But since there are still 2 noteable rewards for clearing a dungeon extra-quickly (50% more loot and saving time to to other stuff) i don't really expect groups to change their invitation policy much.

Even if you removed the timer concept completely, groups would still invite players who allow them to finish fastest and there really is nothing you can do about that; you could, however, remove the second reward (+50% loot) to not doubly reward that kind of approach.

The way Keystones have turned out i really don't think they "need" a timer at all.

What would happen if there was no timer on Keystones and you would always get the exact same reard at the end? It would shift the focus from clearing fastest to clearing hardest, which is obviously what you intend to do with these changes as well. It would, however, allow slower groups to actually reach a point where they simply cannot beat the bosses anymore, instead of grading them down one tier every second dungeon they play.

Would that really be THAT bad? I know a lot of players are genuinly put off by the very concept of a timer to begin with. Is the timer-concept of Keystones the way they work now - and especially the way they will work with these changes - really worth having a timer?

Please consider that.
so why would you ever want to 3chest a +10 for example now. the new keystone you get will still reward the same gear as your old one did so it doesn't matter how much you upgrade it, the only difference is the artifact power gained from your new key, but the actual reward is the same.
getting gear through M+ with this new system must be terrible, only getting 3items for your group instead of 6.
I don't like stomping a dungeon with a 40% chance of not even getting an item, and you gotta realize that those +3runs even happen beyond your maximum itemlvl reward, people 3chest +15's all the time.

maybe a suggestion I have:
Instead of only increasing the AP gained beyond the maximum itemlvl reward, also increase the chance of getting an item? Like getting a +10 intime would give 3 guranteed items and each level beyond could add another 20% chance for an item. So +15 would give 4items guranteed for your group and +20 would give you 5items guranteed
Good for stopping the current boosting of depleted keys, that's about all the positive feedback I have.

When you're farming 10+ keys for a chance at a specific titanforged item, reducing the amount of items that drop is a huge nerf (25-50% for 2- or 3-chesting respectively). Furthermore, this would make it seem that the optimal route to getting gear upgrades would be to wait until the timer ticks down below the previous 2-chest mark. Why would you make the next dungeon harder for no gain at all?

I think this needs some more thought.
Literally every single idea that you suggest, be it class changes, gating justification, legendary rng 'fix' is dumb and now this is absolutely, mind-boggingly, idiotic proposition.
Please hire some developers with an actual brain, not peanuts.

I won't even bother to mention why this change is beyond stupid, because we are on EU forums, nobody reads feedback here anyway.
That is the most hilarious change I have read so far.

So basically you do not want to 3 chest a mythic+ dungeon anymore because the loot stays the same regardless?

Also you can abuse it like hell. Just immagine: do m+7, do m+8 but break it on purpose at the beginning, do m+7 again, and so on.

Where is the challenge beating the timer? Why should I beat the timer? For personal e peen? I don't care big keys. I care for the fastest way to farm artifact power.
> That just happened.
+16 BRH? Walk in -> walk out. Get +15, repeat until +9. Triple chest, onto +12 MoS ty. Mythic plus is broke.
Rlly should change the loot to 1 Item guranteed per Players, else u will have some unlucky times were you dont get loot for dungeons in a row.

I Rlly think u guys at Blizzard underestimate the Loot Incentive for M+.

Sure alot of people do it for Ap, but alot of us are doing It for gear too.

So if u only get 2-3 Items that still have to Titanforge alot to be an alternative gearing path to raids. Should rlly reconsider in my Opinion or else people maybe wont do M+ besides 1 Time a week for the Chest anymore.
Just my Opinion tho

Regards
These are pretty radical changes to a core system and I'm happy you are willing to make them mid-expansion. I also commend you for recognizing the issue of low ilvl players being unable to find spots in runs that would benefit them.

However, I am unsure these measures will help. Let's assume we have your system implemented. Why would a guy that has a level 4 key go with players that have 880 ilvl when he can take guys with 910? I fear you do not recognize the reasons why the high geared players do these keys. It's not because multiple chests. It's because AP, and less so for legendaries nowadays. As long as there's lots of AP in the M+ chests (and it is, I just did a Arcway +16 and I got 7.2M or so), there will b players willing to go for it. If your +2, +5, +7s have enough AP and geared players can stomp them fast, then they WILL stomp them and keep spots occupied.

But, as with any problem, it's good that you at least recognize it. Just iterate more on your solutions. Mythic raiders should not have any reasons whatsoever to do low keys.
03/05/2017 02:16Posted by Lore
When you finish a Mythic+ dungeon, the chest at the end will contain two items


per person or for the whole group?

PS: removing depleted keys is a good change.
These seem like excellent changes to me.
- They will push people into ilvl appropriate content, opening up lower level content for ilvl appropriate players since players outgearing it have less incentive to run it.
- Vastly reduce the ability of trolls purposely depleting keys.
- Reduce the punishment for players dc'ing / having to leave during the run.

The one thing that i disagree with is the "when ToS is released the max rewards will be pushed to level 15".

It should be up to 20 or even 25 NOW already. 10 is a joke for anyone who has been running NH HC (=me). To me, who is raiding at heroic level, +15 should be the MINIMUM i am aiming for each week - and then, who knows, maybe i can get a bit higher. Mythic geared raiders should have an incentive to aim for +20 or higher. This week i 3chested my +11 easily and then figured "meh... no incentive to do the +14..."

+10 now and +15 when ToS is released is much too low, too easy to reach.
I'm here to save you from tears and sorrows.
There is a point to beat the timer (i.e. you beat HoV+10 in 20min, scrub group beats it in 44:43 = you run another one hov+10 and get not 3, but 6 pieces of loot).
@Halda, nonsense. Of course there are greatly superior classes (Affliction warlocks, dks, chainlighting, resto druids even (for bursting affix atleast)) but other classes really shine while some affixes are present (the crybaby shadow priest in the post , the next week is the week when shadow priests shine).
I have no idea why some people cry over getting into mythic+ with low ilvl. Mythic Dungeons originated from players qq on forums how they lack challenge and they need some CHALLENGING and REWARDING dungeon content. If blizzard was to listen to you they would not ever introduce Challenge mode in pandas, which was succeeded with mythic in WoD. If you're low ilvl work for your ilvl - go farm some shards etc - you already got everything you want - you can see content in lfr/rhc if you don't have time.
03/05/2017 02:16Posted by Lore

However, because of this, players tend to look for lower-level Keystones that they can easily stomp through, instead of higher-level Keystones that are appropriately challenging for their gear and skill.


The reason people do this is because they know that they can get crazy titan forged gear for 10x less effort than doing a +15.

You are looking in the wrong areas for fixes, mythic + timers and difficulties are not the problem here, because regardless the gear you receive is completely random, you're effectively putting out a fire with lighter fluid here.
Well to be fair, as one of those guys with equip to high for the dungeons i do most of the time (dht/kara 9) it would quite frankly stop me from spamming them.

At the same time it would also stop me from bothering with m+ all together, i'd pretty much only push high once a week for ap or probably only a +10 for weekly chest.

Looking only briefly at that new system there are quite a few outstanding issues right from the start:

1. Beating the timer by more than +1 becomes pretty much meaningless, extra ap is all nice and dandy but tbh, people only ever did +3 for the loot.

2. Because of +3 becoming meaningless and that "don't complete to downgrade" stuff some... "funky behaviors" will become normal, like going afk at the end of the dungeon to just finish intime or starting a new dungeon and resetting 3 times in a row right at the start to be back at +9

3. The loot allready feels kinda unrewarding at times. For example im doing nothing but dht +9 spam for 2 weeks now, to get thar fire relic with windstrikes on it. Dropped a whooping 2 times in something close to ~50 runs. Once it was the same itemlevel as mine and the other time it titanforged to 915, the warri that got it did not want it but could not trade it either way. With only 3 items at the end of the dungeons i would at that point have seen it drop a single time (yeah i know stuff does not work that way). Not entertaining.

I seriously can't see how anyone profits from that new system. It's mostly the same for undergeared and/or terrible groups, but way worse for everybody else. Changes not benefiting anyone in an obvious way, and in that case i really have trouble seeing a... "not obvious?" way tend to be ill-received.

Edit: I do like the removal of depleted keys though.
Unless i am massively mistaken, this doesn't seem to make any sense.

10 key > upgrade by 3, then beat the 13 key = 6 bits of loot total.
10 key> upgrade by one level 3 times and beat each level = 12 bits of loot.

Then just deplete the keys down with your 5 man group and start over again. Either i am mistaken or this is ill-thought.

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