Upcoming Mythic Keystone Changes

7.2.5 PTR Feedback
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03/05/2017 02:24Posted by Rénátákí
If this happens, many people will never even have others to "carry" them, because there won't be a reason to invite a stranger when you can invite 4 people you know and run a closed group unknown to anybody.
That might actually be the point they want to achieve, the whole world of carrycraft isn't exactly something to be proud of. The emergent gameplay of premade tank + healer + 2 dps + carry or tank + 3 dps + carry (new affixes and fighter chow nerf curbed the "no healer runs" mostly though) isn't what everyone imagined m+ was about, it was supposed to be about making friends and running a 5-man organized group through a challenging dungeon for people who don't have big enough group to make a raid.

I applaud the attempts to curb the aoe roflstomping focus in both the new affixes and these changes, in hopes to open the m+ to bigger spectrum of classes and specs and to alleviate the problem you need to have 20-30 ilvls more than the dungeon drops to be even considered for an invite.

However there is still work to be done in incentivizing running high keys, atm they're ran for peanuts a.k.a. wowprogress score (something completely not recognized and not sanctioned in-game), I've read few ideas about making keys above "weekly chest cap" drop extra loot or have extra chance to warforge, maybe you should consider it.

The problem with high-end keys is the time to clear goes up (often drastically) while the reward doesn't go up past some arbitrary level (like keystone lvl 10 or 15). Once people get enough gear from TOS and surroundings to zerg a 15 they will go back to zerging a 15 with aoe classes even if their max capability would be a 20 or a 25, because there's absolutely zero incentive to do so. Extra AP? Why get extra AP from a dungeon that takes twice as long to complete when you can run 2 easy ones instead, especially with less chance to fumble as it's easier.

Extra AP as the carrot doesn't cut it. You yourself designed concordance trait scaling in a way to disincentivize nolife AP farming and incentivize waiting for AK levels. AP can't be a reward when it's intended to have hefty diminishing returns to keep power creep in check. You need to devise a different reward. One that people will be happy to get and eager to step up to the challenge to actually obtain it. For fake token reward they won't. In few weeks / months we'll be back to "boosting your 15 keys, link plz" in group finder.
You reduce the max amount of loot by 50% How is this going to stimulate anyone to push a key as far as possible instead of just doing a single 15 for the week and be done for the rest of the week?
I don't quite understand all of the changes here.

I can't deny that some parts are appealing. A bad group that depletes a key/someone who ruins it for you doesn't mean that you're done for the week with your own key and it does give people more chances for loot in the long run if you can't progress pass a certain level. But on that last point, people will not push keys as much. Maybe just for the sake of doing it, sure, but at a certain point there's no reason to aim for any more than a +1 upgrade on your keystone.

Is this just making the M+ system into a method of farming gear rather than an actual challenge for people to push themselves with?
In my opinion, the key should be depleted after you fail to finish the dungeon, but for short ammount of time, for example to the next daily reset. It woudn't hurt so much it does now and it would prevent to abuse that by intentionally leaving to get lower key which may upgrade to something easier later.
Another changes I like very much, hovewer I'm pesimistic about ilvl requirements, especially as a dps role, it won't change in my personal opinion.

Apart from this thank you for taking your time to make our mythic+ runs better and making them even better experience it is now :)
So maximum-loot per run cut in half....

And boost groups are dead as they no longer need stones aside from their own....

I used to run M+ without stable group thanks for killing all competent groups for me.
03/05/2017 03:24Posted by Bemused
I used to run M+ without stable group thanks for killing all competent groups for me.

You mean you used to get carried all the time by much better geared players? While you would systematically refuse to play with others at your own ilvl?

You think that is normal?

No, they didn't killed competent groups for you. They only killed you getting carried. You'll have to find competent players/groups at your own item level now. You'll be fine.
You're directly nerfing one of the two main reasons people run mythic+ (the other being AP), and for what? Because people are apparently choosing to run lower level keystones over higher level ones? But did you stop for a moment to consider exactly why that is? It isn't because lower keys are easier and you can more pieces of loot from them, it's because at this point in the expansion the "appopriate" challenge level for a even a fully geared Heroic-equivalent player is probably 13 or above. And yet, there is no difference in the item level of gear dropping between a 10 and literally anything above it. In my experience people do not even clear under a 10 because what's the point? +10 is easily 3 chestable at the moment, and it gives the greatest level of loot so there is no incentive to push higher. If +13 gave 900+ loot do you think I would be caught dead in a +10? No way because I'd probably only drop 1 chest and gain 10 ilvl on each piece of loot.

Your approach does nothing to remedy the above situation for which I have already provided the appropriate solution (rescale the loot rewards), and as for people selectively choosing which classes to take to m+, this has and will always be the case- it has nothing to do with how many chests or items or whatever are in the dungeons, it's to do with the fact that a dungeon is made up of a series of trash packs which therefore naturally favours AoE classes. If you wanted to resolve this issue you would need to actually reduce the overall number of mobs in each dungeon and buff boss hp which would then swing the pendulum the other way.

The new AP scaling was a great addition and honestly I feel really helped resolve the monotonous one dungeon grind paradigm that existed. Those who do m+ primarily for AP are now able to do a much more varied selection of dungeons without their time efficiency being massively penalised, which has also given them the freedom to target different dungeons. It also pushed the focus from grinding lower keys to actually taking on higher level keystones which is actually the aim of an issue that apparently still exists. So perhaps you should reassess exactly why people run m+ in the first place and consider the effective solutions you have already put in place.

tl;dr the bottom line is that nerfing loot will only push more people away from grinding m+ and for those that remain nothing at all will change. People will still "stomp" the highest difficulty they can comfortably do speedily because time efficiency will still be a thing without a chest system. Why do a +13 when I can do a +10 5-10 minutes quicker and get the same ilvl loot?
03/05/2017 03:28Posted by Ruìn
03/05/2017 03:24Posted by Bemused
I used to run M+ without stable group thanks for killing all competent groups for me.

You mean you used to get carried all the time by much better geared players? While you would systematically refuse to play with others at your own ilvl?

You think that is normal?

No, they didn't killed competent groups for you. They only killed you getting carried. You'll have to find competent players/groups at your own item level now. You'll be fine.


I run with 910+ ilvl demonic build dh
I can promise you I pull my weight
But I'm not in raiding guild or part of any stable M+ so with this I'm stuck either getting one or running low keys... lovely

Also nice day to you too.
My mind just can't..... I am speechless
so... I already don't run mythic dungeons a lot, because I'm tired of the RNG garbage system. This incentivizes ppl to not bother with lower key dungeons AT ALL, playing a key up as high as you can for weekly AP and then stopping. On top of that more RNG garbage seeps through, baiting for easy dungeon keys to constantly repeat pushing higher keys, trying to get easy dungeons.

NOTHING about this sounds like fun, does it?
Keys not getting depleted but downgraded is fine. But then the issue of spamming 8-10 lvl keys for loot comes up and it's much easier.
Here's an easy solution from somebody who is not a professional designer and not getting paid to come up with ideas to fix your !@#$:
Lock people to specific keys, so they can't get loot on the same or lower key levels anymore once they ran a player's key. If somebody had their key downgraded, they'll still get new people to join in, because they can get loot and the person with the downgraded key can be happy to have their key upgraded again and be eligible for loot again.
There. %^-*ing easy fix to the biggest problem that might come up with the new no-deplete system.

Also, from a business standpoint this change doesn't make sense... it doesn't keep your customers to grind (and play the game) for longer, except for maybe a small hardcore percentage and it's just frustrating and not rewarding for the rest who will just maybe take a look at other games that don't want to ruin having an enjoyable experience.

I just can't help but be rude... that this went up on the drawing board and has been okayed by (probably) multiple people is just borderline retarded.

I started playing again with Legion after a years-long break and I'm honestly considering stopping again, because of the awful decision making that's been going on lately. People warned me that blizz doesn't listen and is sometimes dismissive to condescending towards feedback of paying customers, but now I'm honestly seeing the incompetence myself.
To be honest I'm just insanely salty for 50% loot nerf. With this, it will be more than likely that you can go several successive runs with 0 loot.

And no, AP doesn't feel like much of a reward and gold is just a joke.
I really like the first change, the second one however kinda kills it, its basically a gear nerf. If you wanna make mythic plus less popular then yeah sure this is the way to go but please dont...

Although the first change kinda kills groups wanting to boost people because of there key to you mentioned groups being picky I only agree with that at higher level. The easier lower level keys you're talking about people boost lower item leveled players through so they can use there key so I think you're wrong there too.
03/05/2017 02:16Posted by Lore

With that in mind, here’s the changes we’re planning to test:
  • You no longer receive additional chests at the end of a run for completing it quickly.
  • When you finish a Mythic+ dungeon, the chest at the end will contain two items and an appropriate amount of Artifact Power.
  • If you beat the timer, regardless of how quickly, there will be a third item in the chest.
  • Keystones can still upgrade by 2 or 3 steps, so you can quickly get to a difficulty level appropriate for you.


Are the items in the chest at the end of the run 2 or 3 per player or group (one is a big nerf and the other one is a big buff) didnt realy understand if its per group or per player.
And in what way does these changes make me wanna do a +20 instead of a +15 (atm +10) if the cap of gear is still at +15?, I will run a pushed key once a week when we get more AK to get the big chunk of AP from the weekly chest and then I will be back to spam boosting +15 as the most effective ap/gear alternative.
The thing about not having a reward tied to speedrunning the dungeon dont realy make any sense to me, why shouldnt player X who did HoV in 15 min get a bigger reward than player Y that did it in 40 mins? Why shouldnt ppl that invest time,work and consumables to cut corners in an instance be rewarded ? Sure u save time and AP+Gear/h becomes higher if u speedrun and that one keystone each week that u push will be faster to lvl up but other than that will it be worth to throw gold and time on preparation ?

The change to depleted keystones seems like a good change that I think will remove alot of headache people have when they realy need to leave a group in the middle of a keystone dungeon, people sometimes have things outside WoW that needs immediate attention and this system makes it less punishing.

Note that I am not anyway close to a mythic+ expert and dont realy find it fun exept maybe for the few keys I boost my friends in, I find it more of a chore I have to do to stay competative in raiding, having some relics only drop in mythic+ aint realy a good design in my opinion. But i guess around 50% of BiS items comes from mythic+ and the other 50% from raiding so guess mythic+ runners have the same problem as I when it comes to tiergear and trinkets.
With these changes it makes me even less exited about running mythic+, but it does make it less painful if I dont do it but knowing myself and alot of other raiders we will still do it to upgrade our characters.
(English aint my native language so u will probably find alot of things wrong with the text ^^)

Greetings Alm
Going by their past record 2-3 loots for each player is way too much to expect, that would mean 10-15 drops for each run. (they already nerfed droprates for m+ early in legion)

Simply put it's not gonna be that way. :(
These changes are a mixed bag. On the one hand it's excellent that something is being done to address the speedrun-stomping of lower level dungeons that came to dominate the Mythic+ metagame, but at the same time the halving of potential loot drops is an awful nerf to the rewarding nature of the experience.

The main reason people became so intent on stomping low level dungeons was because without three chests at the end the rewards just didn't feel worthwhile (especially now that AP is a lot less desirable to grind). The baseline reward of a paltry two items split between the entire group just feels super lame. Completing a very challenging dungeon and getting nothing to show for it beyond a bit of AP isn't a great experience.

I was hoping the unrewarding nature of Mythic+ loot would be addressed rather than removing the only method of combating the limited number of drops. If the baseline was good in the first place and beating the timer by a significant margin only marginally improved it, then the problems Mythic+ faces would've been a lot less pronounced. Right now you can triple the rewards by doing well. If you could only improve them by, say, 20-40%, then speedrunning would still be incentivised without feeling quite as mandatory.

Given the wildly random nature of Legion's loot upgrade viability in the first place, I don't think it would be at all unreasonable for a dungeon to reward every member with one guaranteed item at the end of a run, with perhaps the chance of one or two more drops if the dungeon is beaten quickly (or increased AP rewards).

Right now I often only do one or two Mythic+ dungeons a week for the chest, simply because doing more doesn't feel worth it (and I'm not a fan of speedrunning dungeons I massively overgear). I fear this change as currently proposed is only going to further cement that playstyle of mine. I really want to be able to run multiple dungeons a week without having to either speedrun less challenging content, or accept that I'm unlikely to get anything useful out of them.

TLDR:
Incentivising dungeons appropriate to your gear level = good.
Disincentivising Mythic+ as a whole by severely neutering how rewarding it is = bad.
I just really want to say thank you for trying to put less emphasis on the "fast fast fast, rush rush rush" kinda gameplay. It was the major turnoff for me when it comes to mythic Keystones. Regardless of how much AP I can grind with it, its not fun to me to rush through it.

I hope this change makes it through. Thanks.
You also should reward players with a higher chance of warforged and titanforged loot when they complete a really high dungeon.

So if you play a +10 you have the same warforged chance as normal.
Playing a +11 increases it by 10% and so on.
So players will be motivated to play higher keystones.

Nothing is more demotivating than completing a +20 with 2 chests and get 4 times 890.
People are already complaining that its more efficient to just upgrade a key by 1 to farm more loot. Using Warforged and titanforged as motivation to play at a high level seems like a solution.
Hope the loot is 2 items per player (well atleast one item each), its already getting real bad with AP being almost useless. None will care about AP in 7.2.5 and this change will remove even more from M+ runs. Its already getting hard to find players for m+ since more and more wont even care about their weekly.

You want us to run higher keys but there is no reward for it. You can't expect us to see more AP as a reward in 7.2.5 since we will all have all the traits before that (also AP scaling in higher dungeons is too low).

I hope the goal isn't to make us only run a +15 for weekly. Because it will be real hard to find enough tanks and healers when reward from the dungeon is nothing.
I don't see your logic in game design anymore. First you implement an ilvl scaling on enemies around the Broken Isles. Now you come up with this new "solution" (which never had any problem in the first place) which removes all reasons to be skilled in mythic keystone dungeons. The bonus chests method was to promote gear and skill checks, with this new "idea" nothing of it matters. You can might as well afk in the entire dungeon and complete it just before the timer ends.

What I'm seeing here is a massive nerf to get loot. They want you to gear up much slower by creating even lower chances for gear, one more annoying RNG part. This is all so that they earn more money in subscription fees, by letting players play longer.

Don't expect Blizzard to revert this, they never listen to the community.
You didn't really think this through did you?

If there are no additional rewards for +2 or +3-ing a key, why do anything over +1? You just end up ramping up difficulty quicker for no added benefit. If this system is implemented, the optimal way to do a chain of M+s with a premade group would be to afk in front of the last boss until the timer drops below the +2 mark. If you ever get an unfavorable dungeon (ex. BRH) you either deplete your key to drop down difficulty to a facerollable point (<10) or run it super slow and get your key "rerolled" after completion.

How is it not obvious that this newly proposed system is far more open to abusive behavior than the current one?!

Sure, this whole thing makes it easier to either carry or include less geared people in your group, but what about those of us that actually enjoy the current "speed attack" kind of M+ style? Surely your data can attest to the popularity of M+ so why cave in to the vocal minority that doesn't like it? Also, needless to say, reducing the amount of maximum loot drops hurts both parties.

Not that I have any data to back this up (thanks for making those sub numbers non-public -.-), but I've always felt that the M+ system is one of the few things this expansion got somewhat right and that it is a very large contributor to people's continued tolerance of the current grind-fiesta. Doing away with a lot of the appeal of this mode would, in my opinion, be a massive shot in the foot.

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