Upcoming Mythic Keystone Changes

7.2.5 PTR Feedback
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I like the Change to the depleted Stones. But i think the rest completely misses the point. You'll want to do Dungeons as fast as possible. No matter the reward. You'll always take the best ppl you can get. There are ppl looking for 900+ just to start rnd-hc-dungeon. they want to do it fast. that's the point. fast. you can't change m+ in any way to prohibit that. with nerfing the rewards you only get ppl to stop doing m+. it's not that good at the moment (only reason is gear) by nerfing it ppl just plain stop doing it.

there is always a best class and in this game more gear is always better. so ppl will always search for this. it is the nature of the game. you can't change this or you have to change the game.

so a.) get a max ilvl requirement for low keys (can't enter e.g. +5 with gear over 870 except its your key - which would lead to noone doing those) b.) live with the game as it is. You can't make a system that suits all ppl. thats plain not possible. so sometimes you just have to roll with some disadvantages for the greater good.
This is going to really reduce any incentive I have of running what is currently the best system in the game by far in my opinion, here are the main reasons in my opinion:

(all of these are for a PoV of a tank btw)

  • The timer is an extremely engaging mechanic in my opinion. It rewards team work and good gameplay. From a tanking perspective, knowing that I have to push my limits while always looking at home my group is doing is much more engaging an challenging than any other content I have access to (granted - never tanked Mythic raiding). The new affixes especially are very cool because they don't care about the content difficulty - bolstering is only scary at high levels, because a +3 add with 5 stacks is no larger than a +13 with forti. But Bursting hurts just the same on a +3, and explosive punishes just the same on a +7 as it does on a 15.
  • With the AP changes introduced in 7.2, by the time ToS releases, AP rewards are going to matter very little. This is a very smart and welcome design decision in my opinion. It makes me only run instances I like running (for eg - i love running the new HoV now, and try to always have my highest run there).
    Gear is the main reason I run content throughout the week. The chances for me to get an upgrade are low (my eq ilvl is 903) but it's also the best way for me to get the gear I need.
  • I would suggest that the fact that I can get a reward for running things I can out gear is actually a huge benefit to the game. It makes me interact with more people. If all I cared about was pushing the hardest I can, I would only run in guild groups. I have met more of the playerbase running "lower" keys than I would have ever ran without this system. It's a huge win for an MMO that it has a mechanic that gives such great incentives for the population to mix like this. IIRC this was also why they introduced titanforging in the first place - so you will be cool running lower content for social reasons.

With the new suggested system however:

  • The chance for good loot is just completely dead. For eg - I am currently farming NLs for either the chest or the boots. I always run with at least one other plate wearer to increase chances. I've ran maybe 25-30 9's and 10s in the last few weeks trying to get them, and only seen them drop a few times, and never an upgrade. Now - this makes sense - the loot table is large, and I need it to titan forge. But it also meant that I was able to run with people that could use my help, and as mentioned before, with new affixes, good gameplay is just as critical on "lower" keys. With new system, I will have a 3rd of the chance to get the gear I need. I am better off farming nether shards and rolling on relinquished gear at this point.
  • AP wise, it is better for me to run a 7,8,9 then a 7, 10. Since there is no reward for getting a better timer, I am better off getting one chest each time. More gear, more AP. But with gear drop rates nerfed so much, and AP meaningfulness going so low, I don't see any reason for me to even bother. I will run 1 run a week for the lowest key I can get max ilvl reward for (15 presumably) and call it a day. Why should I care if it upgrades?
  • As mentioned in other comments - this mechanic highly incentives trying to cheat the system. Having my key downgrade is a blessing. If I get a "bad" key (say - Arcway on forti week), I will just deplete it and try again.
    I am so sad about this change I can't even say. It will make the best thing in Legion for me to simply go away.....
Essentially this changes nothing for those that simply farm m+ for gear other than cut the amount of gear we receive in half. For maximum efficiency, we will still be running keys that give loot at the item cap (10 right now), simply because going any higher will take longer, without giving any extra reward. If you want us to actually do higher level keys, they need to drop higher ilvl or more loot.
A better system to would be to add some sort of extra bonus for completing a dungeon with appropriate gear.

e.g. a +5 should require 870. so if you finish it with a group of 865-875 gear on average you get a extra chest and double AP. so if you can get 3 chests with appropriate gear you get 4 chests and double ap. if you get it in time you get 2 chests and double AP. and that should go up to lets say +20 where you need 915. so 910-920 geared group will get a extra chest and double AP.

Yes this is not quite intuitive. And the LFG tool needs to be reworked quite a bit to help you build such groups. but imho thats the only way you get that problem solved.

in the LFG you could add some kind of "traffic light" you start a group an "hook" your key to the group. so the LFG system knows what key it is. than someone who applies will get a red (way to much gear) yellow (ok if the rest of the group is lower) green (you fit perfectly) and the one creating the group will get red (your group is to high) yellow (be aware its better to get someone with lower gear) green (your group is fine)
I saw a lot of people already suggesting this but wouldn't it make sense to make higher keystones to drop extra pieces of loot if you want to incentivize people to do higher level keys? atm the extra ap is underwhelming and therefore by nerfing the amount of loot you get you just unincentivize doing mythic+ in general.

if I do a 11 key atm instead of a 10 why would I do that? Why would the new system make me wanna do the 11 key instead? It doesn't. It just makes me want to do both less. (obviously when tomb releases it's gonna be 15 vs 16 but still the same point)

The new depletion system is dope don't get me wrong I just don't see how you think you incintivize doing higher level keys with the system you had just proposed.
The group I run weekly with can easily 3 chest a M+10 atm, with these changes its more benificial in terms of easy to get highest possible ilvl loot by just waiting at the final boss till the timer drops to a "1 chest" so we only got to 11. Then we just clear the 11 with the same rule, the 12 with the same rule and we end up with more loot than 3 chesting it and an easier time in the whole of it.

Maybe make it so that each added affix also allows for a bonus chest to spawn, except for the first 1. So at +7 you can get 2 and at +10 you can get 3. Gives people more incentive to go for the higher ones since that gives the most loot.

As for the key level degredation, sounds painfull for those who want to push the really really high lvl M+, 1 mistake and you go down a level again.

Edit: Just realised that combining these 2, we can just 3 chest the first one and then intentionally deplete the new keystone a few levels while we do other things and go for an easier loot run again.
With the ability to drop keystone levels, you should really add some other way to do it than starting a dungeon and resetting it. Otherwise, when we spam our 10 keys and drop them from 13 back to 10, we not only have to spent time doing a silly thing like that, we also will hit the 10 resets per hour if it takes less than 20 min. average per dungeon (which it usually does).
To me this sounds like if you want loot from Mythic + then it's best to keep the same group and just keep going on the same key, regardless of if you finish in time or not.

This is both a good and a bad thing, it's good because you won't get to a point where you have a dead key, but bad because it means you have to play more to get the loot.

I mean I guess this is good for Blizzard because you know, people play more.

It also means however that if you want to do M+ for loot then you will find yourself stomping through it, then just sitting and waiting at the last boss to make sure you only get a 1 chest, I mean that can be a 20+ minute wait in Arcway or HoV....
For the love of god, dont set it at 3 items per dungeon.
A much more reasonable number would be 5, 1 for each member.

Relics with my speccs best trait only dropp from Arcway(not in any raid after EN).
So i spamm Arcway 10+ to desperatly optimize, since gear is capped there anyways. If you limit the already tiny odds of getting a specific item, this wil be soo much harsher.
Am I the only one concerned about the fact we'll now get only 1 legendary chance instead of 1-3? And ultimately cumulatively this means people running M+ will have a far worse chance of getting legendaries then they have now?
That aside, I run my m+ with almost the same group of people, friends and guildies cause I wanna do it as quickly as possible to get more loot and legendary chances, we rarely invite a 5th person to our group, but even then it's based on their class if anything and the basic understanding that if you can't get 900 ilvl, it's kinda your fault. I don't want you to ever make me run lower ilvl geared players in content they are supposed to gradually move onto, find people to do it with regularly like I have and get used to wiping in m+. You're basically creating a shortcut for people where as all of us had to go over months of wiping, trying and getting used to M+. I'll still do it with the same group of people, but you're making me have to run 3X as much M+ to make it even for me to get a legendary from it.

Also, you created the AP system where we have to farm AP which most people do via M+ and then you tell us you want us to go and choose dungeons cause of gear instead of stomping through them? We're doing it for the AP since most of the people running M+ regularly aren't looking for upgrades in instances. I won't run CoS or Arc for an upgrade over another dungeon cause your WF and TF system made it impossible for me to know if an upgrade will drop or not. A base level of 890 when I'm 910 isn't an incentive to go for upgrades, but it if happens - yay me. I don't think you'll see the change you are hoping to get with this so buckle up and get ready for abuse of key depletion, no change in who gets invited to groups and a pissed off community.
03/05/2017 02:30Posted by Nathasil
All good changes. But since there are still 2 noteable rewards for clearing a dungeon extra-quickly (50% more loot and saving time to to other stuff) i don't really expect groups to change their invitation policy much.

Even if you removed the timer concept completely, groups would still invite players who allow them to finish fastest and there really is nothing you can do about that; you could, however, remove the second reward (+50% loot) to not doubly reward that kind of approach.

The way Keystones have turned out i really don't think they "need" a timer at all.

What would happen if there was no timer on Keystones and you would always get the exact same reard at the end? It would shift the focus from clearing fastest to clearing hardest, which is obviously what you intend to do with these changes as well. It would, however, allow slower groups to actually reach a point where they simply cannot beat the bosses anymore, instead of grading them down one tier every second dungeon they play.

Would that really be THAT bad? I know a lot of players are genuinly put off by the very concept of a timer to begin with. Is the timer-concept of Keystones the way they work now - and especially the way they will work with these changes - really worth having a timer?

Please consider that.


Yes, That would be AWFUL.

It would go down to Bloodlusting after every pack,
This change makes no sense from a player perspective. I think there seem to be several misunderstandings on the developers' part.

1)A higher keystone is not a reward. I dont care about somebody else in my group getting a higher keystone. My own keystone is very unlikely to be used in my runs, seeing that I get nothing out of using my own keystone. I might as well look in group finder and see if anything strikes my fancy. Keystones are abundant at all levels, as you have said so yourself, so I do not care about keystones or keystone levels at all. I do not consider getting a +2 or +3 keystone a reward at all. It is completely meaningless to me. If I want, I can run +10 dungeons with randoms all day. Or +12. I simply do not care.

2) Pushing for AP is not worth it. There should be a clearer and less delayed incentive to complete mythic+ dungeons beyond getting a few million more AP a week later.

3) Loot still stops at +10, so there is no good enough reason at all for anybody to push keystones beyond +10. All this does is make mythic+ farming for loot more annoying and require boosting groups looking for certain relics/trinkets to boost even faster, further exacerbating the need for quick clearing.
I like that you can't deplete a keystone anymore
I like the changes to the keystone upgrades/downgrades, though I feel there should be a lockout on an uncompleted Keystone before you can "downgrade" the dungeon level of a keystone you don't want to do. Otherwise people will just abuse this and reset the dungeon until they get a keystone level they feel they can upgrade 3 levels in hopes of a better key and discourage people to "test themselves" in more challenging dungeons for their group/comp.

Suggestions:
1. Set a timer for the half/full duration of a keystone timer before it can be reset.
2. Set a maximum amount of resets per hour (this would encourage people to push the key if they make a mistake on the run or have a disconnect and not punish them by lowering their key)
Yo, I think this is an amazing change and I'm happy you guys are implementing it!
First of all I must say I really enjoy m+,
But I think you are focusing on wrong aspect in this changes

1-) You don't want people to get in dungeons with high ilvls and zerg everything to have a room for new players it is understandable but let me ask you a question.
Why would I want to do level 21 dungeon if i will get the same loot with level 10 ?
I only want to do it one time for a 3rd part site change my m+ score and have competetion because not every player have a chance do mythic raiding.
So if you make like a gap which rewards higher ilvl when dungeon gets higher the ones that overgear m+ 6 level key will do higher keys and it is actually more fun for them.
2-)RNG is the factor pushes high geared people in lower keys.With a good RNG a guy can get 925 gear from a normal, regular, +0 mythic dungeon !?!?!? Really ? I am doing high keys either I dont even get loot or get 890!? seriously if you wanna adress the issue either reduce the titanforging chance in lower level keys or remove it completely.But seems like the game is completey based on RNG you wont even think about this change just saying this is how unfair I feel when do high keys.

Overall what i would like to see as an active m+ player would be getting higher ilvl rewards when i do more difficult content as you can see level 10 keys are not equally difficult with level 17 keys but they reward the same so why would I run level 17 instead of doing 10 ?And getting more artifact power doesnt help i mean it,because in time that i seek for proper composition and players for a high level key i can just do 2x another dungeon and get artifact power plus AP is hardly worth grinding because it is infinite.
Play more pay more.
Most people who boost specific 3 chests, are either people phishing for specific items (thus 3 chesting is giving them 3x the chance for looting the item they want from that dungeon) or are people hunting for AP/weekly.

The last named ones wont care for the change, more-over they will likely rejoice, because now they can they in a locked 5 man group and their own keys over and over again.

The people phishing for a specific drop are the ones who will hate the new system. (Warning: arbitrary numbers) If they "boosted" 5 dungeons before in 2 hours, they got 30 pieces of loot. With the new system they will get 15 pieces. So basically, you will half the chance of getting the upgrade they tried getting. It doesn't matter that they can push for up to +15 mythic in the future. The restriction is time / loot..

I would advise an incentive that will warrant 1 drop per person if cleared 3 chest time. So instead of randomly having the chance to get x-number loot assigned by the system, give us the opportunity to earn one warranted item. That would still reduce the number of loot from 6 vs 5, if you compare "live 3 chest" vs my idea - but, there is garantied chance of loot for each person.

TL:DR: Reducing the possible loot from 6 to 3 items is a huch kick in the !@# for people trying to get upgrades. It doesn't matter that m+15 loot will once again be introduced. I advice an incentive to warrant 1 loot per person instead to still enable loot hunting
Good that i don't care for Mythic+ dungs. It's worthless effort at least for me.
These changes to me seem otherwise really good except that reaching the max item level on gear (+10 or higher) is ridiculously easy right now. When ToS opens +15 is even easier to "just complete in time".

There still is no reason to go higher than the level that gives max gear and the ceiling for that is way too low. The difference of going as high as i can vs just doing a weekly 10 is around 5% of a level in ap.

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